The Last of Us Franchise - Because it's apparently a franchise now. This thread has been double-DMCA’d by Sony Interactive Entertainment.

[VileZero]

Agressive wokeness ,especially when it's forced, most people will play shit games as long as they have good Aesthetic, See Fate or any Gatcha mobel. The hate with TLOU2 it's less that abby has a dick and is surrounded by gender specials and more so that the writter kills one of the charachters you grew attached to and tries to make the other the bad guy. It's a lot like what happened to comics, diverse charachters have been around forever and no one really cared. When new woke charachters came in and either stole or tarnished the history of the charachters fans loved is when they got pissed.

Also you can't really compare this to pokemon, besides the fact that features have been removed since Silver/Gold Pokemon is a franchise that is constantly insulted as cheep worthless trash. The average persons reaction to Sword/Shield was no different than the reaction was when Black/White came out. Down to the same arguments excluding the lack of a national dex which actually pissed longtime fans off.

In some ways it's pretty terrible compared to other games, like story, but in others it's clearly the best, like having open areas and making competitive battling easy to get into. I'd never even bothered battling other players up until S/S because it's far more inviting. They have the misfortune of being on a deadline because of the anime/card games and being trapped between three companies. The game people want out of Pokemon would take far more time (and probably better devs, because let's face it, they've been handheld devs for 20 years.) than they're allowed.

 

[Sinner's Sandwich]

Turns out Naughty dog didn't write the dog killing shit & you aren't forced to kill them.

https://mobile.twitter.com/arnemeyer/status/1258476005057945600

 

[StarkRavingMad]

The dog thing reminds me a lot of the dog scene from Telltale's TWD Season 2.

Another fucked up take on dogs in the apocalypse. Don't watch if you love puppers.

In a nutshell, it was a massively wasted opportunity to get the audience to care about anything post-Season 1 as Clementine essentially has to kill a suffering dog that attacks her for food when the dog could have been the new emotional core of the series with better writing. It's disturbing and is never brought up again and was pretty unnecessary overall.

Do people that work in video games just hate dogs? Why would anyone hate on an animal specifically designed to love and worship you 24/7?

I actually think this moment in The Walking Dead: Season 2 worked.

To me, the moment really solidified that Clementine was really all alone at that point in the game, and that she has to grow up in a brutal world with only herself to trust at that point. The moment also serves as a character-building moment in terms of Clementine's developing fighting and survival skills. Plus, it was a moment that narratively led to one of the most iconic lines in the entire Walking Dead video game series: "Still not bitten." For me, personally, I can't imagine the game without that moment at this point, as fucked up as the moment itself is. I thought the moment at least had a point to it rather than "let's be shocking."

Also, in the final season of the Walking Dead game series, Clementine comes across another dog, is scared of it at first, and then eventually befriends it (and the doggo even survives throughout the entire game!). One of the messages of the final season of the game was that "no matter how bad shit gets, there are still things worth fighting for, and there will always be people (or doggos) you can trust even when things are at their worst."

The Walking Dead game isn't perfect, especially with how Telltales handled the actual impact of the "choices" you made, but I still really enjoyed the series and there were many moments in the game throughout that effectively tugged at my heartstrings. It's a game where we see the messed up side of the world ... But the backbone of the game is about the things that are worth fighting, surviving, and even dying for.

The Last of Us 2, though? Yeah, based on the way Druckmann described it, he's just trying to be a shock jock. This game is some postmodern, nihilistic piece of garbage where nothing means anything. It completely betrays the narrative of the first game.

I'm not even mad that there are dogs you have to kill in the game (because, realistically, I can sadly see something like that happening in a post-apocalyptic world), but to make a point to brag about how "we'll all hear their owners cry out in horror!" is pretty sadistic. There's no rhyme or reason behind that "creative decision." It's only there to be shocking. There's nothing of substance to be said there.

Plus, Druckmann is apparently on a fucking mission to get us to hate Joel and Ellie. Abby clearly goes on a "roaring rampage of revenge," and it's totes cool when she does it. When Ellie does it? Well, now: She's just a piece of evil shit, now isn't she? How dare she even need to kill dogs to survive, too?! She kills puppies, you guys! Now love Abby or else!

