The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[mrolonzo]

Whenever I meet a holocaust denier I'm somewhat tempted to force them to watch Borat in its entirety, 1 and 2, with me. Just so I can trick them into witnessing this scene on full volume.

Borat is simply a jew wishing to stop other people's free speech while lampooning others as he sees fit.

He's an absolute rat.

 

[Bonesjones]

Whenever I meet a holocaust denier I'm somewhat tempted to force them to watch Borat in its entirety, 1 and 2, with me. Just so I can trick them into witnessing this scene on full volume.

Whenever I meet a holocaust promoter, I always ask why they don't express any gratitude for the millions of people who died to save them from oblivion? How awful the jews are to not express one iota of thanks for the sacrifices made on their behalf. Are they so evil and selfish that they refuse to do so or is it because of the guilt they feel for knowing it's all a lie?

 

[Chugger]

Whenever I meet a holocaust promoter, I always ask why they don't express any gratitude for the millions of people who died to save them from oblivion? How awful the jews are to not express one iota of thanks for the sacrifices made on their behalf. Are they so evil and selfish that they refuse to do so or is it because of the guilt they feel for knowing it's all a lie?

It seems you have a fantastical view about what most "Holocaust promoters" believe. Going by the orthodox version of events, 95% of the Jews in the Nazi domain died, and the white people that ended up sheltering a substantial number of them in Soviet held territory were fighting against the Nazis for their own biological existence. There was no 'sacrifice' for the Jews' sake.

Nor are Jews typically disrespectful of the Soviet contribution in the war (with the exception of rabid anti-communist types who have a biased view of history)

It is however true that Jews are resentful about the general disinclination of US/GB/Canada to admit Jewish refugees eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Borat is simply a jew wishing to stop other people's free speech while lampooning others as he sees fit.

He's an absolute rat.

He's a comedian. Admittedly, his funniest bit is pearl-clutching about racism while doing a yellowface act.

 

[mrolonzo]

It seems you have a fantastical view about what most "Holocaust promoters" believe. Going by the orthodox version of events, 95% of the Jews in the Nazi domain died, and the white people that ended up sheltering a substantial number of them in Soviet held territory were fighting against the Nazis for their own biological existence. There was no 'sacrifice' for the Jews' sake.

Nor are Jews typically disrespectful of the Soviet contribution in the war (with the exception of rabid anti-communist types who have a biased view of history)

It is however true that Jews are resentful about the general disinclination of US/GB/Canada to admit Jewish refugees eg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MS_St._Louis

Yes this is interesting but comes from a limited, deeply ignorant and lazy perspective. Firstly, Jews were indeed liberated by the Soviets though of course Jewish people in fact decided to evacuate with the nazis (yes....the people who had been supposedly killing them and treating them with extreme cruelty) and secondly the Soviets were obviously anti white, anti slav even when not actually in the midst of combat with them or in the employ of military tactics. Most anti white anti slav actions done by the Soviets were done in relative peace, or occupation, just in case these whites, these slavs should ever pose a threat in future.

Slavs and whites of all kinds were persecuted on the basis not of past crimes but of possible future crimes by Soviets. This continued for decades and as soon as the Soviets showed weakness, with the USA no longer interested in supporting them - they were thrown off.

But of course, being a communist is an inherently anti white and anti slav point of view. Thus these people were and are the true enemy of whites, slavs and all mankind whereas nazis are whites, slavs and all mankind's only true friend because in the end we will protect you from capitalism, and from communism and preserve your race, religion and identity.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

Weird they didn't find any Jewish bodies just Christian ones. You fucking idiot.

Every camp in contemporary footage looks exactly the same because it's dirt and gravel, you retarded fucking liar.

Who is "they", some source you/some other Holocaust denier fabulist deliberately misread to support some silly premise? The only way you can tell a Jewish body apart from a Christian body is DNA testing OR the manner in which it was buried. Like even I will admit that there's a chance some of the mass graves attributed to the Einsatzgruppen are generic massacres of non-Jewish civilians instead and the actual Einsatzgruppen massacre they correspond with is actually somewhere nearby. Hell, if there wasn't a mountain of backing documentary evidence for Nazi antisemitism and their intent to massacre Jews, then you could plausibly say that a lot of the millions killed in the Holocaust were actually Slavs.

…You don't really know anything about national socialism or being a nazi or actual nazism or the ideology so quit whining, no one gives a fuck.

I know enough about Nazism to know that you don't actually follow the ideology of Hitler et. al but only some vague fantasy aesthetic. That's why you refuse to accept the actual truths about Nazism in practice.

Mostly just communist agitators creating partisan activity behind the lines by Stalin ordering civilians to participate and Germany dealing with them.

OUN weren't communists, they were fascists who idolized the Nazi regime but even they eventually turned against them until it was obvious they were about to be destroyed. Similar story with attempted Polish Nazi collaborators (all of them ended up dead or turned against the Nazis) or the Chetniks. Your take on partisan activity in Eastern Europe has zero basis in facts.

I did explain it. There are only about 133 actual bodies in graves arranged haphazardly in limited space therefore dug well for environmental reasons by Gypsies who, being transient, would dig graves in various places as they came and went.

