The Linux Thread - The Autist's OS of Choice

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Akerman said:
Redditors seem to be getting more & more fed up with Wayland lately. Usually these types of posts have a lot of downdoots from the cultists, rampant accusations of XLibre fascist promotion, "it werks for me" or w/e else, but not this time.

You even have people calling for people to just go back to X11 now:

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My application is probably the first to add support for global hotkeys (shortcut) on wayland (I added it long ago) and I can say that its broken by design. To begin with it's not actually "global hotkeys" as people expect, it's closer to remote actions that you can trigger. For example when you use global shortcuts on kde you can suggest hotkeys that it will use and the user can change them and the application is able to list the shortcuts in its settings. As you would expect it to work.
Hyprland on the other hand just ignores the suggested hotkeys. You have to instead run a command manually as the user to list the hotkeys that you are expect to manually bind to keys in your hyprland config file. You have to do this when the application is running. You cant even see which application the hotkey is registered from so you dont know what it exactly does. Hyprland doesn't show the application the hotkeys registered either, so the application cant list which hotkeys do what.
This is what it looks like in hyprland:
$ hyprctl globalshortcuts
:Record -> Start recording
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How is a user even supposed to know that the application has registered hotkeys when the application cant show them? You have to design a special hyprland specific UI in your application that tells the user to run this command manually and then manually register them.

The global shortcuts api also works differently on different wayland compositors. For example on gnome you are expect to call BindShortcuts on startup, otherwise hotkeys dont work. If you do that on KDE then it will show the hotkey settings (kde settings) everytime you start your application. So to make this work you have to check which wayland compositor you are running and do different behaviors for each one, even though wayland doesn't have a way to know which wayland compositor you are using (you have to guess based on available protocols).

All of these different behaviors are valid interpretations of the global shortcuts specification since it's too vague.

Global shortcuts also has issues in every wayland compositor. For example on hyprland it used to crash the entire desktop portal. I had to create a pull request to fix it. In gnome it still "crashes" the desktop portal if you change a hotkey. Hotkeys stop working in the application even if you restart it. You have to restart the desktop portal instead.
There is also the issue where desktop portal "security" verifies the identity of a process based on its process tree, so if that changes then all of the registered shortcuts disappear in the application. For example if you launch your application from the terminal and another time from the application launcher then they will have different set of registered hotkeys in your application. This can happen even if you for example change your application launcher to another one or change your display manager to another one.
How is a user supposed to know that?

It's so bad that in my next application I instead ignore wayland global shortcuts. I instead get root access and then do global hotkeys through the linux api directly. This works on both x11 and all wayland compositors, in the same way.
 
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hog cranking frog said:
Why is it impossible to have window shading in Wayland? Feature I've used for decades. Why? Why is every bug ticket or proposed fix to plasma on this front closed? Why? What do these people have against me simply rolling a windows contents up into the title bar? Why?
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It's definitely not impossible. There are things with animations like that on Wayland. I have a feeling they probably just don't want to do it anymore, and plan on completely dropping it at some point in the future, likely when they drop x11 support.
 
daffodils said:
Kind of, but also Wayland-related. They've known about the bug since 2017, but they can't find a way to fix it on Wayland without adding a lot of complexity.
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That's really fucking embarrassing. I had a specific bug with Wayland where my AMDGPU would freeze under it, but not X11. It had something do with Wayland's wonky dynamic power support. The bug probably still exists.

This is a bug report that describes it. It effected a lot of framework laptops because of the specific integrated GPU it uses.
 
prollyanotherlurker said:
the only ones I know of that are doing it, are fedora (well probably the other redhat stuff), and ubuntu. Neither, I would ever use by choice. Not because of them dropping xorg, I already wouldn't have used them.
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It's going to depend on GNOME 50 which is when they'll forcibly drop X11 support and actively start removing it from the codebase.