 

[Scarlett Johansson]

Life is Strange 2 had a dog death. I fucking hate that game because of it. It was too much to handle tbh

 

[T0oCoolFool]

Turns out Naughty dog didn't write the dog killing shit & you aren't forced to kill them.

https://mobile.twitter.com/arnemeyer/status/1258476005057945600

View attachment 1277795

So I read the tweet thread and it seems misleading, as if he's trying to imply that the promotional e-mail was lying, when really they weren't. He says that he was just clarifying that Naughty Dog would never write out that information in "that kind of tone" and that it's not an objective to kill them:

Twitter

He links to an article that explains the game play, but it doesn't really help his argument. Yeah, technically you can try to avoid killing the dogs, but these guys tried and couldn't do it:

Stealthing through every situation and keeping out of combat is very tough, though, and it likely won't be long before you're forced to kill someone to keep yourself alive. If you get into a pitched battle with enemies, you'll find attack dogs running you down, trying to knock Ellie down and rip out her throat. That means you'll be shooting dogs, stabbing dogs, and sometimes slamming melee weapons like axes and machetes into dogs.

Of course, fighting attack dogs isn't really anything new in video games, but Part 2's focus on the savagery of fighting for your life makes these moments particularly harrowing. They're amplified as well by the reactions of the dogs' human companions when you kill one. After finishing off a dog, it's common to hear its owner screaming out in anguish about the situation.

Our play session featured a lot of humans roaming around with dogs, making the animals a serious threat, whether you're in stealth or in combat. More often than not, we had no choice but to dispatch them, causing dog lover after dog lover to loudly mourn their canine buds--and loudly curse Ellie.

The Last of Us Part 2's thematic focus is on pushing you to feel the impact of your actions as you work through its post-apocalyptic world. Ellie is on a crusade for justice (or vengeance) in Part 2, and Newman said the game is about humanity, and what you might have to sacrifice of it to stay alive in its brutal world.

As writer Neil Druckmann pointed out on Twitter, you do have agency in Part 2 and, if you're careful, can avoid the dogs and choose not to kill them. During this demo, I was very much not able to avoid them. Apologies to all the dogs.

 

[Table Country]

I don't understand this sudden fuss about killing dogs in vidya. The supposed retailer describing in detail how killing a dog will make some dude cry out in despair is really fucky and uncomfortable, as is the prospect that Druckmann may have had his team research actual murders, dog or no. But it's not like you're killing somebody's real life dog. I've killed dogs in plenty of video games, why is this a problem?

 

[Adamska]

I don't understand this sudden fuss about killing dogs in vidya. The supposed retailer describing in detail how killing a dog will make some dude cry out in despair is really fucky and uncomfortable, as is the prospect that Druckmann may have had his team research actual murders, dog or no. But it's not like you're killing somebody's real life dog. I've killed dogs in plenty of video games, why is this a problem?

Because Druckmann is only doing this to try and make you feel bad; it isn't for enemy variety, actually poignant, or to drive a story. It's just him being an edgelord faggot who wants you to feel bad when you murder people who want to murder you back. It's either because he's so delusional and narcissistic he thinks we'll care, or he's a sadist who deserves only mockery and laughter to blue ball him from his desire to spread misery and guro fetishes to others until his testicles explode.

 

[Jaimas]

I remember that there's a completely invincible dog in the original Twisted Metal, and the manual's words on the matter are fucking gold:

Yes, there's a dog in the game. No, you can't run him over. What are you, some kind of sick freak?!

....This is after four pages of advocating you run over every pedestrian you see, for maximum funny.

 

[Honka Honka Burning Love]

I don't understand this sudden fuss about killing dogs in vidya. The supposed retailer describing in detail how killing a dog will make some dude cry out in despair is really fucky and uncomfortable, as is the prospect that Druckmann may have had his team research actual murders, dog or no. But it's not like you're killing somebody's real life dog. I've killed dogs in plenty of video games, why is this a problem?

Because it is base emotional manipulation. People like animals, having someone screech at you for killing their puppers as it was trying to rip out your throat is just trying to tug on those bugman heart strings because they love the little fur babies. He might as well just spray painted "BE SAD YOU KILLED SOMEONES PET" on the screen every time you have to do it.

 

[Homer Simpson]

These killable dog characters make me wonder: Did they have to watch "reference" videos of dogs being killed? That would be so fucked up if someone had to actually watch videos of real dogs being tortured and killed.

I see some people saying on reddit that no one should be upset about being able to kill dogs in the game, because other games have done this before too. I disagree with that, because I'm betting that the dogs dying in this game will be far worse than what any other game has done when it comes to killing animals.

Given what we know about this game so far, Druckmann has gone out of his way to make it as violent as possible. With that in mind, Ellie won't just shoot the dogs and then they'll quickly die. No, Druckmann probably made it to where we will have to beat the shit out of the dog, and we'll hear every pained whimper, cry, and yelp. We'll see every pained expression and get to watch the poor dog writhe in agony as it slowly succumbs to its injuries. At that point, the owner will come out, cry it's name and demonize Ellie.