Gypsies don't dig graves that deep, and nobody digs that many graves that deep for 133 people who accidently died at a transit camp. The irony is stunning when people like you claim the Holocaust doesn't make sense but then pedal theories like this. So once again, why are the graves empty?

When the best you've got is "it sure is convenient" that's a suspicion at best.

Mattogno's view is that there well have been an execution there. Just nothing like the numbers claimed and more in line with the anti partisan executions of the time. Which would make sense as it's just outside Kiev. But sure go ahead and prove us all wrong. The ground isn't even closed off. You could go there right now and start digging and sending us photos as no one else has ever done since, even get core samples and send each one to a lab as again, no one has ever done since.

Mattogno's view lacks evidence since the Nazis gave estimates on numbers they killed there as well as reasons they killed so many people there. And once again, plenty of eyewitness--German, Russian, Jewish alike--to what occurred. It's plenty reasonable a large city like Kiev (3rd largest in the USSR IIRC) would have a large populations the Nazis might need to kill.

As for why there's no archaeological verification, you would know Babi Yar was the site of an industrial accident that dumped a huge amount of pulp and was later restored with no concern to its past. So until better evidence comes out, I'll take the Nazis at their word they killed tens of thousands of people there since it's the most likely story. Well, that and other way too many convenient things aligning (like posters telling Jews to gather their valuables and assemble on a nearby road on the day of the first massacre) to doubt the "official" story.

Lol even the booklet titled Der Untermensch praises various Slavic peoples and anyway Stalin deported more Poles than the nazis anyway.

In no world is what I quoted "praise." That is some serious delusion. Also nice on the "well Stalin was WORSE" argument that Nazis love using when cornered.

I can refute a point or not where it's clearly established. Sure creating a vaccume is indeed deadly, but you can't just make shit up to suit the story, and zyklon b while harmful isn't like a nerve gas. It's literally a slow release pesticide that was poured out carefully on clear floor space for delousing clothing.

Zyklon B releases HCN vapors when heated to around room temperature (as would occur in a packed space because of body heat) and in a confined space, people can rapidly consume the oxygen by intaking it into their bodies. Try and learn science before you try and claim science supports your argument.

Sorry but it's the most detailed study in existence on these ovens by far.

If that's what you claim is the "most-detailed study", then I shudder to think of the poor scholarship of some of the other claims. I guess Holocaust denial is like creationism where you have your Ken Ham types who at least pretend like they're doing research and then your Kent Hovind types who jusst fling shit at the wall.

He's in the camp for some time. He'd know who many of the the officers are. Many inmates did, they even praised the garrison doctor.

Not a camp officer, numbskull, a high-ranking SS officer IN GENERAL

Easily, the germans had a number of implacable enemies who were interested in atrocity propaganda.

Indeed, Allied perception. You know Germany didn't start ww1 but expect everyone to believe the allies were being reasonable the 2nd time around just because.

Still doesn't make sense when the Nazis committed an enormous litany of war crimes. Even if you claim it's all made up, why make up a bunch of additional highly specific stories about killing Jews? Why not just say the population of Poland was massacred regardless if they were Polish or Jewish and not make up details about Nazi antisemitism or death camps specifically built for the Jews? The Holocaust being made up to villify Germans simply doesn't make sense.

"I saw wildfire burn marks on vacation once"

"Those graves are deep"

"If you suck air out you can gas them all"

Indeed, you don't know. Which is why you perform like this.

Still waiting on you to refute any of these claims. But hey, if you'll deny the actual accounts of eyewitnesses and the actual perpetrators of the Holocaust, what's denying a few posts on the internet to prove your point? Hopefully one day you'll see your own dishonesty.

1/ "Pits were overflowing" but the bodies found are at the bottom

2/ Vague rubbish about some people being smaller due to the prior 20 years therefore; the holocaust, is just laughable.

3/ How actually does history work? Do you think an event can be possible merely on the basis that a number of people say it happened? Is that how history works?

1) The bodies are not found at the bottom, they are found throughout the volume. Further, years of groundwater infiltration would break down and compact bone and ash to produce a different sight than was witnessed in the 1940s.
2) It's not rubbish at all because it's 100% true. People who grow up in deprivation, like almost 9 years of it for instance, grow up smaller. For instance, many modern day South Sudanese young adults are shorter than historic South Sudanese, despite being part of historically the tallest race in the world (Nilotic people) because of the famines during the civil war. In Europe this was proven by 1930s physical anthropology measuring the people of Poland. Once again, can you actually prove this claim wrong, or is it disregarded since it trashes your argument?
3) Yes, if the people who said it happened were the people who directly took part from the camp guards to the prisoners to the liberators of the camps to the civilians who snooped around in the area and knew something was up. That's a LOT of eyewitness testimony which is why your ilk have to resort to lying about what was said, when it was said, and claiming ignorance of a particular detail somehow proves the eyewitness was wrong about everything. Eyewitness testimony has been important to history since Ancient Greece and China, where codifiers of studying history like Thucydides and Sima Qian placed value on personal testimony--and just who those people were.

