The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[mrolonzo]

Here's the first article quoted by mrolonzo above. the discrepancy that he sees as proof of foul play is 93k, so perhaps it's not even worth going on but I'll do it

(PDF) How Many Jews Are There in the Soviet Union - PDFSLIDE.NET

8/14/2019 How Many Jews Are There in the Soviet Union 1/7HOW MANY JEWS ARE THERE IN THE SOVIET UNION?By JOSHUA ROTHENBERGBefore the population census in 1959, estimates of…

pdfslide.net

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so basically the number of Jews in RSFSR decreased from 900k in 1941 to 875k in 1959 . The author expects that number to be above 1 million given natural population growth and Jewish east-west migration. he factors in Jewish deaths caused by the Nazis here


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I should add here two additional possible explanations.

More than 100k were killed (historiography has evolved here since the 1960s, particularly in eastern regions I believe)

Soviet censuses were inaccurate to a certain degree, so we can expect small fluctuations in the numbers

And as a point of comparison mrolonzo's explanation: Soviet authorities "deleted" Jews from the records but accidentally "deleted" a little bit more than they needed to



To clarify, the study estimates that out of 2.65 million Jews in the USSR, 10% were concealing their identities. So 90% were completely ok with not hiding their Jewishness. And as I said before, the study says that only assimilated Jews would be able to get away with this. This does not apply to any deported Jews from Poland or Western Europe.

So this point has nothing to do with proving the Soviets doctored the census results and at best shows that a miniscule percentage may have stayed quiet out of fear of revealing their Jewishness. The only revisionist explanation mrolonzo has left is that the USSR silenced these witnesses by force or threat

It's just further evidence of intention to hide and a conservative estimate of numbers, meaning it's plausibly alot more. So you're where did they go argument dwindles and dwindles. Plus you have no bodies west or east, no mechanism for gassing, no budget, no plan, no orders. Basically you're fighting for survival like your jewlanteans, watching the water creep slowly in shouting "there's still a holocaust!".

 

[Aves]

The article says the figures are conservative but you still haven’t answered why 2 million+ Jews were willing to answer their census honestly if Jews feared antisemitism, like you said previously.

The figure also does not account for Jews sent east specifically by the Nazis, many Jews just ran eastward. Even if we doubled the number, you would only get 500k.

You are claiming hundreds of thousands of Jews are keeping a secret which would unravel the entire holocaust, and not a single one of them has ever been found or spoke on it?

 

[History Speaks]

Yeah I do recognize that "special treatment" is used in some documents relating to Auschwitz, or other Nazi stuff, in a non-homicidal sense. This is not surprising since - again - "special treatment" is not just a Nazi code word, has a plain-language meaning that does not mean to kill.

If you see "special treatment" (Sonderbehandlung) written in a Nazi document, you should, a priori, recognize there is a strong chance that the document refers to killing. Then you have to look at the context (the document as a whole, eyewitnesses, other documents, etc) to see whether the code word or the plain-language meaning is being used.

I most certainly do not concede that all references to special treatment in Auschwitz documents are benign. For example the 29 January 1943 memo from Swobada referring to crema 2 as being capable of "cremation with simultaneous special treatment" is a reference to homicide.

In the case of the Swobada document, the relevant context is that another document refers to Crema 2 as a "gassing celler", all eyewitnesses say it was a homicidal gas chamber, holes have been found in the roof of the building, etc. So we can infer that "special treatment" in this context refers to the code-word for killing.

 

[Aves]

And another thing mrolonzo

Read this:

“According to the Soviet Census of 1959, 2,268,000 persons declared themselves members of the Jewish community”

And this :

“In summing up our calculations we come to the conclusion that the number of Jews who lived in the 1959 in the Soviet Union was at least 2,500,000, and probably between 2,600,000 and 2,650,000”

Your own article says, at most, there could have been 382,000 Jews hiding. This does not explain the rest of the Jews deported east, nor does this account for specifically Jews deported by Nazis.

 

[mrolonzo]

Yeah I do recognize that "special treatment" is used in some documents relating to Auschwitz, or other Nazi stuff, in a non-homicidal sense. This is not surprising since - again - "special treatment" has a plain-language meaning that does not mean to kill.

You have to look at the broader document to figure out whether "special treatment" means the code-word for killing (which was frequently used, as Mattogno acknowledges) or is being used in a plain-language sense. But when you see "special treatment" in a Nazi document you should, a priori, recognize there is a strong chance that the document refers to killing. Then you have to look at the context (the document as a whole, eyewitnesses, other documents, etc) to see whether the code word or the plain-language meaning is being used.

