The Linux Thread - The Autist's OS of Choice

[Slav Power]

I'm most hyped about the controller, then the VR headset second. Though about the headset: seems like it's doing the Oculus Quest idea of being a standalone console, but it's ARM64 based and running SteamOS 3, which is based on... Arch...

How does the ARM64 support for Arch look like exactly? Does Valve basically has to compile everything on their own to fit the architecture?

 

[Max Weber]

People like this shouldn't have access to any x86 computers period and should buy a fucking console and a smartphone instead.

Good thing then that Frame is based on Snapdragon®, so Valve is now also The Saviours of Linux on ARM®!

ETA:

How does the ARM64 support for Arch look like exactly? Does Valve basically has to compile everything on their own to fit the architecture?

It doesn't. Arch is x86_64 only, with 32-bit available through multilib repo, and any other architectures being downstream distros with no support from Arch proper. For ARM there's Arch Linux ARM, but I don't know much beyond them existing.

 

[acid_ra1n]

The point is that the increase in Linux users on Steam isn't due to people leaving Windows but due to people buying Steam Decks, and the Linux on Steam Deck is incomparable to Linux on a regular PC. There isn't and there never will be a SteamOS equivalent for your average PC due to how much manual work has to go into making it work so well. Since this discussion was started by the question of "how Linux is doing after Win10 EOL" then this is the answer for the Steam Survey data: the Linux stats are inflated by the Steam Deck which don't reflect the reality of people migrating from Windows to Linux.

That, and a daily reminder that if you're waiting for SteamOS to save your ass, it won't. Either move to Win11 or move to Linux now, because you're not getting a savior distro to fix all the inherent issues of desktop Linux. You either deal with those yourself or you deal with Windows issues.

So one thing to remember is we live in a world where we own multiple devices
The fact that people are able to buy a computer, and a linux gaming computer at that wasnt possible like 5 years ago
Just a couple years back I was still dual booting windows and Linux, we aren't expecting people to just dump an operating system they may have used for 10 years wipe their drive and move to Linux within a month of windows 10 going eol
But gaming was always a huge sticking point for switching your computer over and if PC gamers get adjusted to their gaming computers running Linux a lot of them may find that they can move their desktops over to Linux in the near future

 

[Slav Power]

Arch is x86_64 only

I know, which is why I got surprised by that it's running Arch on ARM64.

but I don't know much beyond them existing

Found them with a rudimentary search as well but who knows how much support they give.

But gaming was always a huge sticking point for switching your computer over and if PC gamers get adjusted to their gaming computers running Linux a lot of them may find that they can move their desktops over to Linux in the near future

Thing is that you already have it. Install Mint, drivers, Steam, you're set. But people don't want to do that because they're expecting Valve to be their savior with SteamOS. These people have zero idea about what Linux is and how it works and are expecting a carbon copy of Windows that's "not Windows" and "not Microsoft" and "not shit", and they're the loudest, most obnoxious group that will get under the skin of the Linux community sooner than later. They aren't willing to learn anything new, they are expecting a miracle. Well, they don't know themselves what is it that they'll actually want is the core issue.

 

[Froggy Fresh Sextape]

the Linux stats are inflated by the Steam Deck which don't reflect the reality of people migrating from Windows to Linux.

I have no idea why this is sorted by ascending don't @ me

Looks like SteamOS is 27%, Ubuntu Core 22 must be some other handheld, so like 35% total? Most of it's desktop.

 

[Baraka Obama]

I know several people who stopped using (outdated) gaming PCs in favor of just docking their steam deck to a monitor or TV. Then use a macbook or really weak windows laptop for "computer" tasks.

For that kind of use case a Steam Machine makes a lot of sense -- get full access to your back catalog, can run whatever you want with some minor effort, cheaper games than a console -- but much better off than using a Steam Deck for the same thing.

 

[Akerman]

Digital Foundry has a video on it.
It looks good for a home style console that runs SteamOS (Arch); it's more or less a slightly less powerful XSX/PS5.
My only worry is that it has 8gb vram; which some games struggle with now (ie Monster Hunter Wilds at 1080p). Hopefully they have a way that the vram can be shared with the system (something similar to unified memory that macs use), or eventually release a 16gb vram version.

Wow, I did not expect this. Apparently it will support multiple displays, mouse and keyboard and access to a Linux Desktop. As for unified memory like macs, I doubt it, but it is interesting they say it supports HDMI 2.1, but that is an AMD GPU which I thought didn't support that on Linux? Did they patch it themselves or is it different with that hardware?