The evidence trail isn't muddied, it's hidden. That said, there are numerous ways for a serious historian to attack a problem like this and therefore the research has been done and is still being done. Recently most impressive is the research on the "work" of Danuta Czech, this is the woman who really got the Auschwitz fable going by mis representation of events and records.

There's nothing hidden about the Holocaust, because the vast majority of . Anything unknown is not being cited by the people you foolishly claim are "serious historians" (they are neither historians, nor revisionists, but instead more akin to a flat earther or creationist) who cannot argue without misrepresenting source material.

These are not the only problems stemming from the location of the graves.
Kola’s and Robin O’Neil’s maps (documents 4 and 5 in the Appendix) show mass graves scattered at random all over the camp, without any particular orientation or order. It is not necessary here to invoke the proverbial German pedantry, which has been well discussed by Rudolf Reder. On his map, in fact, the mythical 30 mass graves all have the same shapes, dimensions, orientation, and are properly arranged in two parallel rows.

This is simply a matter of common sense: An orderly arrangement of the graves would obviously have allowed more efficient use to be made of the limited space available within the camp, and a better hygienic protection of the camp personnel. It is no exaggeration to claim that, if the camp commander had had the mass graves dug in such an irregular fashion, he would have been shot for sabotage. Unless, of course, he had peculiar artistic inclinations. Many graves shown by Kola have, in fact, the oddest shapes!

Carlo Mattogno - Belzec

They are not scattered at random, they correspond to the area behind the crematoria in the western/northwestern area of the camp as well as earlier (or later?) graves in the western part of the camp. This has something to do with the soil conditions at Belzec which is rather sandy. This sandy soil made the mass graves collapse in on each other, explaining the odd shapes. Space was not totally limited either, since at least one grave extends beyond the bounds of Belzec.

 

[Bonesjones]

It seems you have a fantastical view about what most "Holocaust promoters" believe.

No I just hold them to what they say is true, no matter how stupid or contradictory.

Going by the orthodox version of events, 95% of the Jews in the Nazi domain died, and the white people that ended up sheltering a substantial number of them in Soviet held territory were fighting against the Nazis for their own biological existence. There was no 'sacrifice' for the Jews' sake.

Why would we go by Orthodox versions of events when they aren't even proven? I only go by the hard facts, which is why I disregard everything without physical evidence. Eye witness accounts can be mistaken and fabricated, just like documents. Not being able to point to 6 million corpses is impossible to debate.

So all those French, British, American, Russian, Polish, African, Etc soldiers dying to stop the Nazis, didn't sacrifice themselves in the machinery of war to stop the hell bent on genocidal Nazis? I think you just said the quiet part out loud again.

Nor are Jews typically disrespectful of the Soviet contribution in the war (with the exception of rabid anti-communist types who have a biased view of history)

So the jews respect the efforts of other jews and not of anyone else? How jewish of them. Oh wait you said the quiet part out loud again.

It is however true that Jews are resentful about the general disinclination of US/GB/Canada to admit Jewish refugees eg

So jews are mad at white people for not giving them everything they want? I thought we were answering the question of why jews refuse to thank white people from saving them from oblivion? Weird how you go off on a victim blaming tangent yet again. It's almost as if your whole goal in life is to support Jewish communism and find blame with everyone else. Shocking, I know.

Who is "they", some source you/some other Holocaust denier fabulist deliberately misread to support some silly premise? The only way you can tell a Jewish body apart from a Christian body is DNA testing OR the manner in which it was buried. Like even I will admit that there's a chance some of the mass graves attributed to the Einsatzgruppen are generic massacres of non-Jewish civilians instead and the actual Einsatzgruppen massacre they correspond with is actually somewhere nearby. Hell, if there wasn't a mountain of backing documentary evidence for Nazi antisemitism and their intent to massacre Jews, then you could plausibly say that a lot of the millions killed in the Holocaust were actually Slavs.

What is this source directly in my post, could it be an overview of "excavations" and investigations of Belzec. You lie like you breathe you duplicitous retard.

So you admit that murders attributed to the holocaust could be mistaken and are actually attributed to other sources? Whoops we are done here. You've destroyed your own argument yet again.

Why is arguing with jews so easy, they lie so much with no backing that they constantly defeat themselves and hope no one notices.

 

[Chugger]

Yes this is interesting but comes from a limited, deeply ignorant and lazy perspective. Firstly, Jews were indeed liberated by the Soviets though of course Jewish people in fact decided to evacuate with the nazis (yes....the people who had been supposedly killing them and treating them with extreme cruelty) and secondly the Soviets were obviously anti white, anti slav even when not actually in the midst of combat with them or in the employ of military tactics. Most anti white anti slav actions done by the Soviets were done in relative peace, or occupation, just in case these whites, these slavs should ever pose a threat in future.

Slavs and whites of all kinds were persecuted on the basis not of past crimes but of possible future crimes by Soviets. This continued for decades and as soon as the Soviets showed weakness, with the USA no longer interested in supporting them - they were thrown off.

