The Linux Thread - The Autist's OS of Choice

[Frail Snail]

Here's an article from the guy who patches mpv for Wayland about the current state of the protocol. Choice quotes;

What ended up happening was that everyone wrote their own compositors from scratch. This meant people reinvented the wheel multiple times and reimplemented the same thing over and over. For clients, this is actually rather annoying. Because compositors subtly do things differently under the hood, it is entirely possible for your totally valid, completely correct, Wayland code to randomly break on some other compositor.

For a concrete example, you can, on the client side, choose a specific output to fullscreen to, but you cannot chose a specific output to start up in non-fullscreen mode. A long time ago, I made this request since it's not uncommon for users to want to start an mpv window on a different monitor or something like that. The answers I got back from Wayland developers were not very encouraging and one of them even thought it was a mistake to allow fullscreen to go to a specific output!

We were told all along that Xorg is so bad and terrible that it needed to be started from scratch but at this point people need to be looking in the mirror and asking questions. If that 14 years of effort was instead focused onto solely improving Xorg, what would the result be?

He's right, Kdenlive is shit. Sometimes the rendering is fine until it decides to shit the bed and make everything pixelated like something lower than 144p.


Doesn't Mutahar edit his videos on a Mac?

I don't know what he edits on actually. The comment was more directed at how he approaches experimenting with systems without touching his base OS. If Kdenlive is shit, it is shit everywhere regardless of your distro flavor.

 

[Stabmaster Arson]

Here's an article from the guy who patches mpv for Wayland about the current state of the protocol. Choice quotes;








I don't know what he edits on actually. The comment was more directed at how he approaches experimenting with systems without touching his base OS. If Kdenlive is shit, it is shit everywhere regardless of your distro flavor.

You know who I blame for this? Leonard FUCKING Poettering. If I ever meet that cracker int he street I'm gonna give him such a beatdown like you've never seen. BAM that's for pulseaudio you Finnish fucking faggot. BAM that's for SystemD. BAM that's also for systemD. BAM again, still for systemD. What kind of an ignorant ass cracker decides to change logfiles from human readable text to a motherfucking BINARY FORMAT! THIS CRACKER NEEDS TO FUCKING DIE! Hand me your tophats gents, I am legitmately mad at this prick and have been for years.

 

[Trans Fat 41g]

Just improve upon xorg, get rid of shit that absolutely cannot run on anything capable of 1's and 0's anymore (let alone 1's), and move on.

It's the one thing that doesn't need a brazen fork or replacement effort.

 

[Carpe Jugulum]

Why does everyone who wants to try Linux for the first time pick something like this, rolling release, bleeding edge shit that you will undoubtably break at some point, then blame and say "Linux be gay".

Breaking things is fun. I also fully accepted that it will definitely be a “me” problem when I do finally break it.

 

[Stabmaster Arson]

Breaking things is fun. I also fully accepted that it will definitely be a “me” problem when I do finally break it.

This is actually the best mindset when going into Linux.

I still think you should try Ubuntu first though.

 

[Carpe Jugulum]

This is actually the best mindset when going into Linux.

I still think you should try Ubuntu first though.

I have an old laptop that shits the bed with win10 which I also want to try Linux with to see if I can make using it slightly less cancer. Mayhaps I will do just that as I haven’t decided what to try yet. I’m enjoying Arch but I like learning.

 

[Stabmaster Arson]

I’m enjoying Arch

Ey, you might be aight whiteboy.

 

[Trans Fat 41g]

Arch is fine. I like the fact the install process is more feasible for quick deployment, thanks to the latest version of the script.

At least, comparatively speaking.

 

[Phalanges Mycologist]

I've got a opportunity to buy a Panasonic Toughbook CF-19 g8, I want to use it as a workshop PC so nothing really taxing just notes and PDF's and the occasional google for a standard or diargam etc, I was thinking of putting Debian on it has anyone ran Debian or any other Linux on a Toughbook? I know they had some official support for them in older models but I'm curious about this one.

 

[Kosher Dill]

has anyone ran Debian or any other Linux on a Toughbook?

It looks like there are even companies that specialize in it:

http://www.emperorlinux.com/mfgr/panasonic/wasp/

A quick search through the interweb indicates that there's a bunch of custom setup you'll have to do to get things like the hardware buttons and screen brightness working, and as always if you're planning on using wifi I'd double-check to make sure the wifi card isn't something Linux will autistically refuse.

https://github.com/nagyrobi/panasonic-cf-19-linux/blob/master/README.md

Overall my impression is "probably works all right out of the box and 100% if you're willing to work at it".

 

[Phalanges Mycologist]

It looks like there are even companies that specialize in it:

http://www.emperorlinux.com/mfgr/panasonic/wasp/

A quick search through the interweb indicates that there's a bunch of custom setup you'll have to do to get things like the hardware buttons and screen brightness working, and as always if you're planning on using wifi I'd double-check to make sure the wifi card isn't something Linux will autistically refuse.

https://github.com/nagyrobi/panasonic-cf-19-linux/blob/master/README.md

Overall my impression is "probably works all right out of the box and 100% if you're willing to work at it".

