The Linux Thread - The Autist's OS of Choice

[DavidS877]

AFAIK, when Linux programs eat shit it's because some userland library changed their APIs 50 times. Static linking (or special package managers that install the program and its dependencies in their own designated shitting street) can help at least a little.

That's a very polite way to describe containers.

 

[Creative Username]

That's a very polite way to describe containers.

???
You don't need containers to do this, just put the program-specific .so's such that the linker will find them before it falls back to the system libraries. There's a wacky environment variable called PATH and it can do some interesting things, and if you don't want that, I think you can just put your .so's in the same directory as the executable. And if you use static linking, you don't have to do any of this.

 

[DavidS877]

???
You don't need containers to do this, just put the program-specific .so's such that the linker will find them before it falls back to the system libraries. There's a wacky environment variable called PATH and it can do some interesting things, and if you don't want that, I think you can just put your .so's in the same directory as the executable. And if you use static linking, you don't have to do any of this.

Yes, use PATH to do this, let us know how it goes, it will be funny.

Containers are by far the easiest way for normal people to do it. Building AppImages or path tricks is a pain in the ass.

The variable you're thinking of is: LD_LIBRARY_PATH

And unless you set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to "." or the location of the executable it's not going to search the same directory as the executable.

$ cp /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 .
$ ldd ./a.out
    linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007fff5d792000)
    libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x00007fa35e898000)
    /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007fa35ea92000)
$ export LD_LIBRARY_PATH="."
$ ldd ./a.out
    linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007ffd03eaa000)
    libc.so.6 => ./libc.so.6 (0x00007f8a70e87000)
    /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f8a7106f000)

 

[Creative Username]

Yes, use PATH to do this, let us know how it goes, it will be funny.

Containers are by far the easiest way for normal people to do it. Building AppImages or path tricks is a pain in the ass.

The variable you're thinking of is: LD_LIBRARY_PATH

And unless you set LD_LIBRARY_PATH to "." or the location of the executable it's not going to search the same directory as the executable.

$ cp /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 .
$ ldd ./a.out
    linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007fff5d792000)
    libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x00007fa35e898000)
    /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007fa35ea92000)
$ export LD_LIBRARY_PATH="."
$ ldd ./a.out
    linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007ffd03eaa000)
    libc.so.6 => ./libc.so.6 (0x00007f8a70e87000)
    /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f8a7106f000)

Okay, I was slightly wrong. It's still a thing, however, and it's kind of the default in Windows, and I brought it up as the less-used Linux equivalent of that to solve the glue-eating-library-devs-changing-ABI-every-2-seconds problem.

On containers: I don't know much about containers, have never used containers, and I hope I never will. It makes my skin crawl for reasons that even I am oblivious to.

 

[DavidS877]

It makes my skin crawl for reasons that even I am oblivious to.

I probably shouldn't mention that some of the same underlying functionality used by AppImage, Flatpak and Snap is the same as containers.
(cgroups, namespaces, etc) AppImage uses the least unless the packager wants to improve security and implement sandboxing. Flatpak and Snap are almost containers with the technology they use.

 

[Creative Username]

I probably shouldn't mention that some of the same underlying functionality used by AppImage, Flatpak and Snap is the same as containers.
(cgroups, namespaces, etc) AppImage uses the least unless the packager wants to improve security and implement sandboxing. Flatpak and Snap are almost containers with the technology they use.

I knew that, I was only sperging about the library linking side of things.

You know what? Everything about computers is fucking gay and I want it all to burn to the ground. Let's go back to slapfighting over GIMP UX or whatever was going on.

 

[419]

Recently found out that it's been possible for a few years now to use SSH keys to also sign things rather than just authenticate, and that Git has also supported this for some time.

I wish I had known about this earlier before I got mugged off into setting up a new PGP key before finding out that PGP is actually pretty shit.

 

[The Ugly One]

Skill issue. How is it a massive piece of trash unsuitable for professional use?

Because professionals don't use it. Professionals adopt FOSS software when it's better, like how Linux has become standard for HPC, clang has pushed out most commercial C++ compilers, python has become universal, etc.

"Everyone is just too lazy and stupid to use this obviously superior product that has been around for 25 years, is free, is available on every platform, and is well-known."

Nah dude, if you can't make any market headway in 25 years, your product sucks.

No it's not because it's entirely against what FOSS stands for. If you don't like decentralized software, then fuck off back to Windows or Mac.

Linux is founded on a centrally managed kernel and a relatively standardized, agreed-upon system of other software, like bash, libcurl, gcc, and many others. Not to mention that every distro is itself centrally managed.