But of course, being a communist is an inherently anti white and anti slav point of view. Thus these people were and are the true enemy of whites, slavs and all mankind whereas nazis are whites, slavs and all mankind's only true friend because in the end we will protect you from capitalism, and from communism and preserve your race, religion and identity.

damn this is utter gibberish even by your standards, congrats . the unrelated attachments are the cherry on top . go spend time with your kids (I think you mentioned you're a father). most here would be thankful for what you have

Why would we go by Orthodox versions of events when they aren't even proven? I only go by the hard facts, which is why I disregard everything without physical evidence. Eye witness accounts can be mistaken and fabricated, just like documents. Not being able to point to 6 million corpses is impossible to debate.

Do you believe the NKVD killed hundreds of thousands of people ? The vast majority of these sites haven't been excavated or even studied.

So all those French, British, American, Russian, Polish, African, Etc soldiers dying to stop the Nazis, didn't sacrifice themselves in the machinery of war to stop the hell bent on genocidal Nazis?

Not to save the Jews no.

 

[Bonesjones]

damn this is utter gibberish even by your standards, congrats . the unrelated attachments are the cherry on top . go spend time with your kids (I think you mentioned you're a father). most here would be thankful for what you have


Do you believe the NKVD killed hundreds of thousands of people ? The vast majority of these sites haven't been excavated or even studied.


Not to save the Jews no.

I like how you link to a Wikipedia article featuring a mass grave investigation as its picture, to talk about how the Soviets didn't kill a bunch of people.

Your own wikipedia puts official deaths at atleast 600k from their own sources.

Official figures put the total number of documentable executions during the years 1937 and 1938 at 681,692,[134][135] in addition to 116,000 deaths in the Gulag,[3] and 2,000 unofficially killed in non-article 58 shootings;[3] whereas the total estimate of deaths brought about by Soviet repression during the Great Purge ranges from 950,000 to 1.2 million, which includes executions, deaths in detention and those who died shortly after being released from the Gulag, as a result of their treatment therein.

So again you try to deny communist crimes to make yourself feel better, despite your own sources contradicting you. Again you are a retard. Almost like it's a pattern of you being a retarded tankie at best.

About saving the jews: Guess they should have let all the people they rescued from the concentration camps starve to death instead like the million or so Germans, post war.

 

[Chugger]

I like how you link to a Wikipedia article featuring a mass grave investigation as its picture, to talk about how the Soviets didn't kill a bunch of people.

Your own wikipedia puts official deaths at atleast 600k from their own sources.



So again you try to deny communist crimes to make yourself feel better, despite your own sources contradicting you. Again you are a retard. Almost like it's a pattern of you being a retarded tankie at best.

About saving the jews: Guess they should have let all the people they rescued from the concentration camps starve to death instead like the million or so Germans, post war.

Lol, where do you get the idea that I deny the crimes of the NKVD? I was just saying the majority of those graves haven't been excavated or even studied (no physical evidence), so by your logic don't exist.

The Soviets also excavated mass graves the Germans left during the war, but that doesn't phase you either http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2010/10/mass-graves-and-dead-bodies.html

 

[Bonesjones]

Lol, where do you get the idea that I deny the crimes of the NKVD? I was just saying the majority of those graves haven't been excavated or even studied (no physical evidence), so by your logic don't exist.

The Soviets also excavated mass graves the Germans left during the war, but that doesn't phase you either http://holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com/2010/10/mass-graves-and-dead-bodies.html

You keep bringing up how Soviet massacres murders must not count since they were never properly investigated. Despite the fact they regularly admitted to them and no one but the most retarded tankie denies that. What could your motivation be? It couldn't be to draw parallels that if we think Nazi genocide is fake then so must Communist. Your motivations and thought processes are that of a child.


Oh look you link to the same dumb blog you use for all your resources since you have no independent thought of your own. Scrolling down I notice the same usual forgeries of photos of mass graves. And pictures of dead bodies are just used as emotional manipulation since they are all devoid of context besides what they put on them, which is the usual holocaust promoters M.O.

Again: if the claims can't be independently verified you are only promoting propaganda, which we all know is your true goal.

 

[mrolonzo]

Who is "they", some source you/some other Holocaust denier fabulist deliberately misread to support some silly premise? The only way you can tell a Jewish body apart from a Christian body is DNA testing OR the manner in which it was buried. Like even I will admit that there's a chance some of the mass graves attributed to the Einsatzgruppen are generic massacres of non-Jewish civilians instead and the actual Einsatzgruppen massacre they correspond with is actually somewhere nearby. Hell, if there wasn't a mountain of backing documentary evidence for Nazi antisemitism and their intent to massacre Jews, then you could plausibly say that a lot of the millions killed in the Holocaust were actually Slavs.

There is no mountain.

I know enough about Nazism to know that you don't actually follow the ideology of Hitler et. al but only some vague fantasy aesthetic. That's why you refuse to accept the actual truths about Nazism in practice.

Ok, what is Hitler's ideology, where do you get this from and where does this differ from my view?

OUN weren't communists, they were fascists who idolized the Nazi regime but even they eventually turned against them until it was obvious they were about to be destroyed. Similar story with attempted Polish Nazi collaborators (all of them ended up dead or turned against the Nazis) or the Chetniks. Your take on partisan activity in Eastern Europe has zero basis in facts.