I most certainly do not concede that all references to special treatment in Auschwitz documents are benign. For example the 29 January 1943 memo from Swobada referring to crema 2 as being capable of "cremation with simultaneous special treatment" is a reference to homicide.

In the case of the Swobada document, the relevant context is that another document refers to Crema 2 as a "gassing celler", all eyewitnesses say it was a homicidal gas chamber, holes have been found in the roof of the building, etc. So we can infer that "special treatment" in this context refers to the code-word for killing.

Why is there a strong chance it refers to killing? The book you quoted, Mattogno literally states there's no criminal enterprise in any of this.

Ok. Let's talk about crema 2 and this swobada document and your eyewitness statements. . Feel free to bring it.

And another thing mrolonzo

Read this:

“According to the Soviet Census of 1959, 2,268,000 persons declared themselves members of the Jewish community”

And this :

“In summing up our calculations we come to the conclusion that the number of Jews who lived in the 1959 in the Soviet Union was at least 2,500,000, and probably between 2,600,000 and 2,650,000”

Your own article says, at most, there could have been 382,000 Jews hiding. This does not explain the rest of the Jews deported east, nor does this account for specifically Jews deported by Nazis.

It's a conservative estimate. It takes pains to state that. So again, your stupid holocaust dwindles away, dodgy number by dodgy number.

 

[Aves]

It's a conservative estimate. It takes pains to state that. So again, your stupid holocaust dwindles away, dodgy number by dodgy number.

No, not the 382k. The paper itself says that the number was at least 2.5 M, which is the “conservative estimate” they give. Their maximum estimate they offer is 382K.

And this still doesn’t account for specifically Jews deported east by Nazis.

And you also haven’t explained why 2 million Jews were willing to answer to the survey honestly if they wished to hide their identity due to antisemitism.

 

[mrolonzo]

The article says the figures are conservative but you still haven’t answered why 2 million+ Jews were willing to answer their census honestly if Jews feared antisemitism, like you said previously.

The figure also does not account for Jews sent east specifically by the Nazis, many Jews just ran eastward. Even if we doubled the number, you would only get 500k.

You are claiming hundreds of thousands of Jews are keeping a secret which would unravel the entire holocaust, and not a single one of them has ever been found or spoke on it?

Not every jew fears anti semitism obviously. Just a significant number. Likely especially those who've been chased out. The article states the tumult some will have went through.

Hundreds of thousands of jews in post soviet Russia keeping quiet ?! Impossibru!

No, not the 382k. The paper itself says that the number was at least 2.5 M, which is the “conservative estimate” they give. Their maximum estimate they offer is 382K.

And this still doesn’t account for specifically Jews deported east by Nazis.

And you also haven’t explained why 2 million Jews were willing to answer to the survey honestly if they wished to hide their identity due to antisemitism.

And those jews are un holocausted, thus more proof there wasn't one.

Those 383k is nearly half a million.

Say goodbye to your holocaust.

 

[Chugger]

@mrolonzo

The article states these figures are conservative.

Judging by the article the upper bound figure is 15% , but this applied to assimilated Jews, not Jews from the pale of settlement (Poland)

you blow this out as evidence that near to 100% of the deported Jews may have concealed their identities (and not just on the census or publically, but in their private lives and after the fall of the USSR)

Not at all. You simply force confessions. Tell tall tales and pretend that people are in the ground. It requires little effort.

They successfully destroyed or covered up all documentary and witness evidence of one the largest deportations in history. This alone is unprecedented

Ive conceded that nazis can use special treatment for executions and various other activities.

Do you also concede that they use the term 'resettlement' as a code word for mass killing civilians?

It's just further evidence of intention to hide and a conservative estimate of numbers, meaning it's plausibly alot more.

It is scholarly conjecture that some Jews had the intention to hide their identities, but says nothing of the USSR's intentions

Those 383k is nearly half a million.

Say goodbye to your holocaust.

If you want to say 15% of the deported Jews concealed their identities and thus what happened to them in WW2 I won't argue that point, but then you're still left with 85% of millions of people according to Mattogno and co

 

[Aves]

Not every jew fears anti semitism obviously. Just a significant number. Likely especially those who've been chased out. The article states the tumult some will have went through.

Hundreds of thousands of jews in post soviet Russia keeping quiet ?! Impossibru!

But the article only explains, at most, 382k. If a million or so Jews were sent east, there still exist hundreds of thousands of Jews not scared of flaunting their Jewishness who were deported.

This does not fit in your theory that the Soviet Union tried to censor all deported Jews, and the Jews hide their identity to avoid Soviet grasp.

