The Linux Thread - The Autist's OS of Choice

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Why not fix things and call it X12?
To avoid being patches upon patches upon hacks I think it would have ended up being a complete redesign along with a compatibility layer for X11 clients, and ideally be feature-comparable to X11. This outcome would have been good, and calling it X12 would have made a lot of sense. Too bad it didn't happen.

This is actually sorta what Wayland is supposed to be, except Wayland is so feature-incomplete that you need to tack on a bunch of shit, and it's apparently designed by troons. Unless somebody puts forth an alternative, this is what we're stuck with going forward.

Xenocara is a patch set for X, we just need to factor it in for Linux usage provided whatever other process is necessary to appease distro jannies, I suppose...
How does it handle scaling? Does it freak the fuck out when you hotplug a 4k60 display?

Will it ever go mainstream?
 
To avoid being patches upon patches upon hacks I think it would have ended up being a complete redesign along with a compatibility layer for X11 clients, and ideally be feature-comparable to X11. This outcome would have been good, and calling it X12 would have made a lot of sense. Too bad it didn't happen.

This is actually sorta what Wayland is supposed to be, except Wayland is so feature-incomplete that you need to tack on a bunch of shit, and it's apparently designed by troons. Unless somebody puts forth an alternative, this is what we're stuck with going forward.


How does it handle scaling? Does it freak the fuck out when you hotplug a 4k60 display?

Will it ever go mainstream?

All I know about xenocara it's a modification (not a fork, apparently) of Xorg 7.7 made to comply with OpenBSD's least-privilege policy.
 
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I still feel like there has got to be a way to break X11 apart into separate projects that can be swapped around as they use standardized protocols. Like have one project that renders the application interface, another that puts them together in a desktop environment and writes it to a buffer, another that just handles video conversion, one that offloads work to the gpu for rendering and computing, and one that writes the buffer to the video display. That way if something wasn't working right you could just fork and edit the relevant component because you're only changing one thing without having to make adjustments to the entire desktop graphics system.
 
This is actually sorta what Wayland is supposed to be, except Wayland is so feature-incomplete that you need to tack on a bunch of shit, and it's apparently designed by troons. Unless somebody puts forth an alternative, this is what we're stuck with going forward.
There won't be an alternative. The Wayland situation is a perfect illustration of everything wrong with Linux userland development. You have smug tranny developers shitting on you for being reluctant to migrate to [shiny brand new thing] that's being hailed as the second coming of Christ that can do everything. But when you inevitably encounter something that doesn't work and causes a serious issue for you you get shit on even more because your usecase is totally just weird and outdated and [shiny brand new thing] was never supposed to support anything like that and you should get over it. Then major distros threaten to ship [shiny brand new thing] as a mandatory "feature" and you find yourself increasingly becoming a tech luddite simply for not wanting your shit broken by trannies. Official support will never be provided, unofficial support will result in the same kind of patchwork shitshow X11 is, and the development time that could at least be used to fix the shit Wayland is supposed to do (and doesn't) is spent malding on twitter about Donald Trump or something.
 
To avoid being patches upon patches upon hacks I think it would have ended up being a complete redesign along with a compatibility layer for X11 clients, and ideally be feature-comparable to X11. This outcome would have been good, and calling it X12 would have made a lot of sense. Too bad it didn't happen.

This is actually sorta what Wayland is supposed to be, except Wayland is so feature-incomplete that you need to tack on a bunch of shit, and it's apparently designed by troons. Unless somebody puts forth an alternative, this is what we're stuck with going forward.
The reason I asked is because what I like about Linux is the choice given to the users in terms of distros and desktop environment but now it seems like a bunch of people have decided that Wayland should be the only option available and the idea of making X12 (or whatever name for the protocol) is laughed at.
My knowledge on those subjects are limited (I dual boot Endeavour and Windows 10), but I enjoy reading/watching the discussions and shitposts.
 