OUN werent most partisans either so your weak point is refuted by itself.

Gypsies don't dig graves that deep, and nobody digs that many graves that deep for 133 people who accidently died at a transit camp. The irony is stunning when people like you claim the Holocaust doesn't make sense but then pedal theories like this. So once again, why are the graves empty?

Sure they do. That's why they are that deep. Probably helps prevent looting too.

Why are they empty? Whats wrong with a grave being mostly empty?

Mattogno's view lacks evidence since the Nazis gave estimates on numbers they killed there as well as reasons they killed so many people there. And once again, plenty of eyewitness--German, Russian, Jewish alike--to what occurred. It's plenty reasonable a large city like Kiev (3rd largest in the USSR IIRC) would have a large populations the Nazis might need to kill.

As for why there's no archaeological verification, you would know Babi Yar was the site of an industrial accident that dumped a huge amount of pulp and was later restored with no concern to its past. So until better evidence comes out, I'll take the Nazis at their word they killed tens of thousands of people there since it's the most likely story. Well, that and other way too many convenient things aligning (like posters telling Jews to gather their valuables and assemble on a nearby road on the day of the first massacre) to doubt the "official" story.

Lol

https://codoh.com/library/document/babi-yar-critical-questions-and-comments/en/

In no world is what I quoted "praise." That is some serious delusion. Also nice on the "well Stalin was WORSE" argument that Nazis love using when cornered.

Yeeeaahh the point about the booklet pretty much defeated your nazis wanted to kill slavs just because argument as did the facts about the Soviets. We like to use this argument because it is effective and not really possible to honestly refute.

Zyklon B releases HCN vapors when heated to around room temperature (as would occur in a packed space because of body heat) and in a confined space, people can rapidly consume the oxygen by intaking it into their bodies. Try and learn science before you try and claim science supports your argument.

Nope, this is just ignorant blather. While it releases vapors it does so slowly, plus with body heat comes body moisture which along with the moist walls dramatically slows down evaporation plus of course the zyklon b would be trampled and spread around quickly under foot with hundreds of people there plus of course the krema 5 "homicidal gas chamber" had windows.

If that's what you claim is the "most-detailed study", then I shudder to think of the poor scholarship of some of the other claims. I guess Holocaust denial is like creationism where you have your Ken Ham types who at least pretend like they're doing research and then your Kent Hovind types who jusst fling shit at the wall.

Go ahead and point out a better study and no one is interested your either guesses or you saying something about a study you obviously haven't read.

Not a camp officer, numbskull, a high-ranking SS officer IN GENERAL

High rank officers would obviously visit the camp often given its importance. He could have said just a high ranking officer but he said Himmler. This is not the first time such bullshit claims about Himmler visiting have been made. It seems to be a likely selling point for the stories in the pro exterminationist community at the time.

Still doesn't make sense when the Nazis committed an enormous litany of war crimes. Even if you claim it's all made up, why make up a bunch of additional highly specific stories about killing Jews? Why not just say the population of Poland was massacred regardless if they were Polish or Jewish and not make up details about Nazi antisemitism or death camps specifically built for the Jews? The Holocaust being made up to villify Germans simply doesn't make sense.

Yeah it does make sense. Because good atrocity propaganda depends on lots of bullshit stories in order to hide the truth. This has been extensively examined. It totally makes sense and has recent historical precedent. You actually admit and agree that it does make sense.

Still waiting on you to refute any of these claims. But hey, if you'll deny the actual accounts of eyewitnesses and the actual perpetrators of the Holocaust, what's denying a few posts on the internet to prove your point? Hopefully one day you'll see your own dishonesty.

Why even refute vague nonsense? Is there a devastating argument or point here?

1) The bodies are not found at the bottom, they are found throughout the volume. Further, years of groundwater infiltration would break down and compact bone and ash to produce a different sight than was witnessed in the 1940s.

"At the bottom as a rule"

2) It's not rubbish at all because it's 100% true. People who grow up in deprivation, like almost 9 years of it for instance, grow up smaller. For instance, many modern day South Sudanese young adults are shorter than historic South Sudanese, despite being part of historically the tallest race in the world (Nilotic people) because of the famines during the civil war. In Europe this was proven by 1930s physical anthropology measuring the people of Poland. Once again, can you actually prove this claim wrong, or is it disregarded since it trashes your argument?

I don't even need to prove it wrong, it's just a speculation without even technical backing.

Sure malnourishment existed at times in some places, but it was likely widespread and intermittent and it's too vague to use in some silly assertion that a mass gassing occurred. But please, go ahead and show your math on this. Exterminationists like you are normally pretty bad at this so go ahead and surprise us.

3) Yes, if the people who said it happened were the people who directly took part from the camp guards to the prisoners to the liberators of the camps to the civilians who snooped around in the area and knew something was up. That's a LOT of eyewitness testimony which is why your ilk have to resort to lying about what was said, when it was said, and claiming ignorance of a particular detail somehow proves the eyewitness was wrong about everything. Eyewitness testimony has been important to history since Ancient Greece and China, where codifiers of studying history like Thucydides and Sima Qian placed value on personal testimony--and just who those people were.

