Culture The programmer who created Python isn't interested in mentoring white guys - The Cuckening of tech continues

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Guido van Rossum is one of the world’s most influential programmers. Van Rossum is the author of the general-purpose programming language Python, which he started working on in 1989, and is now among the most popular languages in use. According to a survey of users on Stack Overflow, a popular question-and-answer site for programmers, Python is the fastest-growing major programming language, and the most used after JavaScript. Python is free and open source, meaning anybody can use the language and modify it to suit their specific needs.
In addition to creating the language, van Rossum has overseen its development. Programming languages evolve over time, with changes made to add features and fix bugs. Modifications to the official version, generally suggested by active users of the language, go through a complex approval process managed by a founder or core development team. Van Rossum served as the “benevolent dictator for life” of Python’s development until last year, when he stepped down from the post.

As Python grew in popularity, van Rossum noticed a problem.
In a rare interview with the programmer in October last year, which was recently published on YouTube, he was asked about the lack of diversity among the people working on open-source programming languages. He noted that it was an issue, and said that those who ignore it, because open-source projects are available for anyone to contribute, are not seeing the full picture.
“It’s not just joining a project that’s the problem, it’s staying in the project, which means you have to feel comfortable exchanging emails and code reviews… with people that you don’t know personally but you communicate frequently with online,” he said. Van Rossum thinks that these exchanges can be difficult for women because of unconscious bias and male-driven cultural norms within open-source communities.
“It’s not just about writing the code, but you have stand up for your code and defend your code, and there is a certain male attitude that is endemic in many projects where a woman would just not feel comfortable claiming that she is right,” he explained. “A guy who knows less than that woman might honestly believe [he is right], so they present a much more confident image.” In his experience, van Rossum sees incompetent men’s ideas gaining acceptance more often than merited because they are more forceful in how they present them.
Van Rossum believes that the different attitudes of women and men in programming communities is due to wider societal problems that we need to fix from the bottom up. “I’ve always felt that feminism was right and we need to change the whole society,” he said. In the meantime, he feels a responsibility to act in the places he has influence, like in the Python community.
He believes the key to making open-source communities more inclusive is establishing (and enforcing) codes of conduct and mentoring. Van Rossum says that he now mentors women and underrepresented minority programmers. “But white guys can forget it,” he said. “They are not the ones who need it most.” (In typical programmer speak, he calls mentoring a “completely distributed, democratic approach.”)
Rather, he thinks it’s important that men are educated about their biases. “[There are] some guys who are super defensive when you tell about this shit, but the majority of guys just don’t know any better,” he said. “The first time I heard the term unconscious bias was maybe five years ago and it was an eye opener.” It’s changed him, and he thinks it could change others.
You can watch the interview, with the writer Swapnil Bhartiya of the coding-focused website TFiR, below. The discussion about diversity occurs around the 23-minute mark:

 

[cecograph]

If only programming code wasn't subjective, but an objective test-able thing.

Yes. If only....

Programming is the fluffiest thing you can do in STEM, and is almost never close to the objectivity of engineering. It's why you can recruit programmers who have next to no mathematical training (I think Null said he was fresh out of high-school).

It can't hope to be objective because there are almost never any formal specs, and it's rarely testable because there often aren't enough tests.

This is why most software is buggy and crashes all the fucking time.

What programmers do instead is argue over style and surface, because there's not much else to argue about. Even in this thread, the complaints about Python are over minutiae such as how it uses whitespace.

The software industry has always been a shit show.

 

[Medicated]

Yes. If only....

Programming is the fluffiest thing you can do in STEM, and is almost never close to the objectivity of engineering. It's why you can recruit programmers who have next to no mathematical training (I think Null said he was fresh out of high-school).

It can't hope to be objective because there are almost never any formal specs, and it's rarely testable because there often aren't enough tests.

This is why most software is buggy and crashes all the fucking time.

What programmers do instead is argue over style and surface, because there's not much else to argue about. Even in this thread, the complaints about Python are over minutiae such as how it uses whitespace.

The software industry has always been a shit show.

I thought in programming there was only 4 things really.

Does it do what it's supposed to?
Are there any bugs?
Is the code efficient?
Is the code noted for 3rd party reference. (Since you may move on and someone else might have to do your work)

If people are talking about formatting then it's probably time to just shut the entire University system down.

 

[Sprig of Parsley]

The government/legal system is what is encouraging this behavior! Instead of "sorting this mess out" they will continue to double down as time progresses.

The more fun question is why would governments do such a thing? Well... I call it a fun question but the answers get really depressing.

1. Fantastic way to keep the plebs at each other's throats and not at yours.
2. Also fantastic way to ensure governmental overreach accelerates, with all that entails.
3. Great for making people vote like blithering tribal idiots and thoroughly reinforcing the gameable two-party system.
4. There are probably more than a few true believers sitting in government jobs or appointments and this constitutes a matter of personal ideological victory for them, which they put ABOVE everything else including their own country.
5. Issues-voting is, was and always will be the best way to distract the average pleb from exceptional economic policies being rammed through or more sinister shit getting through the hallowed halls of Congress. People get fucking stupid over muh pay gaps and muh LGBT and pols just laugh as they draft up the next PATRIOT Act while no one's watching.

 

[SuperSheep]

Python sees plenty of use in robotics and gaming as a scripting layer, calling down to C for the speedy parts and low-level embedded stuff. Though, for gaming, Lua has always been far more popular (and Lua is a genuinely beautiful programming language).