Microsoft Windows is NOT an OS to look at as an example of something not burdened with tons of legacy bloat.
Oh absolutely, that's a fair point! It's just that I may or may not have lost faith in a good modern desktop experience on Linux (and on a way even on Windows)...
I will cross post what I've said from the Windows thread.
I've been using Linux for almost a decade and I hate the fact that in order to get a """decent""" (note the quotes) desktop experience I have to use Windows. I cannot speak for games but Linux does have it's fair share of problems: the autism of most Linuxfags certainly doesn't help. The reality is that modern computing fucking sucks and I just want to go full schizo mode and abandon modern technology altogether.
Man... Why can't we have nice things anymore? (:_(
The reason I asked is because what I like about Linux is the choice given to the users in terms of distros and desktop environment but now it seems like a bunch of people have decided that Wayland should be the only option available and the idea of making X12 (or whatever name for the protocol) is laughed at.
My knowledge on those subjects are limited (I dual boot Endeavour and Windows 10), but I enjoy reading/watching the discussions and shitposts.
Wayland is the perfect example of the CADT model of software development.
 
Linux Experiment can fuck right off with their AstroTurf content
Watching his videos he always comes off as a shill and a massive faggot. Speaking of...
Some people also seem to be violently opposed to the "fracturedness" of Linux userspace
I will never understand this. Competition and options even with open-sourced software is generally a good thing. I would hate to be forced to use GNOME with flatpaks/snap only but if people want to use it, then use it (but I will make fun of you). Hell I hate having to use systemd but almost all my favorite distros use it, even though I prefer runit (from my experience it just werked and was easy to configure, while systemd was annoying to find anything). I also like hearing arguments on why someone prefers x over y and vice versa,
 
Has any of you tried Arcan?
It all sounds good, but I can't get past the notion that an "overlay" OS is no OS at all - just another set of layers on top of the ever-expanding Big Ball of Mud. It's not as though the only alternative is to go full Wayland and throw absolutely everything out and start from scratch. There's also the rather significant stumbling block that I'm a drooling retard whose coding ability is limited to adding two numbers in BASIC and printing the result, so I'm in no position to judge or criticize any of the marvelous stuff I read about Arcan that makes it sound like the greatest thing ever.

That said, Arcan and Urbit ("the other overlay OS") are both on my list of most intriguing and promising OS projects that might liberate us from the unholy triopoly of WinMacUx - Urbit even has someone working on "NockPU", aka native hardware support. The other current contenders in my book are 9Front, Haiku (currently the most usable of the bunch) and SerenityOS, which gets double points for coding their own web browser. And an honorary mention for ZealOS, the fork of TempleOS with networking, 32-bit graphics and other heresies.
 
Giving Devuan (or Devante, as I call it) with runit+xfce a shot. I like that the "Devuan Desktop Environment" is just xfce with SLiM and Xscreensaver. The default theming isn't bad, though I still prefer greybird+elementary-xfce or the mint themes. I tried sticking to a plain-ass alsa configuration and got it to finally play nice with the right .asoundrc, but alsamixer refused to show anything but s/spdif readings that displayed nothing useful nor offered volume controls for the actual output... So I relented and installed pipewire, but I suppose you can't win if the hardware won't let you(?). One of those Beelink mini PCs, so generic hardware is probably the culprit. I don't know what I am doing with ALSA, in other words.

EDIT: My stipulation so far is it seems Runit calls custom services differently on Devuan than on Artix, from what I've read on the documentation for that distros use of Runit. It doesn't follow the same symlinking process. I tried replicating the same structure and either ran around in circles or paid dearly for it.
 
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Pretty good news.

When I don't use KDE, I always use XFCE. Another DE that just works.
 
A desktop environment that supports a display server that works and a display server that doesn't work is a more complex, more buggy, less useful desktop environment than one that supports the display server that works.
This might serve to demonstrate the poor reliability of Wayland. If Xfce is buggy under it and impossible to fix, the Xfce project mill likely choose to drop or limit support for wayland which would signal a lack of confidence in the project.
 
This might serve to demonstrate the poor reliability of Wayland. If Xfce is buggy under it and impossible to fix, the Xfce project mill likely choose to drop or limit support for wayland which would signal a lack of confidence in the project.
Five minutes later: "XFCE's community is a toxic, alt-right hive that has engaged in harassment and discrimination against trans folx and people of color, and any right-thinking distribution should exclude it immediately."
 