Right, so you believe in witches then. The witches had many accusers and even confessed under pressure too. Thanks, you played yourself again.

There's nothing hidden about the Holocaust, because the vast majority of . Anything unknown is not being cited by the people you foolishly claim are "serious historians" (they are neither historians, nor revisionists, but instead more akin to a flat earther or creationist) who cannot argue without misrepresenting source material.

See attached.

They are not scattered at random, they correspond to the area behind the crematoria in the western/northwestern area of the camp as well as earlier (or later?) graves in the western part of the camp. This has something to do with the soil conditions at Belzec which is rather sandy. This sandy soil made the mass graves collapse in on each other, explaining the odd shapes. Space was not totally limited either, since at least one grave extends beyond the bounds of Belzec.

No the execution, burial and cremation are all supposed to be on the eastern side according to Arad's map, the supposed authority of this from the exterminationists side.

Meanwhile, again;

"In conclusion, we can see that the location given by Kola for the majority
of the graves is in disagreement both with Rudolf Reder’s testimony and with the findings of the Polish investigative commission. Furthermore, an examination of the map of Bełżec as published by Arad229 forces one to conclude that the quarters of the Ukrainian guards, the hygienic installations (barbers, infirmary, dentists for the SS and the Ukrainians), the kitchen for the Ukrainian guards, the garage, and the shoemakers’ and tailors’ workshops (shown on the map as numbers 3, 4, 5, 7 and were located right next to mass graves or even on top of them!"

damn this is utter gibberish even by your standards, congrats . the unrelated attachments are the cherry on top . go spend time with your kids (I think you mentioned you're a father). most here would be thankful for what you have


Do you believe the NKVD killed hundreds of thousands of people ? The vast majority of these sites haven't been excavated or even studied.


Not to save the Jews no.

You're just butthurt at this point. We covered the supposed anti white tactics of the nazis on the eastern front already where you guys tried to accuse them of wanting to kill Slavs. Your arguments were examined and refuted.

 

[Chugger]

You keep bringing up how Soviet massacres murders must not count since they were never properly investigated

No I don't. Physical evidence is not the only way to know a massacre happened

Despite the fact they regularly admitted to them

The Soviets never admitted to them, no. Not even to Katyn. The post Soviet government did, just like the post Nazi government did

Scrolling down I notice the same usual forgeries of photos of mass graves.

Your conspiratorial approach likely precludes you from trusting any theoretical piece of physical evidence. If revisionists were allowed to investigate the sites and reported finding mass cremains, you would probably assume they had been paid off or threatened with bodily harm

 

[Bonesjones]

No I don't. Physical evidence is not the only way to know a massacre happened

Physical evidence is the only way you know anything happens. Actions cause reactions which leave a trace. Your poor attempts at manipulation only make you dumber and dumber.

The Soviets never admitted to them, no. Not even to Katyn. The post Soviet government did, just like the post Nazi government did

I literally just quoted the Wikipedia page where they did. Again you are a total fucking retard who never shuts up.

Your conspiratorial approach likely precludes you from trusting any theoretical piece of physical evidence. If revisionists were allowed to investigate the sites and reported finding mass cremains, you would probably assume they had been paid off or threatened with bodily harm

No my evidence based approach causes skepticism to everything put in front of me. If revisionists were allowed to do anything, you can guarantee that there would be 10x as many people watching over their every move to make sure everything was done as favorable to the holocaust narrative. This is not rocket surgery, its a lie based narrative that is extremely profitable. You yourself are most likely an agent fighting for the Holocaust because you are being paid either directly or indirectly.

 

[mrolonzo]

Physical evidence is the only way you know anything happens. Actions cause reactions which leave a trace. Your poor attempts at manipulation only make you dumber and dumber.

I literally just quoted the Wikipedia page where they did. Again you are a total fucking retard who never shuts up.

No my evidence based approach causes skepticism to everything put in front of me. If revisionists were allowed to do anything, you can guarantee that there would be 10x as many people watching over their every move to make sure everything was done as favorable to the holocaust narrative. This is not rocket surgery, its a lie based narrative that is extremely profitable. You yourself are most likely an agent fighting for the Holocaust because you are being paid either directly or indirectly.

Point of order here Bones, he shuts up regularly when he's refuted. But then goes right back to his talking point a few pages later as if nothing has been said.

 

[Chugger]

Point of order here Bones, he shuts up regularly when he's refuted. But then goes right back to his talking point a few pages later as if nothing has been said.

Let's test to see if this happens in the ensuing exchange with @Bonesjones

Physical evidence is the only way you know anything happens. Actions cause reactions which leave a trace. Your poor attempts at manipulation only make you dumber and dumber.

one of the largest Soviet killing fields https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butovo_firing_range has not been excavated or even studied using non-invasive techniques. Were people killed here?

I literally just quoted the Wikipedia page where they did. Again you are a total fucking retard who never shuts up.

please show me where the Soviets "admitted" to anything. There are Nazi documents where, along the same lines, they "admit" to mass killings eg "

"JEWS EXECUTED: 363,211"​

and

"The result to date of this “resettlement action”: 500,000 Jews."

So I guess documents are good enough for you in this case?