 

[prollyanotherlurker]

I am not a fan of a lot of the formatting on the wikis, sometimes I miss stuff because they place info boxes all over the place for every minor use case. When I followed the Arch Wiki installation guide the first time for example I totally missed the bootloader section since it's just a hyperlink to a separate article which breaks consistency with the other steps where there is at least some information and then a link to a dedicated page, and the info boxes sometimes clutter up various steps depending on the article and who wrote it. I knew that I needed to install a bootloader, I wasn't totally new to Linux when I did my first Arch install but I accidently missed it due to this break towards the bottom.

That's why I mentioned guides also. Installing arch is one of the things that is actually a perfect use case for those. You can find tons of them.

https://github.com/silentz/arch-linux-install-guide

https://www.jeremymorgan.com/blog/linux/how-to-install-arch-linux-installer/

https://dev.to/jimmymcbride/hitchhikers-guide-to-the-arch-linux-installation-40hd

Usually if there is something that's a bit technical, in the same vein as installing arch, and popular enough to warrant one. You can find something like these.

Also the gentoo handbook, I think should be mentioned. It's what arches installation guide should be. It makes sure to put the pages you need to look at in the handbook, and for the one's it doesn't put in the handbook, you will have to follow the links because it's impossible to continue the installation if you don't. Like setting up networking. I think installing arch manually has gotten a bad name over the years, because arch's guide isn't the best. It does explain everything you need, but for new people it doesn't do it in a way they can easily grasp.

 

[Susanna]

it is interesting they say it supports HDMI 2.1, but that is an AMD GPU which I thought didn't support that on Linux? Did they patch it themselves or is it different with that hardware?

There is no way it actually supports HDMI 2.1. AMD have been pushing back on that piece of retardation for years with zero results, and Valve won’t risk the lawsuit to patch the drivers for it, if they even could (pretty sure that stuff is in the proprietary blob). The hardware probably does support it though. If it has a DisplayPort-passthrough USB-C like most modern computers though, you can use a normal USB-C -> HDMI cable to get 4k120, since HDMI accepts DP signals just fine.

 

[Zeftax]

Valve announced the Steam Machine

Yooooo, they made steam machine real??

 

[Slav Power]

Yooooo, they made steam machine real??

I mean, they already did but...

...it took them like a decade to perfect it.

 

[acid_ra1n]

pc gamers laugh at me when i say rgb is tacky tasteless garbage
betcha they forgot all about rgb when they looked at the gabecube

I know, which is why I got surprised by that it's running Arch on ARM64.

Found them with a rudimentary search as well but who knows how much support they give.

Thing is that you already have it. Install Mint, drivers, Steam, you're set. But people don't want to do that because they're expecting Valve to be their savior with SteamOS. These people have zero idea about what Linux is and how it works and are expecting a carbon copy of Windows that's "not Windows" and "not Microsoft" and "not shit", and they're the loudest, most obnoxious group that will get under the skin of the Linux community sooner than later. They aren't willing to learn anything new, they are expecting a miracle. Well, they don't know themselves what is it that they'll actually want is the core issue.

so normies don't really understand the difference between hardware and software
linus torvalds once said in revolution OS that users don't really care what an operating system is, it's just the thing that loads their programs

pc gamers are like right on the cusp of understanding computers and maybe they have technical knowledge, but they lack the mindset that they can choose their software freely. it's just not a concept to them, because they only know consoom product

in the mind of a normie, windows is the only option because all of their software is made for windows. all their games work on windows. all the vendors they ask for support from say we don't support linux, use windows.

what is happening is valve is popping pc gamers' cherries, showing them that software and games do indeed work on an operating system that is not windows. and it can be supported by a vendor on hardware they can buy

that's why microsoft needs to be scared. linux on its own will never be a selling point as long as nobody's ever used it. but if people can have a working demo of a linux desktop, they'll eventually realize it doesn't just run on a console, and it does a lot more than just play video games.

 

[Slav Power]

that's why microsoft needs to be scared

Microsoft will be scared once Linux can perfectly run just about any Win32 software without a hitch since it's the most stable ABI there is. Steam Machine and Steam Deck will only make a small dent in their desktop dominance. Some people will be happy with how the Machine/Deck is set up, some will try and move to Linux on their desktops, but the majority will still be on Windows, as most other software that people use still only runs on there. Adobe, Autodesk, MS Office, and dozens upon dozens of lesser programs used in businesses and workspaces that run on Windows, demanding Windows use. That's Microsoft's biggest stronghold right now, and once Linux start eating into that, then the fear will start.