Or so they say. They said that with GNOME 48 but got cold feet. Removing X11 support just breaks way too much shit, including things like GIMP and LibreOffice which aren't exactly obscure or outdated applications.

So really I have no idea what's going to happen.
 
daffodils said:
Kind of, but also Wayland-related. They've known about the bug since 2017, but they can't find a way to fix it on Wayland without adding a lot of complexity.

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It definitely seems to be a choice at this point. Especially reading what's in that thread.

Hyprland (the only good Wayland compositor), can handle moving and resizing windows, and animations with the mouse/touchpad and gesture just fine, and it seems to interact properly with all the windows around it, and I would think having that work properly with tiles windows might be slightly more complicated than floating, but idk.

They definitely don't have window shading in hyprland, but as far as I know there shouldn't be any reason a window should be treated differently when it's shrunk into the title bar, instead of being resized some other way. Unless there is something I'm misunderstanding about how window shading works.
 
Frederica Bernkastel said:
That's really fucking embarrassing. I had a specific bug with Wayland where my AMDGPU would freeze under it, but not X11. It had something do with Wayland's wonky dynamic power support. The bug probably still exists.

This is a bug report that describes it. It effected a lot of framework laptops because of the specific integrated GPU it uses.
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Despite everybody recommending amd on linux amd is terrible. I regret buying my amd gpu. I have a lot of gpu driver issues, on both x11 and wayland (similar to what you posted). I unironically had far less issues with nvidia. My computer is unusable unless I enabled software cursor, otherwise the cursor will randomly lag. This is also related to dynamic power. Amd drivers are terrible.
 
dec05eba said:
My computer is unusable unless I enabled software cursor, otherwise the cursor will randomly lag.
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This is the same issue I had all of a sudden one day and I could not diagnose for a long while.
What's interesting is that I did not have this issue with polaris or vega cards. It started happening months after I installed a RDNA3 card. No downgrade, reinstalling or whatever would fix it so it's not some package that caused this months after.
 
Premium Dog Food said:
This is the same issue I had all of a sudden one day and I could not diagnose for a long while.
What's interesting is that I did not have this issue with polaris or vega cards. It started happening months after I installed a RDNA3 card. No downgrade, reinstalling or whatever would fix it so it's not some package that caused this months after.
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Have you tried Xlibre? They've been doing a lot of work related to curser rendering and they might have fixed what's causing your troubles
 
Betonhaus said:
Have you tried Xlibre? They've been doing a lot of work related to curser rendering and they might have fixed what's causing your troubles
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Not yet, but I will keep it in mind and try it when I have time to potentially break my system. Will report back if it has any difference then.
 
Premium Dog Food said:
It started happening months after I installed a RDNA3 card
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I have RDNA3 too (specifically rx 7800 xt).. maybe its specific to RDNA3 cards. I was never able to find anyone else on the internet with the same issue and I was not sure what exactly the issue was so it was hard to report it
Betonhaus said:
Have you tried Xlibre? They've been doing a lot of work related to curser rendering and they might have fixed what's causing your troubles
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Im not sure if that is related, I have looked at that code. It mainly fixes visually glitched cursor, especially on nvidia with modesetting driver. My gut feeling is that it has to do with cursor plane modesetting. The amd driver seems to make it wait too long time for it to finish the operation (the cursor update).
 
analrapist said:
I run a Ryzen 5700G and it's rock solid. Sorry to hear your bad experience.
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There are some amd issues that affect your system as well, depending on what software you use. Amd has terrible gpu scheduling so if you run multiple graphical applications then the main application (the game you are playing) will have all priority and everything else will run like dog shit. That means if you play a heavy game and alt tab then everything will lag like shit and also if you try to use a screen recorder for example then it will be laggy. For example obs will report "encoding overload" and record at 5 fps. This also affects other software such as vr, so vr headsets lag. My rx 7800 xt lags more in vr than my gtx 1080 did, despite being much more performant. There are some hacks around this, such as cap_sys_nice, but this doesn't always work (and for flatp-ACK users cap_sys_nice doesn't work at all).
This is specifically an issue in mesa, so it affects intel as well.