Thanks!

 

[CheepMeds]

Gonna stop you right there cracker.

Why does everyone who wants to try Linux for the first time pick something like this, rolling release, bleeding edge shit that you will undoubtably break at some point, then blame and say "Linux be gay".

Just start with Ubuntu brother. It is the easiest for beginners, has the most driver compatibility, and the largest (and most helpful actually) forums. If you go to the Arch forums and say "Hey, I did some retarded shit" they are gonna call you a retard. Go to the Ubuntu forums and they will already have three threads submitted by someone else who tarded it up and how to fix it.

t. Mint user.

Because in my experience with distro-hopping and molding workspaces to my preference on spare laptops and VMs for like 2 years, I found Arch to give me the least pushback.

It gives a reasonably blank slate to fine-tune your workspace from and has the biggest selection of packages.

A lot of the stable-release distros have embittered me to the Linux selling point that "you don't have to use your browser to install packages (just use your package manager, bro)", but that only applies to the the basic bitch packages. A lot of programs can only obtained by manually adding the PPAs and changing other settings, which is so much more tedious than how windows does it. While Arch has the AUR.
Also, the nature of using both official repositories and 3rd-party PPAs have given me more compatibility issues than getting things to work on Arch.

My biggest lack of experience is just the daily long-term use. I've been able to set everything up the way I need it on different devices, but I just don't know how long the structure will hold under a rolling release distro.

Just start with Ubuntu brother...

Thank you for the recommendation. I have actually set up Mint for older relatives of mine. And everything has just werked for them for more than a year
However, my setup is far more complex than just a web browser, media player, document writer and also a Sketchup client.

...then blame and say "Linux be gay".

Don't worry I won't contribute to the sentiment online unlike Null with his Nvidia GPU, I think I understand Linux well enough to accept that it might not even be fit for me.

I accept that I might likely burn myself and than start again with Mint or KDE Neon.
Again, I'm going into this cautiously via dual-booting without wiping my current Windows setup.

 

[byuu]

Here's an article from the guy who patches mpv for Wayland about the current state of the protocol. Choice quotes;

Xorg is essentially "mechanism not policy" in regards to development. It gives you a bunch of tools and then it's up to you do do whatever you want. Wayland is exactly the opposite. It's "policy not mechanism". Wayland gives you tools, but you're expected to use them in a certain way. It steers you and guides you to manage your windows in the "right" way. If you ask developers "why can't I do XYZ", you'll likely get an answer along the lines of "why do you need to do that" or "justify your usecase". Understandably, any piece of software has limits on its scope. I'm not criticizing that, but the limit on the scope of the Wayland ecosystem is way too small. There's a ton of stuff you can do client-side on Xorg that you straight-up can't do on Wayland and probably will never be able to do because of the development philosophy.
[...]
That's kind of how it goes in the Wayland-world. If you want to do something that doesn't fit the vision of the developers, good luck. You'll probably have to come up with some workaround (likely with Dbus) because the Wayland protocols and its various extensions are too limited to do what you need. As a reflection of this, you can see that every compositor implements their own, custom protocols to do various things.

If only someone could have seen all that coming....

2011-09-30 A Case against Wayland

You want another window manager, you need to implement a full Wayland compositor. Taking care of all the scrunities involved. Even worse, if the Linux developers decided on creating a new input device interface, say to address some upcoming issues, all Wayland compositors need to be updated. There's a nice German term for this: "Arbeitsbeschaffungsmaßnahme".
And after all of this it's responsible for compositing the windows to the screen(s), which means all the "eye candy" (I call it distractions) apply.
Wayland severely violates one of the core principles of X11: The separation of method and policy. A Wayland compositor mixes method and policy.
I tell you where this will end: In a plugin/module system. A core/mainline Wayland server (managing buffers of square pixel framebuffer memory regions), to which modules are attached that deal with input processing, window management and composition-effects. For stability reasons those will run in separate processes communicating with Wayland through some IPC mechanism (and if Murphy applies this will probably be D-Bus). Then, to tackle all those problems with device dependent rendering, an abstract rendering protocol/library will be introduced. Congratulations! You've just reinvented X11! The whole complexity of X11 is not some anachronistic burden, it's a necessity.

 

[Frail Snail]

A lot of the stable-release distros have embittered me to the Linux selling point that "you don't have to use your browser to install packages (just use your package manager, bro)", but that only applies to the the basic bitch packages. A lot of programs can only obtained by manually adding the PPAs and changing other settings, which is so much more tedious than how windows does it. While Arch has the AUR.