However, any and all pushes in FOSS that lead to better alternatives all stem from other businesses being too fed up with the company behind a product, pushing for a open solution as that's just easier and more beneficial to all corpos in the end. The Linux kernel is the powerhouse it is today only because big corpos saw a massive benefit in being able to all work on a Unix clone without having to go through back-and-forths with Sun/HP/IBM/whatever and, again, being beholden to some corpo for their own business to run. Without that (and without GNU GPL v2), Linux would forever remain this hobbyist OS of some student in Helsinki.

Similarly, the reason Blender became such a magnificent piece of software is because everyone was sick of Autodesk and 3DS Max being a steaming pile of shit. That's when a massive development push happened when we got Blender 2.8 and all the subsequent versions where Blender is now the industry standard and it's completely free. Or OBS, where the biggest sponsors are the streaming platforms and GPU manufacturers. The wide availability of solid streaming software is at a net benefit to them, and it's much better to have it open than to be beholden to companies like SplitmediaLabs. But those are far and few in-between. For example we still don't have an equivalent competitor for the Adobe suite or Autodesk's CAD software that's still the industry standard.

Microsoft's biggest worry right now is making sure that they won't enshittify 11 with broken monthly updates to the point where it can't even do it's basic job of being a Windows NT OS and running Win32 software. Valve's efforts are largely overestimated in the ultimate OS market share as that's all just games, and what Valve is doing isn't aiming to dethrone Windows on their Steam Survey stats, but to have an avenue to offer Steam games that isn't dependent on Microsoft. Going back to the Steam Survey stats, if you were to look at the yearly growth of the Linux users, but account for Steam Deck users, the uptick would be much smaller. And you can't really account for whether or not someone ditched Windows for Linux so those stats aren't a good representation of Linux eating into Windows' market share to begin with, since you'll want for existing users to switch over, not just for new users to start off on Linux.

Then again, like I said, Linux is faaaar from being a serious threat to Windows. Once Wine developers collectively pull their heads out of their own asses and get some proper backing to make Win32 the ultimate ABI on Linux, then we can talk about Linux dominance.

 

[Susanna]

so normies don't really understand the difference between hardware and software
linus torvalds once said in revolution OS that users don't really care what an operating system is, it's just the thing that loads their programs

pc gamers are like right on the cusp of understanding computers and maybe they have technical knowledge, but they lack the mindset that they can choose their software freely. it's just not a concept to them, because they only know consoom product

in the mind of a normie, windows is the only option because all of their software is made for windows. all their games work on windows. all the vendors they ask for support from say we don't support linux, use windows.

what is happening is valve is popping pc gamers' cherries, showing them that software and games do indeed work on an operating system that is not windows. and it can be supported by a vendor on hardware they can buy

that's why microsoft needs to be scared. linux on its own will never be a selling point as long as nobody's ever used it. but if people can have a working demo of a linux desktop, they'll eventually realize it doesn't just run on a console, and it does a lot more than just play video games.

IBM learned this lesson the hard way back in the 90s. There are actually many parallels to desktop Linux.
OS/2 was in many ways superior to Windows, but IBM didn’t support third party developers enough, which led to them staying on Windows. And customers also stayed on Windows, because that’s where all their software was. When OS/2 gained a Windows compatibility layer that allowed it to seamlessly run Windows software, it did so in order to attract Windows users to the platform (”we can run your software now!”), but this also ensured developers wouldn’t develop for it because they could just make Windows software that would run on both platforms, and users stayed with Windows because that’s what they were already using. IBM needed to entice developers to migrate from the start, by offering incentives and better documentation, and informing them about how OS/2’s superior APIs would make their jobs easier. Proton is a good step forward for those of us who just want to run Windows software without installing Windows, but without enticement to make native Linux software, the platform won’t ever be more than just an alternative (speaking about video games specifically). Linux isn’t in quite as bad a situation as OS/2 was, because we do have a lot of features Windows doesn’t have, and isn’t actively competing with (ReFS for example could have made Windows a competitor in the NAS field, but Microsoft seem uninterested in that).

 

[Baraka Obama]

Microsoft will be scared once Linux can perfectly run just about any Win32 software without a hitch since it's the most stable ABI there is. Steam Machine and Steam Deck will only make a small dent in their desktop dominance. Some people will be happy with how the Machine/Deck is set up, some will try and move to Linux on their desktops, but the majority will still be on Windows, as most other software that people use still only runs on there. Adobe, Autodesk, MS Office, and dozens upon dozens of lesser programs used in businesses and workspaces that run on Windows, demanding Windows use. That's Microsoft's biggest stronghold right now, and once Linux start eating into that, then the fear will start.