What? I've never come across a program that didn't work on my desktop environment and I've never seen that complaint anywhere. Find me one program that works on GNOME and doesn't work on KDE.

Why, is your Google broken?

Features specifically made for GNOME don't count.

Oh. LMAO. The eternal cope of the nigger-rigged system user. "Everything works perfectly well on it, except the things that don't."

 

[419]

except the things that don't

In this case, he meant the things that don't work on literally anything but the thing they were designed for (i.e. GNOME, hence not working on other common DEs like Plasma). You don't have to be that disingenuous now.

 

[JoseRaulChupacabra]

What makes Photoshop more suitable for professional use? The fact that it crashes constantly which means you lose all of your progress up to that point?

I hate that Adobe owns everyone's ass, but even if tomorrow, GIMP drops the autism like Blender did, it's going to face an uphill battle against Photoshop, as not only is Ps available at a low cost, but the entire world across multiple industries have it as a standard. In those use cases, the most important question is "can I easily open shit from someone else, or can someone else open my shit without stuff breaking."

Also, what the fuck are you doing with Photoshop that makes it crash all the time?

Nah dude, if you can't make any market headway in 25 years, your product sucks.

To be fair, even though artsy people have a well deserved shit lib reputation, the one place where everyone there is conservative is their tools and software. It takes a loooooooong time for shit to get displaced unless some big disruption hits like Apple shitting up Final Cut Pro which forced snobs to admit that Adobe Premiere IS sufficient, or Blackmagic Design introducing predatorily priced software/gear, or RED coming out with relatively low cost digital cinema cameras.

Because professionals don't use it.

This. Collaboration is important, and file format "compatibility" doesn't always work right. Having the same software cuts out potential headaches and gives everyone peace of mind.

 

[Betonhaus]

What? I've never come across a program that didn't work on my desktop environment and I've never seen that complaint anywhere. Find me one program that works on GNOME and doesn't work on KDE.

The driver/software package for Smart Boards will not work on KDE at all. They're used to manage the touchscreen and accessories used on a smart board, and will simply not function on KDE. I imagine that there are similar problems with software designed to work with proprietary systems.

Additionally, this driver package will fail to install of anything newer then Ubuntu 20.04 due to dependency issues that Smart never bothered to deal with. Another strike against Linux in an environment where you will be dependent on proprietary drivers from companies not committed to releasing regular updates.

 

[The Pulverizer]

Nah dude, if you can't make any market headway in 25 years, your product sucks.

This isn't a console war. If it works better for some people, then they'll use it. The professionals have been working with Adobe products for over 2 decades now so naturally they'll choose that over something that is unknown to them.

Oh. LMAO. The eternal cope of the nigger-rigged system user. "Everything works perfectly well on it, except the things that don't."

That's like expecting a Half Life 1 mod to work in GTAV lol. Why would you expect a feature that's tailor-made for GNOME to work in another desktop environment, you fucking retard.

Not to mention that every distro is itself centrally managed.

Yeah distros are so centrally managed that anyone can contribute to them. Linux is literally Apple.

 

[The Ugly One]

In this case, he meant the things that don't work on literally anything but the thing they were designed for (i.e. GNOME, hence not working on other common DEs like Plasma). You don't have to be that disingenuous now.

There's nothing disingenuous about it whatsoever. When two platforms aren't compatible, it's because of feature/API/dependency differences. That is the fucking problem. So saying, "everything works equally well on both platforms, except programs that have feature/API/dependency differences, lol," is disingenuous as fuck. It's like saying, "Find me one place in this city that is unsafe at night, places where niggers and bums are don't count."

This isn't even a problem unique to the wild west of Linux desktop. Look at web development. Safari has a 20% market share, meaning a huge number of users, yet plenty of web devs don't even bother to validate their code on it. Just not worth it. Oh, you found a bug? Switch to Chrome, they tell you. Linux desktop is especially annoying, because you're 1% of the market, and that 1% is so fragmented that our support & verification costs are, no exaggeration, about 5x higher than they are on Windows, and it's only that low by dropping Debian & Arch support. It's only worth it because of Linux's huge share of the server market.

I've been developing, supporting, and selling Linux software for my entire career. When I say that the wild west nature of the platform is a problem, I know what I'm talking about. This KDE/Gnome/Wayland/X/etc slapfight is one of the major reasons software support sucks on Linux. Linux world had no problem standardizing on bash, GLIBC, and other GNU tools, all the copes and excuses for why it can't get its shit together for the GUI are just that, copes and excuses.

Yeah distros are so centrally managed that anyone can contribute to them.