I think you are spot on, which is why I am certain that these dog's deaths will be extremely graphic and absolutely brutal.

Dude...that description of it. Like, if it's just a rabid dog attacking her and she shoots or stabs it once to kill it, that's one thing, but god damn, if they do that it would me horrible. Fuck everything else, if it depicts a dog suffering I would quit instantly. Fuck everything else.

 

[Trashfire Garbagefuck]

All this talk of video game dogs has me thinking about now Nier 1 handled the cycle of vengeance thing. there's this wolf pack lead by an intelligent half-shade wolf in conflict with a nearby village (the shades are this game's monsters). the villagers start culling them even though they don't really fuck with humans. and once they do the conflict escalates and they do start attacking random human passerbys in the desert they share. once they're culled down to a fraction of their original population and are beyond re-population, they decide to retaliate by killing the leader's new wife during the wedding, who themselves was the one foreigner in the village and had nothing to do with it. after a brief fight the wolves escape and you tag along with him and his top men to their den. you kill all the wolves and get revenge, it's easy, it's awful and it goes on too long. you're meant to feel bad about what's happening but not feel like you specifically are a terrible person or that you even made the wrong decision. which is kinda the whole game really, especially when you go up against the main antagonist. the villagers went out of their way to kill wolves who avoided humans anyways and started the conflict, but you yourself were never around for that and aren't really aware of it until the second playthrough. all you have in front of you is a dear friend who lost someone precious to them in the blink of an eye, without warning, and you want them to get revenge just as much as they want it. even learning the context doesn't really change things.

tl;dr a magic dog is a better character than abby.

 

[HumanHive]

All this talk of video game dogs has me thinking about now Nier 1 handled the cycle of vengeance thing. there's this wolf pack lead by an intelligent half-shade wolf in conflict with a nearby village (the shades are this game's monsters). the villagers start culling them even though they don't really fuck with humans. and once they do the conflict escalates and they do start attacking random human passerbys in the desert they share. once they're culled down to a fraction of their original population and are beyond re-population, they decide to retaliate by killing the leader's new wife during the wedding, who themselves was the one foreigner in the village and had nothing to do with it. after a brief fight the wolves escape and you tag along with him and his top men to their den. you kill all the wolves and get revenge, it's easy, it's awful and it goes on too long. you're meant to feel bad about what's happening but not feel like you specifically are a terrible person or that you even made the wrong decision. which is kinda the whole game really, especially when you go up against the main antagonist. the villagers went out of their way to kill wolves who avoided humans anyways and started the conflict, but you yourself were never around for that and aren't really aware of it until the second playthrough. all you have in front of you is a dear friend who lost someone precious to them in the blink of an eye, without warning, and you want them to get revenge just as much as they want it. even learning the context doesn't really change things.

tl;dr a magic dog is a better character than abby.

I think Nier is a horrible example for comparision, because there are elements of Nier and Drakengard designed to piss you off in order to prove a point. And while that franchise(s?) is/are a masterclass in antagonistic game design, this doesn't mean antagonizing your players is a good idea.

 

[knightlautrec]

As a writer, you don't want your audience to be pissed at you by having a character they're attached to die in an undignified manner. Undignified deaths are rarely good for protagonists.

It brings to mind the undead dragons from Dark Souls. The ones found in Valley and the painted world. Originally they were going to be riddled with maggots and falling apart and generally just really, really gross and Miyazaki looked at them and said 'these have no dignity. They were great beings'. And really he's right. If they'd been these supremely gross and ugly dragons, you'd feel somewhat good for killing them off. But when they're these blind, still somewhat ugly dragons spewing poison clouds and just trying to swat at you somewhat ineffectively, you can see they are a former shell of what they should be and you feel sad for their state - not exactly relieved because they're horrifying abominations like the original concept.

Killing Joel like this has no dignity to the character. It's a cheap shock value death that'll get the intended effect of anger in the player but perhaps not the way Druckmann intended.

 

[Hangula Hungui]

Maybe Neil Druckmann is compensating his grievance because he didn’t get the job at the local slaughterhouse.
At least that would explain the reason why he slaughters well established characters like Joel.