The article also does not account for Jews sent specifically by Nazis, Jews could have genuine non-deported reasons to hide their identity. 380k Jews feared antisemitism is an easy explanation.

Plus, Jews are nearly impossible to censor anyways. I got that from a friend of mine

Your theory also makes no sense. If many Jews didnt fear antisemitism already in the Soviet Union, there would be no reason for new Jews to fear anything if they moved to heavy Jewish areas. Jews would also talk to one another about their deportations, raising the number of people “in the know.” Jews tell other Jews about the evil Nazis talking all their money from the banks, now more people know if deportations.

 

[Chugger]

What about post-1990 when any surviving Jew deported into the USSR by the Nazis would've been eligible for reparations?

eg https://www.timesofisrael.com/germa...st-victims-living-in-the-former-soviet-union/

they were so committed to their fake gentile existences that they passed up the opportunity for free money. i guess being Jewish is only a state of mind after all

 

[mrolonzo]

@mrolonzo

Judging by the article the upper bound figure is 15% , but this applied to assimilated Jews, not Jews from the pale of settlement (Poland)

you blow this out as evidence that near to 100% of the deported Jews may have concealed their identities (and not just on the census or publically, but in their private lives and after the fall of the USSR)


They successfully destroyed or covered up all documentary and witness evidence of one the largest deportations in history. This alone is unprecedented


Do you also concede that they use the term 'resettlement' as a code word for mass killing civilians?


It is scholarly conjecture that some Jews had the intention to hide their identities, but says nothing of the USSR's intentions


If you want to say 15% of the deported Jews concealed their identities and thus what happened to them in WW2 I won't argue that point, but then you're still left with 85% of millions of people according to Mattogno and co

The authors are at pains to stress the conservative nature. Add that to the numbers problem and you've got no holocaust at all when combined with all the other stuff. You're sunk.

But the article only explains, at most, 382k. If a million or so Jews were sent east, there still exist hundreds of thousands of Jews not scared of flaunting their Jewishness who were deported.

This does not fit in your theory that the Soviet Union tried to censor all deported Jews, and the Jews hide their identity to avoid Soviet grasp.

The article also does not account for Jews sent specifically by Nazis, Jews could have genuine non-deported reasons to hide their identity. 380k Jews feared antisemitism is an easy explanation.

Plus, Jews are nearly impossible to censor anyways. I got that from a friend of mine

Your theory also makes no sense. If many Jews didnt fear antisemitism already in the Soviet Union, there would be no reason for new Jews to fear anything if they moved to heavy Jewish areas. Jews would also talk to one another about their deportations, raising the number of people “in the know.” Jews tell other Jews about the evil Nazis talking all their money from the banks, now more people know if deportations.

The hundreds of thousands unaccounted for are easily caught up in the factors undermining a true figure as stated in detail. Plus all the other factors.

And no many Jews wouldn't fear but alot would given their experience or the problemsthey'd heard about. . So again. You're sunk. Your vague notions about Jews talking is just pathetic.

The best you can do now is try and deny the issues and pretend the lack of bodies etc etc isn't a problem.

What about post-1990 when any surviving Jew deported into the USSR by the Nazis would've been eligible for reparations?

eg https://www.timesofisrael.com/germa...st-victims-living-in-the-former-soviet-union/

they were so committed to their fake gentile existences that they passed up the opportunity for free money. i guess being Jewish is only a state of mind after all

Or many didn't feel the need or urge to make stories up post 1990 and just wanted to move on.

 

[History Speaks]

You talk of a "lack of bodies" but we have found a huge number of bodies and lots of mass graves.

What about a lack of buildings? You have zero buildings or any other kind of infrastructure evidencing this supposed "resettlement" (Jewlantis), a nation of millions.

Or was Jewlantis merely a city of 800,000? (I am not sure how many you think were deported to Reinhardt camps, or why you do not trust Korherr and Höfle's data on this.)

 

[Chugger]

The authors are at pains to stress the conservative nature.

What are you not understanding about this?

“According to the Soviet Census of 1959, 2,268,000 persons declared themselves members of the Jewish community”

And this :

“In summing up our calculations we come to the conclusion that the number of Jews who lived in the 1959 in the Soviet Union was at least 2,500,000, and probably between 2,600,000 and 2,650,000”

If 2.27 million declare themselves Jewish on the census, and there are actually 2.5 million Jews in USSR -- roughly 250k or 10% didn't report as Jewish on the census . the conservative estimate

if there were 2.65 million (the highest estimate they provide) then roughly 400k or 15% chose not report

Or many didn't feel the need or urge to make stories up post 1990 and just wanted to move on.