Major distros only work like this in Richard Stallman's toejam-fueled dreams. You think the C++ standard is some kind of decentralized effort with no definable group at the helm? How about OpenGL? How about python? How about bash? You depend on centrally managed, uniform standards for your OS to even be remotely viable. So fuck off with this "standards go against the spirit of FOSS" bullshit. It's just cope you came up with for why the GUI is a shitshow.

The professionals have been working with Adobe products for over 2 decades now so naturally they'll choose that over something that is unknown to them.

GIMP has been around for 25 years, everybody knows what it is.

 

[The Pulverizer]

There's nothing disingenuous about it whatsoever. When two platforms aren't compatible, it's because of feature/API/dependency differences. That is the fucking problem. So saying, "everything works equally well on both platforms, except programs that have feature/API/dependency differences, lol," is disingenuous as fuck. It's like saying, "Find me one place in this city that is unsafe at night, places where niggers and bums are don't count."

>Okay boys. We are manufacturing our console.
>We are not going to invest in exclusive games, develop any features that are exclusive to our platform, and it will basically be a reskin of other popular consoles that offers nothing new to the player.
Make that make sense. Do you assume that GNOME devs don't want people to use GNOME?

Linux desktop is especially annoying, because you're 1% of the market, and that 1% is so fragmented that our support & verification costs are, no exaggeration, about 5x higher than they are on Windows

What the fuck is a support and verification cost? I've never had to pay for anything on Linux.

Major distros only work like this in Richard Stallman's toejam-fueled dreams.

Will Microsoft accept my fork of Minecraft and implement it into the game?

GIMP has been around for 25 years, everybody knows what it is.

Someone who's never played a first or third-person shooter before isn't going to immediately understand what he's looking at. Does that mean that 3D shooters are objectively broken?

Image and video editing software are not accessible to people who don't bother reading the instructions. Photoshop especially has a very high skill ceiling. Why would I (a professional who makes money from my work) sacrifice everything and spend years mastering some completely different software?

 

[seri0us]

Do you assume that GNOME devs don't want people to use GNOME?

With how atrocious it is, sure feels that way.

 

[Gargamel]

the GUI is a shitshow

They should just implement the lower parts of the Win32 graphical subsystem on Linux and make it use WDDM graphics drivers. Put an X server on top of it for Linux programs and make it so Wine can bypass or punch through that for improved compatibility.

They already have some code to use as a starting point in the form of ReactOS.

 

[demicolon]

I fucking hate PulseAudio so much. It regularily crashes Windows in Virtualbox with audio enabled, and I can't switch to either ALSA or OSS and can't update to Pipewire or whatever new version it is. Some Wine applications stutter like crazy and have to be ran in Virtualbox which, again, crashes the machine in 5 minutes or so.

Also fuck having to fiddle with literally everything when whatever you're trying to get through apt install and it's an endless nightmare of unresolved dependencies. If Software Manager doesn't have what you're looking for, pray the stars align and it installs without hitch or forget it

And I'm using the Ubuntu For Niggers which is Linux Mint. I'm not going back on Windows 10+ 'cause fuck forcing me to leave the PC running for 10 hours and finding out it still updates in the morning. If there's a power or Internet outage then FUCK YOU, it's bricked, have fun reinstalling. And how about fixing your architecture so you don't need antiviruses/endless updates for Windows to not be pozzed the moment you open the browser.

 

[Rusty Metal Skull Gun]

They should just implement the lower parts of the Win32 graphical subsystem on Linux and make it use WDDM graphics drivers. Put an X server on top of it for Linux programs and make it so Wine can bypass or punch through that for improved compatibility.

There's over 1300 exports in win32u.dll, and every one of them is a syscall. Lol

They already have some code to use as a starting point in the form of ReactOS.

Lmao even

 

[Susanna]

GIMP is available on Windows and Mac. If it weren't a massive piece of trash unsuitable for professional use, it would have a lot more professional users because it's free. And don't "BUT MUH MARKETING." Plenty of FOSS has wide industrial adoption, like Rocky Linux and LLVM.

It even has better tools than Photoshop. Just compare how easy it is to draw a bell pepper in either one.

Truth to be told, one of the few things that Windows does right is retro-compatibility, something that on Linux is difficult or even impossible sadly. Old games on Windows 11 (usually) run without too many issues/almost none.

Yet I often hear that retro gaming on windows pretty much requires an era appropriate computer, because new windows won’t run old games and old windows won’t work right in VMs. It’s been my experience that Wine is very reliable for old windows software.
I don’t think either OS is strictly better here, but it is ironic how, if you want to run old software in Linux, you’re usually better off running the windows version with Wine than the Linux version directly.

 

[Gargamel]

There's over 1300 exports in win32u.dll, and every one of them is a syscall. Lol


Lmao even

But think of the benefits.