*btw the reason I quote HC blog is they are very well sourced compared to other sites and post original document scans

 

[Bonesjones]

Let's test to see if this happens in the ensuing exchange with @Bonesjones

The only thing you test is people's patience.

one of the largest Soviet killing fields https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butovo_firing_range has not been excavated or even studied using non-invasive techniques. Were people killed here?

I don't care because it's not a part of this discussion beyond your futile attempts at misdirection.

please show me where the Soviets "admitted" to anything. There are Nazi documents where, along the same lines, they "admit" to mass killings eg "

As I quoted from Wikipedia, 600k was official Soviet records.

So I guess documents are good enough for you in this case?

*btw the reason I quote HC blog is they are very well sourced compared to other sites and post original document scans

Documents can only ever be supporting evidence.

Then why were it's authors involved in a battle based on inserting forged documents? Is that what your handlers tell you is appropriate? Why not use more primary sources?

 

[Chugger]

I don't care because it's not a part of this discussion beyond your futile attempts at misdirection.

This didn't stop you from alleging I was a tankie and denying Soviet crimes. I'm asking you the same question, it's a simple yes or no. Were people killed at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butovo_firing_range . Do you think this, like the Holocaust, is false propaganda?

As I quoted from Wikipedia, 600k was official Soviet records.

same with these

"JEWS EXECUTED: 363,211"​

and

"The result to date of this “resettlement action”: 500,000 Jews."

it seems you are giving credence to Soviet records but not Nazi ones. Why? Are official documents important or not?

Then why were it's authors involved in a battle based on inserting forged documents? Is that what your handlers tell you is appropriate? Why not use more primary sources?

Re HC blog, by well sourced I mean if they're quoting a document they provide footnotes.

Why were the authors involved in a "battle based on inserting forged documents"? Because the internet is full of schizos. If they had forged documents I assume somebody would be able to point out an actual document they forged. Any of you gents want to take a crack at this?

 

[Charlie Rockwell]

Borat is simply a jew wishing to stop other people's free speech while lampooning others as he sees fit.

He's an absolute rat.

Isn't SB Cohen's whole "Borat" persona a seethe because there was a Kazakh guy he met once who was antisemitic? Kinda cringe to seethe so hard you make a whole movie out of it pretending to be the guy.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

What is this source directly in my post, could it be an overview of "excavations" and investigations of Belzec. You lie like you breathe you duplicitous retard.

So you admit that murders attributed to the holocaust could be mistaken and are actually attributed to other sources? Whoops we are done here. You've destroyed your own argument yet again.

Why is arguing with jews so easy, they lie so much with no backing that they constantly defeat themselves and hope no one notices.

LMAO you call me duplicitous but you don't even read my argument. No dumbass, I'm saying that if we didn't have the endless reams of documentation for the Holocaust, we might falsely believe some of the Jewish victims weren't Jewish, keyword some. And there is a chance that some small massacres here and there are falsely believed to be Jewish victims because of confusion on the part of the perpetrators who documented it. But turns out subtracting or adding a few hundred thousand deaths to the Holocaust death toll doesn't actually change the fact that millions of Jews were murdered by Nazi Germany.

As for @mrolonzo:

Ok, what is Hitler's ideology, where do you get this from and where does this differ from my view?

The Nazis in their own words combined with their own deeds. Hitler, Himmler, Goebbels, and other leading Nazis put out numerous statements regarding foreign policy, racial policy, etc. which advocates German supremacy as the chief exponents of the Aryan race (hence why the Nazis abducted Slavic children with Aryan features) and the need for Germany to gain lebensraum in Europe. It also includes the destruction of the Jewish people for being parasites and the subjugation of Slavs under the German thumb since to as Hitler said, "they are incapable of organizing their own states."

This ideology perfectly explains German conduct 1933-1945, while the progress of the war (namely failure to achieve naval dominance over Britain or quickly defeat the USSR) explains why extermination of the Jews was chosen over mass deportation. Generalplan Ost is the natural consequence (yes, it was just a proposal, but the actual plan was going to follow along those lines).

OUN werent most partisans either so your weak point is refuted by itself.

Hence why I brought up the Polish pro-Nazi faction you're desperate to claim were "Polish nationalists who deserved it" and the Chetniks too. And don't forget how Vlasov's army was constantly losing men to desertion and eventually turned on the Nazis. His fellow traitor Kaminski also lost many to desertion and was eventually shot not for the mass murder and rape his men committed, but for embezzling money for his anti-Soviet activities. Your argument is absolutely untenable, so I'm not surprised you refuse to address it.

Sure they do. That's why they are that deep. Probably helps prevent looting too.

Why are they empty? Whats wrong with a grave being mostly empty?

Because according to you, the Nazis were a hyper-efficient war machine that had no time to kill people. But somehow they did have time to dig a bunch of deep-ass graves because 133 Jews died. Holocaust denial has so many holes in its narrative that it's almost hilarious at times.

Lol

https://codoh.com/library/document/babi-yar-critical-questions-and-comments/en/

Just the usual denialist playbook. Out of context witness statements, bringing up issues that aren't actually issues (no one denies there were multiple massacres on multiple days), deliberate falsehoods about science (the good ol' canard about how burning bodies en masse is somehow akin to a Hindu funeral crops up again). It's all so tiresome.