 

[T0oCoolFool]

I don't understand this sudden fuss about killing dogs in vidya. The supposed retailer describing in detail how killing a dog will make some dude cry out in despair is really fucky and uncomfortable, as is the prospect that Druckmann may have had his team research actual murders, dog or no. But it's not like you're killing somebody's real life dog. I've killed dogs in plenty of video games, why is this a problem?

It's not like this dog issue is the main reason people are upset. It's just the latest reason this game is going to suck. I can't speak for everyone obviously, but my issues with it boils down to 2 things:

1. Druckmann fancies himself as some type of deep thinker and ground breaking artist, when really he's lame and uninspiring. Realistic graphics and death scenes doesn't make your story more compelling or interesting. Trying to get your players to feel "bad" about their actions isn't a new concept either. It's so cringey the way he talks about this game and acting as if murdering a dog and feeling bad about it is something that's never happened in a game before. In reality, it appears that he's upping the violence not only because he's likely some kind of freak, but mostly so you'll forget there isn't much substance in the game.

2. Given what we know about the game and the references they used to make it, I don't see this as being like other games that involve killing animals. Every game I've played that involved killing animals, it didn't look realistic or they didn't focus on the killing. You just killed the animal and that was that. Even then, I didn't like it to do it, but I could get past it because the rest of the game was decent enough. This game though? The killing will be realistic, and you'll have to kill a lot of them. The storyline sucks, the characters we loved in the first game are dead or ruined,.... and now you're asking me to kill dogs and watch them die in a realistic fashion to boot? There's seriously nothing to like about this game.

 

[Trump's Chosen]

People still talking about the dogkilling as if it were in last of us

 

[Iodised Ant]

If you want players to feel about killing you are going to have to do more than give names to nameless human shaped obstacles, because ironically giving them names doesn't make them any less nameless. Most of the npcs in Black and White 2 had names and families, and you could kill virtually all of them, including pregnant women and children, but it always seemed like you were killing ants. Also you have to make their paragraph long sob story proportional to the player's character needs and over all situation. I felt bad about killing the owlbears in Dragon's Crown because they were basically man made animals just trying to keep out a living, while I'm a pretty well off perverted adventurer, I don't care about Darrek and his pibble Biscoots and their post apocalypse woes because I'm a grimey lesbian also living through a post apocalyptic world, and I'm not apart large heavily armed group of religious fanatics. It would actually work if you were just killing randos in groups no larger than 6, purely because neither side knows if the other means them harm.

 

[Trashfire Garbagefuck]

I think Nier is a horrible example for comparision, because there are elements of Nier and Drakengard designed to piss you off in order to prove a point. And while that franchise(s?) is/are a masterclass in antagonistic game design, this doesn't mean antagonizing your players is a good idea.

if used sparingly it can be. a good story might piss you off sometimes. maybe get you to empathize with the characters and their story a little more. and if nier is designed to piss you off occasionally isn't that a good comparison for that reason? that's essentially what druckman is trying to do. just really really badly. basically I think everything wrong in tlou2 is in the execution, and that nier handled certain similar concepts better.

Spoiler: off topic

that said drakengard never really pissed me off and I wouldn't compare the way it handles revenge and killing to tlou either. or to nier actually. it might be a prequel to nier but it's its own beast. any time something fucked up happened it was more of a "lol what the fuck" moment to me. you're desensitized to it all early on and I went in expecting madness. that's what I got and it never disappoints in that respect. except the ending where angelus gets sealed that shit was legit sad . but it didn't piss me off. otherwise it's balls out insanity the whole way through compared to the more grounded nier. which actually made the insane parts more effective in nier's case.

 

[Ita Mori]

Reading about the dogs, haven't other games already done this?
Stalker and Fallout have you kill Man's best friend plenty of times, and not all of them are mangy/mutated for you to feel any less bad about it.

Not that it excuses this anus of a product, but still failing to see the big deal.
Unless you're supposed to use Ellie's hands and they programmed a mechanic to strangle the dogs like your name's Chris Benoit...

 

[Hangula Hungui]

Reading about the dogs, haven't other games already done this?
Stalker and Fallout have you kill Man's best friend plenty of times, and not all of them are mangy/mutated for you to feel any less bad about it.

Not that it excuses this anus of a product, but still failing to see the big deal.
Unless you're supposed to use Ellie's hands and they programmed a mechanic to strangle the dogs like your name's Chris Benoit...

It adds to the overall picture being that The Last Of Us Part 2 will be mostly shock value based rather than anything, having the player feel bad for forcing you with mechanics like this and the previously mentioned story parts.
If Neil was out to make the player feel guilty, maybe he should have taken another look at the first games ending. Or many other examples which were mentioned here.