Linux desktop enviroments suck anyways. Poor man's Windows/MacOS that put looking "just like the real thing!!1" above everything. Get a nice window manager and brew something up yourself. Bigger investment upfront but it pays off, IMO. You don't need to touch it for years, or really ever, once you've set it up. There's a lot of WMs out there that are basically feature complete and don't see this constant cacaphony of updates that keep reinventing the wheel and shuffling everything around so the maintainer gets to keep his corpo job. Also less nasty surprises because you know all the warts already. The biggest difference between DEs and WMs in my experience is that the people who work on WMs actually use Linux and their own product. You'll often catch many a DE developer talking about his Macbook. He does not run Linux on it.

Does it freak the fuck out when you hotplug a 4k60 display?
Freak out how exactly? X by itself shouldn't really do anything when you plug in a monitor. That sounds more like the hotplug manager *cough*systemd's udev*cough* or (less likely, but always an option) the kernel's gpu drivers having a problem or the DE trying to do automagic windows-like things and failing spectacularily.

There's e.g. a really, really, really, really, really longstanding issue with (at least) intels gpu kernel drivers handling monitor EDIDs poorly and not always offering all supported resolutions and refresh rates as a result. (and also REFUSING custom ones) I had to edit and custom load on boot my Thinkpad's panel's EDID in order to get 50 Hz out of it. (important if you wanna emulate PAL games and have smooth scrolling) The kernel then proceeded to helpfully notify me that I am, indeed, loading a custom edid every time the monitor woke up from sleep, spamming me to death with messages. I ended up having to comment out the code that did that in the kernel source.

I've been trying out qutebrowser for the last two days, after I got really into the various keyboard-only navigation plugins for firefox (e.g. vimium-c) but was not impressed with their inconsistency because of inherent plugin limitations. It's based on QtWebEngine which itself is based on chromium and gets updates from chromium pushed in a six month cycle (except security fixes which get pushed asap) so websites work like you'd expect them to in a modern browser and it's quite a comfortable and very customizable browser which is intended to be very minimal in interface and keyboard-centric. It also supports greasemonkey-like scripts, a command mode, stylesheets, aliases and all the other good stuff. The biggest downsides are no ublock and no automatic tab unloading. I ended up disabling javascript globally and whitelisting it for websites I trust (all possible with on-board options) which is probably the best solution anyways. I only access "the big websites" via "privacy" 3rd party frontends and these usually don't expect javascript or have any ads for that matter. That said, it does have rudimentary DNS based adblocking and also whatever it is that brave does. It feels snappy and is defintively easier on my CPU time than Firefox, although I think it uses somewhat more memory. Typing this on my system with all programs running I have usually running consumes around ~1.8 GB of RAM so I guess I can't really complain either way. Github also seems active enough and there's enough talk about it and people involved with it that I feel safe enough in trusting it.

I'll not uninstall firefox yet but I can imagine using this as daily driver for my regular (non-important accounts) browsing so far.

I also tried nyxt, a lisp-based browser with a very pretentious description (so right up my alley) and based on apple's webkit2. It locked up after trying to open an URL in a way where I had to SIGKILL (no, a TERM did nothing) it. This had an about 50/50 chance to happen on running the command to open up an URL and happened several times. I gave up. lol.
 
Wayland is the perfect example of the CADT model of software development.
It's always galling to admit that a gay jew like jwz is so often right about technology (and also admiring him for following his stupid dream of running an independent nightspot in San Francisco and somehow hanging on for more than a decade for much longer than his .dot millions should have lasted through good business management and just loving the scene). He's certainly right about what tends to happen with KDE and GNOME development, at least since KDE 3 and Gnome 2 were unceremoniously chucked in the trash for no reason.

I believe it's universally agreed that KDE 3's AmaroK was the best iTunes style music jukebox player ever created. I'm not saying everything in KDE 3 was entirely matured and without bugs, but it was at least generally at the level of say Netscape 3.0 Gold. But when everything good in KDE 3 was just chucked in the trash in favor of complete rewrites, as opposed to just using the Qt3->Qt4 migration layers and migrating at some distant point tin the future if it actually made sense, that wasted years of development time. GNOME 2 wasn't completely terrible, you could even use proper classic Mac OS style global menu bars if you ran the right extension, which the GNOME scum have delibrately sabotaged in later versions.