Nope, this is just ignorant blather. While it releases vapors it does so slowly, plus with body heat comes body moisture which along with the moist walls dramatically slows down evaporation plus of course the zyklon b would be trampled and spread around quickly under foot with hundreds of people there plus of course the krema 5 "homicidal gas chamber" had windows.

The cans of Zyklon B were smashed open and the pellets poured in, so presumably they were already releasing vapors as they fell. Zyklon B is released very quickly at room temperature and not much is needed to kill.

The Efficiency of Prussic Acid Fumigation at Low Temperatures

Reproduction of a 1941 scientific paper by Peter and Rasch of DEGESCH describing how Zyklon-B is useful in killing insects even in winter temperatures.

phdn.org

Once More: The Efficiency of Prussic Acid at Low Temperatures

Paper by R. Irmscher, 1942, on Prussic acid evaporation from Zyklon.

phdn.org

Although hosted by a Holocaust memorial group, both of these are Nazi-era studies regarding Zyklon-B in the context of fumigation. Note how quickly Zyklon-B is released, and then consider concentration camps used an order of magnitude more gas than was needed.

There is no evidence said window would have caused the gas chamber not to work since ZOMG, gas-tight windows exist.

Go ahead and point out a better study and no one is interested your either guesses or you saying something about a study you obviously haven't read.

Crack open an actual recent-ish book on the Holocaust or just go to one of like a dozen sites that have documentation of the Holocaust. You're the alleged researcher on the Holocaust after all.

High rank officers would obviously visit the camp often given its importance. He could have said just a high ranking officer but he said Himmler. This is not the first time such bullshit claims about Himmler visiting have been made. It seems to be a likely selling point for the stories in the pro exterminationist community at the time.

And I said he might have been mistaken.

Yeah it does make sense. Because good atrocity propaganda depends on lots of bullshit stories in order to hide the truth. This has been extensively examined. It totally makes sense and has recent historical precedent. You actually admit and agree that it does make sense.

What recent historical precedent? I can think of lies spread about Syria and Russia, but those are just a few incidents compared to the innumerable ones that make up the Holocaust. You'll note that the lies are few and vaguely plausible, like "oh noes, Russians be raping" or "muh Bucha massacre" or "muh chemical attack." If the Holocaust is fake, they wouldn't have made up hundreds of obscure massacres in obscure villages or made up THAT MANY death camps for the same reason Ukraine or the Syrian rebels keep their lies about Russia and Assad to within reasonable bounds.

Why even refute vague nonsense? Is there a devastating argument or point here?

You ignore every argument I make that refutes your nonsense. There's nothing vague about it.

For instance, regarding the smaller height of Jews, here is a favorite Nazi anthropologist, Otmar von Verschuer, confirming in the late 30s the average male Jew in Central Europe was between 161-164 cm compared to Germans at 166-173 cm.

The Racial Biology of Jews : Otmar von Verschuer : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The Racial Biology of Jews (an anthropology essay) by Baron Otmar von Verschuer, M.D and translated by Charles E. Weber, Ph.D.

archive.org

I'm going to assume based on the shorter stature of Russians compared to Germans that Soviet Jews were at least as short, if not shorter. Point is, if your denialists aren't taking this scientific metric into account, their calculations are inherently bunk.

Right, so you believe in witches then. The witches had many accusers and even confessed under pressure too. Thanks, you played yourself again.

That's a pretty bold leap of logic from someone allegedly interested in history, who allegedly knows how it works, and is allegedly "just a revisionist." I notice that when you're blatantly exposed as being wrong you make these hilarious leaps of logic or just go "nuh-uh, Johnny Holocaustdenier says it's wrong in his book!"

No the execution, burial and cremation are all supposed to be on the eastern side according to Arad's map, the supposed authority of this from the exterminationists side.

Meanwhile, again;

"In conclusion, we can see that the location given by Kola for the majority
of the graves is in disagreement both with Rudolf Reder’s testimony and with the findings of the Polish investigative commission. Furthermore, an examination of the map of Bełżec as published by Arad229 forces one to conclude that the quarters of the Ukrainian guards, the hygienic installations (barbers, infirmary, dentists for the SS and the Ukrainians), the kitchen for the Ukrainian guards, the garage, and the shoemakers’ and tailors’ workshops (shown on the map as numbers 3, 4, 5, 7 and were located right next to mass graves or even on top of them!"

The old maps look like they have issues with perspective/scale, while Kola's map is a professional site map as is typical in archaeology. There are graves on the eastern side of the camp as well BTW. In any case, it's not unusual for archaeology to contradict historical descriptions.

You're just butthurt at this point. We covered the supposed anti white tactics of the nazis on the eastern front already where you guys tried to accuse them of wanting to kill Slavs. Your arguments were examined and refuted.

How'd you prove me wrong when I quoted to you actual Nazi propaganda and quotes from actual Nazi leaders, not just whatever quotes you cherry-pick to make the Nazis look like heckin' based saviors of the huwhyte race?