AUR and PPAs themselves are not very different from installing things that you downloaded off the web. Do you carefully read the PKGBUILD of every AUR package you install? This is, technically, the perfect use case for flatpak. However, it is absolutely abysmal at exposing programs installed through it to the shell. When I do install CLIs from outside of the official repos, I usually stick to git clone and compiling them myself.

 

[CheepMeds]

Do you carefully read the PKGBUILD of every AUR package you install?

Not really. So far I've been mostly fine relying on Yay and Pamac to build AUR packages.

 

[⠠⠠⠅⠑⠋⠋⠁⠇⠎ ⠠⠠⠊⠎ ⠠⠠⠁ ⠠⠠⠋⠁⠛]

I've got a opportunity to buy a Panasonic Toughbook CF-19 g8, I want to use it as a workshop PC so nothing really taxing just notes and PDF's and the occasional google for a standard or diargam etc, I was thinking of putting Debian on it has anyone ran Debian or any other Linux on a Toughbook? I know they had some official support for them in older models but I'm curious about this one.

This is something I've browsed Ebay for myself. I guess my only question would be if it will hold up in whatever you're intending to use it for? They look sick AF and are very resilient (especially when closed) in mobile use, but my understanding is that while the screen is good in harsh sunlight etc and waterproof, it isn't proof against flying steel splinters, so you would want it facing away from anything of that nature.

 

[⠠⠠⠅⠑⠋⠋⠁⠇⠎ ⠠⠠⠊⠎ ⠠⠠⠁ ⠠⠠⠋⠁⠛]

A lot of the stable-release distros have embittered me to the Linux selling point that "you don't have to use your browser to install packages (just use your package manager, bro)", but that only applies to the the basic bitch packages. A lot of programs can only obtained by manually adding the PPAs and changing other settings, which is so much more tedious than how windows does it. While Arch has the AUR.
Also, the nature of using both official repositories and 3rd-party PPAs have given me more compatibility issues than getting things to work on Arch.

No such thing as a 'stable-release distro'. If you like instability, just use Debian unstable.

 

[U 'MIRIN BRAH?]

Because in my experience with distro-hopping and molding workspaces to my preference on spare laptops and VMs for like 2 years, I found Arch to give me the least pushback.

It gives a reasonably blank slate to fine-tune your workspace from and has the biggest selection of packages.

A lot of the stable-release distros have embittered me to the Linux selling point that "you don't have to use your browser to install packages (just use your package manager, bro)", but that only applies to the the basic bitch packages. A lot of programs can only obtained by manually adding the PPAs and changing other settings, which is so much more tedious than how windows does it. While Arch has the AUR.
Also, the nature of using both official repositories and 3rd-party PPAs have given me more compatibility issues than getting things to work on Arch.

My biggest lack of experience is just the daily long-term use. I've been able to set everything up the way I need it on different devices, but I just don't know how long the structure will hold under a rolling release distro.


Thank you for the recommendation. I have actually set up Mint for older relatives of mine. And everything has just werked for them for more than a year
However, my setup is far more complex than just a web browser, media player, document writer and also a Sketchup client.



Don't worry I won't contribute to the sentiment online unlike Null with his Nvidia GPU, I think I understand Linux well enough to accept that it might not even be fit for me.

I accept that I might likely burn myself and than start again with Mint or KDE Neon.
Again, I'm going into this cautiously via dual-booting without wiping my current Windows setup.

I had arch running without issue on my T420 for literal years, until something got fucked and it wouldn't boot anymore. Granted it wasn't my main machine, mainly used to run my cars ecu software through virtualbox. Never was able to figure that one out either...

 

[AmpleApricots]

Wayland is around now for so long and it doesn't catch on. It's dead in the water. The sooner people realize this the sooner cleaning up X can begin. All these projects that say "We'll build [thing] from scratch and it'll be better without all the complexity" don't realize that all that complexity and the edge cases are important and ended up in the source of the original project for a reason and if you end up seeking to be just as usable, your project will just end up doing the same and looking the same. Either that or outsource the complexity to external projects, making the situation often even worse because now you've effectively abolished universally valid standards. (What wayland does)

 

[Car Won't Crank]

Wayland is around now for so long and it doesn't catch on. It's dead in the water. The sooner people realize this the sooner cleaning up X can begin. All these projects that say "We'll build [thing] from scratch and it'll be better without all the complexity" don't realize that all that complexity and the edge cases are important and ended up in the source of the original project for a reason and if you end up seeking to be just as usable, your project will just end up doing the same and looking the same. Either that or outsource the complexity to external projects, making the situation often even worse because now you've effectively abolished universally valid standards. (What wayland does)

In terms of catching on, when Ubuntu 22.04 LTS came out earlier this year, one of the strange defaults of the desktop version of the OS is it would default to Wayland. Unsurprisingly enough, logging in was borked for many people and there were a lot of complaints. This, along with defaulting to the snap packages instead of the regular release repo must have soured a lot of people's view on "vanilla" Ubuntu.