Is there a good solution? I don't know, I fully understand the urge to throw all the good work you previously did away and rewrite something that barely could be called a MVP from scratch. I suppose I should donate some money to the Trinity DE team for keeping on the good work.
 
Linux desktop enviroments suck anyways. Poor man's Windows/MacOS that put looking "just like the real thing!!1" above everything. Get a nice window manager and brew something up yourself. Bigger investment upfront but it pays off, IMO. You don't need to touch it for years, or really ever, once you've set it up. There's a lot of WMs out there that are basically feature complete and don't see this constant cacaphony of updates that keep reinventing the wheel and shuffling everything around so the maintainer gets to keep his corpo job. Also less nasty surprises because you know all the warts already. The biggest difference between DEs and WMs in my experience is that the people who work on WMs actually use Linux and their own product. You'll often catch many a DE developer talking about his Macbook. He does not run Linux on it.
KDE 3 and Gnome 2 were unceremoniously chucked in the trash for no reason.
All of the new designs that came after KDE 3 and GNOME 2 are bullshit. To be honest I've never been a big fan of either, but I can appreciate both of them. I tried TDE a while back. It was surprisingly slow to load and it had weird issues like sizing the system windows too short so you have to scroll for things that you shouldn't have to. Not sure what the fuck was going on there.

I used GNOME 2 extensively in my early days of Linux. It was the hot shit coupled with Compiz-Fusion. Way better than Aero Glass. I'm aware of MATE and I've used that a bit too, but I'm more of a "Classic Windows" kinda guy.

More recently, I used to use IceWM which worked okay but it had some issue where it would cause drop down menus on websites to stop working randomly. I put up with that for a few years. I'm on Xfce now and it works okay too, but I'm pretty pissed off about them trying to force GNOME-style buttons on the titlebar bullshit before reverting it in the next release after their userbase bitched them out.
Freak out how exactly? X by itself shouldn't really do anything when you plug in a monitor. That sounds more like the hotplug manager *cough*systemd's udev*cough* or (less likely, but always an option) the kernel's gpu drivers having a problem or the DE trying to do automagic windows-like things and failing spectacularily.

There's e.g. a really, really, really, really, really longstanding issue with (at least) intels gpu kernel drivers handling monitor EDIDs poorly and not always offering all supported resolutions and refresh rates as a result. (and also REFUSING custom ones) I had to edit and custom load on boot my Thinkpad's panel's EDID in order to get 50 Hz out of it. (important if you wanna emulate PAL games and have smooth scrolling) The kernel then proceeded to helpfully notify me that I am, indeed, loading a custom edid every time the monitor woke up from sleep, spamming me to death with messages. I ended up having to comment out the code that did that in the kernel source.
So, my new laptop (Lenovo P16 with Alder Lake 16c/24t and no discrete GPU) and running Arch Linux with Xorg and Xfce, has a 4k display, actually 3840x2400, which I was running at native resolution with a 2x scale (0.5x scale per the assbackwards Xfce display settings) for an effective resolution of 1920x1200. This worked okay, other than the fact that it was slightly blurry despite being an integer scale.

My LG 4k OLED TV, with HDR turned on, correctly reports itself as a 4k60 display. I also run this at native resolution and 2x scale, for an effective resolution of 1920x1080. When I hotplug this display, one of a few things happens. It switches over to that display only and turns off the laptop display, or it connects as my secondary display but changes the scale of my laptop display to 1x, or one of them starts flickering. Sometimes when I try to change the settings to what they should be on one display, the other changes to the wrong settings. Saying fuck 4k and running them both at non-native resolutions of 1920x1200 and 1920x1080 does not solve the problem. I even have a profile set up to apply settings when this combination of displays are detected and even that doesn't always work. There is also the issue of the rightmost two (scale) or four (native) pixel columns of the laptop display showing on the left edge of the TV's picture.

I also have KDE/Wayland installed, on the same hardware, same Arch Linux install. Under Wayland I have none of these issues, scaling works flawlessly, hotplug works flawlessly, I can set the settings once and they actually stick, and the picture quality at native resolution with 2x scale is identical to running 1920x1200 and 1920x1080 and letting the displays scale the images. Also, I can change the settings to whatever and things continue to work as expected.
 
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