Microsoft was scared of the iPad to the point that they nearly destroyed their entire ecosystem including win32 trying to combat it. They were scared of the rise of Chromebooks eating their low end and stealing nearly all the primary & secondary school computer market along the way, their response has been several attempts at cut down versions of windows most of which don't run win32. They were scared of ARM macs to the point that they have invested heavily in Windows on ARM and as recently as last year pushed that as the default all the while it doesn't successfully run "any Win32 software without a hitch," They were scared of Linux's success in servers and the rise of cloud to the point that they made a huge investment in Azure, which now completely dwarfs the Windows revenue they earn yearly.

I am going to explicitly state this post is intended to bait you and see if you can resist.

 

[Slav Power]

I am going to explicitly state this post is intended to bait you and see if you can resist.

Vidya is still small fry in comparison to all of that. After all, Microsoft has Xbox. Or, had.

Come to think of it, Microsoft will fear Valve once the Xbox division starts to shit itself proper, not Windows.

 

[acid_ra1n]

Vidya is still small fry in comparison to all of that. After all, Microsoft has Xbox. Or, had.

Come to think of it, Microsoft will fear Valve once the Xbox division starts to shit itself proper, not Windows.

I wonder how long and hard they can fuck themselves in the ass before they have to face consequences for their actions

 

[Tremolo]

what is happening is valve is popping pc gamers' cherries, showing them that software and games do indeed work on an operating system that is not windows. and it can be supported by a vendor on hardware they can buy

that's why microsoft needs to be scared. linux on its own will never be a selling point as long as nobody's ever used it. but if people can have a working demo of a linux desktop, they'll eventually realize it doesn't just run on a console, and it does a lot more than just play video games.

Gamers just want good products, migration to the broader linux sphere from SteamOS will be minimal because if SteamOS "just works" as a gaming pc then they will have no desire or need to move, and if they feel no need they wouldn't really give the idea of linux itself much thought. Really if I was a betting man I'd say that if the valve gaming pc takes off then SteamOS will just end up in its own ecosystem with a somewhat different culture to the typical linux scene, though since any work on SteamOS would be work on Arch (thus work on linux) this would be fine too.

The benefits that have actually come out as a result of valve working with linux is Proton+Wine improvements, outside of that there is nothing special about the whole SteamOS situation, other than the fact that (big company) worked on it. As a whole it feels like this is what people want valve to do judging by public sentiment, make a distro and slap their name on it to appeal to normies and the like, but I don't see how this actually improves linux itself, and its in practice very akin to asking for a corpo bail out or hand me out, the best case scenario for any corpo working with linux is that they can provide software that the broader community can use to improve linux further.

 

[August Levasseur]

Gamers just want good products, migration to the broader linux sphere from SteamOS will be minimal because if SteamOS "just works" as a gaming pc then they will have no desire or need to move, and if they feel no need they wouldn't really give the idea of linux itself much thought. Really if I was a betting man I'd say that if the valve gaming pc takes off then SteamOS will just end up in its own ecosystem with a somewhat different culture to the typical linux scene, though since any work on SteamOS would be work on Arch (thus work on linux) this would be fine too.

The benefits that have actually come out as a result of valve working with linux is Proton+Wine improvements, outside of that there is nothing special about the whole SteamOS situation, other than the fact that (big company) worked on it. As a whole it feels like this is what people want valve to do judging by public sentiment, make a distro and slap their name on it to appeal to normies and the like, but I don't see how this actually improves linux itself, and its in practice very akin to asking for a corpo bail out or hand me out, the best case scenario for any corpo working with linux is that they can provide software that the broader community can use to improve linux further.

The interesting demographic will be people who use their gaming PC for games and work. If people like that are able to start switching to SteamOS or "normie" distros like Mint without issue, then the door for Linux to gain market share in normal desktop usage will wide open.
I've heard some promising things about people running enterprise Windows software under Wine/Proton, but I don't have enough experience myself to say if that's workable or not. It should be noted Microsoft themselves has pushed hard for Office 365 over running Office natively, which only requires a working web browser, and plenty of other enterprise software companies have been pushing Cloud-based/browser native versions of their software for a while now.

People have been predicting that people running Linux-based "thin clients," logging into huge servers to do all their actual work, will be the next big thing since the 90s (it's why X windows was designed to allow windowing over the network, back when dinosaurs still roamed the earth and Solaris was relevant), and it hasn't happened yet. However, with the rise of AI, a workload that most people, on most hardware, will simply never be able to run on their own device and still do anything else useful, that world may soon become a reality. This is the flipside of the Year of the Linux Desktop, nobody ever said it would be a freedom-respecting Linux Desktop that took over.

 

[The Mass Shooter Ron Soye]

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