Anyone who fled the Nazis can receive money. So Soviet Jews that evacuated ahead of the German advance, or Jews who emigrated from Germany before the war even started are eligible.

Therefore Jews who had all their property and valuables seized and then deported into a foreign ultra anti-semitic country would also be eligible

EDIT: Oh yeah, what's your response to the question of whether the Nazis ever used 'resettlement' as a code word for mass killing? and if so, why did they use it?

I think I've asked you this question several times.

 

[Aves]

The hundreds of thousands unaccounted for are easily caught up in the factors undermining a true figure as stated in detail. Plus all the other factors.

And no many Jews wouldn't fear but alot would given their experience or the problemsthey'd heard about. . So again. You're sunk. Your vague notions about Jews talking is just pathetic.

The best you can do now is try and deny the issues and pretend the lack of bodies etc etc isn't a problem..

What factors exactly?

You are also assuming that every single Jew who refused to tell their religion was deported east. There are many reasons as the article states for a Jew to never reveal their ethnicity other than hiding their deportation. This easily applies to Jews already in the east.

You also imply that the Soviet Union had a plan to censor every deported Jew. Do you have any evidence they did this plan?

You are also ignoring how 400k Jews all unanimously agreed to say “let’s never talk about this deportation again to anyone, including never write a single memoir or leave any evidence of us.” This would be a massive conspiracy that only some kind of superhumans could manage. No group of people this size would successfully pull this off without a shred of evidence leaking.

 

[History Speaks]

The only way for the Soviets to effectively "censor" these people - i.e. prevent literally 100% of them from never talking or writing about their extraordinary experience of being ethnically cleansed, robbed, and "resettled" in Russia during the middle of World War II - would have been to kill them.

Are you suggesting that the Soviets exterminated the Jews sent to the Reinhardt camps, Zo?

Or are you suggesting that we just accept as a normal and plausible thing the idea that over 99% of the Jews sent to Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka - including famous artists, writers, Olympic athletes, etc - disappeared without a trace?

 

[Tree]

The best way to confirm a phenomenon is to replicate it.

But I'll say again, is it so hard to believe that an inherently honorable people would want to hold to account an inherently conniving people? It would be dishonorable not to, as clear as the case against them is. The consequences of the leniency and goodwill shown towards them since the war have only reinforced the case many times over.

That said, the story which is commonly told, not to mention the conclusions which have been drawn from it, is much more a lie than not, to the point where stating the holocaust didn't happen is closer to the truth. Such is the extent of the shameless opportunism and embellishment surrounding this event.

 

[Bonesjones]

The only way for the Soviets to effectively "censor" these people - i.e. prevent literally 100% of them from never talking or writing about their extraordinary experience of being ethnically cleansed, robbed, and "resettled" in Russia during the middle of World War II - would have been to kill them.

Are you suggesting that the Soviets exterminated the Jews sent to the Reinhardt camps, Zo?

Or are you suggesting that we just accept as a normal and plausible thing the idea that over 99% of the Jews sent to Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka - including famous artists, writers, Olympic athletes, etc - disappeared without a trace?

Are you suggesting the Soviets didn't kill millions of people?

 

[Chugger]

Are you suggesting the Soviets didn't kill millions of people?

I think HS is saying that it's more reasonable the Soviets killed the "resettled" Jews than somehow silenced them through other means or it just happened that way

this is true probably, I agree

perhaps, in a masterstroke of genius, the Soviets killed them at the sites of the former Reinhard camps and destroyed the bodies--this would explain the cremains archeologists found

 

[mrolonzo]

You talk of a "lack of bodies" but we have found a huge number of bodies and lots of mass graves.

What about a lack of buildings? You have zero buildings or any other kind of infrastructure evidencing this supposed "resettlement" (Jewlantis), a nation of millions.

Or was Jewlantis merely a city of 800,000? (I am not sure how many you think were deported to Reinhardt camps, or why you do not trust Korherr and Höfle's data on this.)

Vague nonsense. You had ample opportunity to dazzle codoh with your alleged bodies and mass graves.

I literally just posted an example of the the nazis arranging sending barracks east on trains, along with utensils and blankets. You ignored it like you always do.

I literally just posted Challen's analysis of Koherr. I posted Sanning, and Benz and even Ryan Faulk video to explain the issues here.

What are you not understanding about this?

If 2.27 million declare themselves Jewish on the census, and there are actually 2.5 million Jews in USSR -- roughly 250k or 10% didn't report as Jewish on the census . the conservative estimate

if there were 2.65 million (the highest estimate they provide) then roughly 400k or 15% chose not report


Anyone who fled the Nazis can receive money. So Soviet Jews that evacuated ahead of the German advance, or Jews who emigrated from Germany before the war even started are eligible.