There is also another issue that affects all amd users that is related to this gpu scheduling and its an issue in my own application. If you use a video encoder/decoder (vaapi), for example if you are recording your screen and then play a video then the screen recorder will run slower, even after you close the video. It will keep being much slower than before, forever. The only way to fix this is to use a debug environment variable (AMD_DEBUG=lowlatencyenc) before you record. That fixes the issue but your gpu will also be at a higher power usage the whole time.
 
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Outer Space Traveller said:
Beginner question: I use Linux Mint and noticed I use Wayland. How can I switch to XLibre?
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oh no. throw your computer out. it's broken now.
dec05eba said:
There are some amd issues that affect your system as well, depending on what software you use. Amd has terrible gpu scheduling so if you run multiple graphical applications then the main application (the game you are playing) will have all priority and everything else will run like dog shit. That means if you play a heavy game and alt tab then everything will lag like shit and also if you try to use a screen recorder for example then it will be laggy. For example obs will report "encoding overload" and record at 5 fps. This also affects other software such as vr, so vr headsets lag. My rx 7800 xt lags more in vr than my gtx 1080 did, despite being much more performant. There are some hacks around this, such as cap_sys_nice, but this doesn't always work (and for flatp-ACK users cap_sys_nice doesn't work at all).
This is specifically an issue in mesa, so it affects intel as well.

There is also another issue that affects all amd users that is related to this gpu scheduling and its an issue in my own application. If you use a video encoder/decoder (vaapi), for example if you are recording your screen and then play a video then the screen recorder will run slower, even after you close the video. It will keep being much slower than before, forever. The only way to fix this is to use a debug environment variable (AMD_DEBUG=lowlatencyenc) before you record. That fixes the issue but your gpu will also be at a higher power usage the whole time.
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works on my machine :smug:
 
dec05eba said:
Despite everybody recommending amd on linux amd is terrible. I regret buying my amd gpu. I have a lot of gpu driver issues, on both x11 and wayland (similar to what you posted). I unironically had far less issues with nvidia. My computer is unusable unless I enabled software cursor, otherwise the cursor will randomly lag. This is also related to dynamic power. Amd drivers are terrible.
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I agree with this in general, dedicated AMDGPUs are awfully made. I oddly have had better luck with the integrated AMD graphics on laptops. My laptop with an old Radeon card (that is able to use the amdgpu driver) has none of those problems, which is both interesting and kind of funny.
 
Akerman said:
I agree with this in general, dedicated AMDGPUs are awfully made. I oddly have had better luck with the integrated AMD graphics on laptops. My laptop with an old Radeon card (that is able to use the amdgpu driver) has none of those problems, which is both interesting and kind of funny.
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On the other hand my Ryzen 9 5900HS AMD iGPU laptop decided a few months ago to start crashing(hard crash, no panic, no Control-Alt-F1, just dead) likely with some combination of Firmware and Kernel bugs. amdgpu.dedebugmask=0x10 seemed to fix it up along with the latest firmware and 6.12 LTS kernel.

I have one AMD GPU that I wanted to use for AI, but AI support is mostly shit. Also the audio would often devolve into cracking. I have one AMD iGPU desktop which will hang X11 but can usually be recovered by Control-Alt-F1 and either "xset dpms force standby" or using xrandr --off and then --auto on the proper output, annoyingly xrandr won't switch when X11 isn't the active VT, so I do "sleep 3; xrandr .... " and then Alt-whateverX11isrunningon.
 
Betonhaus said:
You can change it in the login menu, click on the symbol on the little login window.

But I'm surprised because Wayland support on Linux Mint is still experimental and disabled by default
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Thank you. And I don't know - I saw on the updates package.
prollyanotherlurker said:
oh no. throw your computer out. it's broken now.
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Trannyputer, lolz.
 
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