Therefore Jews who had all their property and valuables seized and then deported into a foreign ultra anti-semitic country would also be eligible

EDIT: Oh yeah, what's your response to the question of whether the Nazis ever used 'resettlement' as a code word for mass killing? and if so, why did they use it?

I think I've asked you this question several times.

1. Right. So you've got about half your alleged missing people right there. That's not even counting those who actually did die.

2. Ok. Alot of Jews didn't have much in the first place and don't feel like making up stories decades after these events. Still, quite a few do make up or embellish vague stories as we see in Yad Vashem. Alot of Jews were evacuated by the Soviets, so further undermining the your need for "stories to prove existence otherwise the holocaust really happened you guise" ...

3. This resettlement code word crap is too vague. It's therefore a ruse foisted by desperate peddlers like you to explain the lack of determination to commit mass murder. Page 2 of this thread is instructive. Recognise anyone Chugger? Was this the time you'd decided to come clean or before that?

What factors exactly?

You are also assuming that every single Jew who refused to tell their religion was deported east. There are many reasons as the article states for a Jew to never reveal their ethnicity other than hiding their deportation. This easily applies to Jews already in the east.

You also imply that the Soviet Union had a plan to censor every deported Jew. Do you have any evidence they did this plan?

You are also ignoring how 400k Jews all unanimously agreed to say “let’s never talk about this deportation again to anyone, including never write a single memoir or leave any evidence of us.” This would be a massive conspiracy that only some kind of superhumans could manage. No group of people this size would successfully pull this off without a shred of evidence leaking.

1.
a. Unwillingness to report being a jew
b. Death by starvation
c. Death by execution by the nazis as partisans.
d. Death by execution by local anti semite
e. Disappearance by becoming a Christian
f. Death by participating in the Soviet military campaign
g. Death by disease
h. Death by natural causes various

2. Fuck off with your accusation about my implications.

3. No it would not be conspiracy. It would be normal. Everyone in the society had gone through alot, be they gentiles or jew. So their troubles would not be special moreover everyone of that time was more used to a rough life and would simply be happy to enjoy the fruits of peace. The people who actually did extensive testimony were also, in prominent cases, also those with , shall we say "interesting" character.

The only way for the Soviets to effectively "censor" these people - i.e. prevent literally 100% of them from never talking or writing about their extraordinary experience of being ethnically cleansed, robbed, and "resettled" in Russia during the middle of World War II - would have been to kill them.

Are you suggesting that the Soviets exterminated the Jews sent to the Reinhardt camps, Zo?

Or are you suggesting that we just accept as a normal and plausible thing the idea that over 99% of the Jews sent to Belzec, Sobibor, and Treblinka - including famous artists, writers, Olympic athletes, etc - disappeared without a trace?

1. It would not need a conspiracy. It would be normal. Everyone in the society had gone through alot, be they gentiles or jew. So their troubles would not be special moreover everyone of that time was more used to a rough life and would simply be happy to enjoy the fruits of peace. The people who actually did extensive testimony were also, in prominent cases, also those with , shall we say "interesting" character who were happy also to imagine fantastic events. There will be some of those in any population. The rest are far more quiescent.

2. Forget about stupid notions of Soviets exterminating Jews just to try and win one over on me HS.

3. Yes, I am suggesting that. You have to. We've been over the problems with the numbers and there's very little in the AR camps. Ive focused my attention on Belzec evidence in particular, including the surrounding stories. There's nothing there.

I think HS is saying that it's more reasonable the Soviets killed the "resettled" Jews than somehow silenced them through other means or it just happened that way

this is true probably, I agree

perhaps, in a masterstroke of genius, the Soviets killed them at the sites of the former Reinhard camps and destroyed the bodies--this would explain the cremains archeologists found

You think it's easier for the Soviets to kill hundreds of thousands of people for being Jews when they've literally got Jewish commisars throughout their military ranks than for people to just shut up about the war and get on with their lives like everyone else did.

Very little was found at the AR camps, plus the execution method was stupid I.e. made up ad hoc nonsense, the testimonies have been analysed in great detail, the camps weren't secret anyway and revisionists have even traced the development of the propaganda stories at the time anyway.

 

[Chugger]

@mrolonzo I want to continue asking you about resettlement but we can discuss some other things first

Very little was found at the AR camps,

To get into specifics, do you think that Kola's investigation at Belzec was conducted honestly and competently, therefore showing that indeed there is "very little" evidence of mass burial at that camp? (if you believe the investigation was dishonest or incompetent no meaningful information can be gleaned from it, whether pro or anti revisionist )