Python is more than good enough for web backends (Facebook still mostly runs on PHP, for fuck sakes). If you go looking for a job as a web developer, you'll do well enough knowing Python. Though you better learn Javascript too. If you're going into data science, Python will be fine.

Python also gets used a lot in CGI, like Maya, Houdini, Blender, 3DS Max.

 

[Stock Image Photographer]

I thought in programming there was only 4 things really.

Does it do what it's supposed to?
Are there any bugs?
Is the code efficient?
Is the code noted for 3rd party reference. (Since you may move on and someone else might have to do your work)

If people are talking about formatting then it's probably time to just shut the entire University system down.

The first three points are mainly related to the function of the code, which is very important, but there's a lot more that goes into making the code readable than adding comments for future maintainers. Having a consistent style and format is important because it makes your code more readable, and a part of that is formatting. Python enforces the use of indentation for code blocks by making whitespace syntactically significant, so if you're writing a new method you have to indent all the logic in that method 4 spaces in from the method declaration. This makes Python extremely annoying to write outside of an IDE or a text editor with a Python plugin, because I don't want to waste my time hitting the spacebar exactly 12 times from a triple-indented block of code for every single line in that block. By contrast, OCaml uses parentheses to denote new blocks of code, and any indentation added by the programmer is done voluntarily because they think it will make the code more readable.

 

[byuu]

because I don't want to waste my time hitting the spacebar exactly 12 times from a triple-indented block of code for every single line in that block.

Every editor in the world that's not fucking notepad allows you to set it to insert spaces when hitting tab.
Or you could just use plain tabs.

 

[Irrelevant]

Every editor in the world that's not fucking notepad allows you to set it to insert spaces when hitting tab.
Or you could just use plain tabs.

I can't think of many "proper" editors that actually default to tabs. The problem is there's no single definition of what a "tab" is and so it's up to the OS/shell/printer to decide what to render. Thus everyone has been mapping the tab key to 2/4/8 spaces for the last 40 years.

As you said, Python doesn't actually care if the indentation is 4 spaces, 1 space, or actual tabs (though mixing is a bad idea). Also indentation doesn't matter inside some places like brackets so you can use them for code that really needs different layout for readability.

However a constant annoyance is when a project sticks strictly to PEP8 and the required indentation makes you bang into the 80char limit.

 

[MarvinTheParanoidAndroid]

the required indentation makes you bang into the 80char limit.

Why do programming languages have character limits anyway?

 

[Irrelevant]

Why do programming languages have character limits anyway?

It's not a limit in the language, it's a style guide so all code fits in a terminal window without horizontal scrolling or wrapping. It reduces the chances of someone missing the end of a line which is also an argument for using predictable spaces instead of tabs which could be wider on some systems.

The 80 columns standard for terminals apparently goes back to IBM punch cards.

 

[Corbin Dallas Multipass]

I laughed my ass off when serious discussion started about including women in the draft. Holy fucking shit, I've never seen feminists sprint away from the "women are just as good as men at everything!" myth faster than the moment when there was a chance they'd have to put their asses on the line.

What are you talking talking about? I don't recall any push back by feminists for women being included in the draft. Not that they fought hard for it, but still I think they've been consistent on equality in military matters.

Also let's remember nobody has been drafted in the US for a long time.

Women aren't a giant conforming block of people, and the loudest voices for "women's rights" are no more representative of the average woman than the loudest voices for "men's rights" are representative of men. Women aren't the embodiment of all your frustrations with society, the evil bloodsucking cheating wife who scolds her husband about leaving the toilet seat up, then divorces him, taking his home, money, and children.

That person certainly exists, but again isn't representative or even liked. Cool your crazy jets guys...

 

[Sprig of Parsley]

What are you talking talking about? I don't recall any push back by feminists for women being included in the draft. Not that they fought hard for it, but still I think they've been consistent on equality in military matters.

Also let's remember nobody has been drafted in the US for a long time.

Women aren't a giant conforming block of people, and the loudest voices for "women's rights" are no more representative of the average woman than the loudest voices for "men's rights" are representative of men. Women aren't the embodiment of all your frustrations with society, the evil bloodsucking cheating wife who scolds her husband about leaving the toilet seat up, then divorces him, taking his home, money, and children.

That person certainly exists, but again isn't representative or even liked. Cool your crazy jets guys...

Oh cool then we should be able to get VAWA struck from the books, Selective Service either abolished or applied equally, Duluth Model expunged... oh, what's that? Shut up and take it like a man? Well gosh, if you say so.

 

[Sīn the Moon Daddy]

The draft is an exceptional idea anyway. It's a great way to swell your ranks with fuckups and malingerers since nobody wants to be there. Draftees, generally speaking, get butchered by professional soldiers.

 

[Tealeaf]

Why do programming languages have character limits anyway?

Multi-line text is much easier to read if the column is narrow. As most programming code takes multiple lines, it should keep the column width narrow. Narrower is better, but you also need to fit reasonably descriptive variable names and indentation. Code style guides will recommend anything from 77 character columns up to around 140.

This is not just a code thing. Almost every text laid out for reading uses narrow columns, particularly in books, magazines and newspapers. Most text-heavy Internet sites will also keep text columns narrow, even if you stretch your browser window reaaallly wide.

 

[Medicated]

I can't think of many "proper" editors that actually default to tabs. The problem is there's no single definition of what a "tab" is and so it's up to the OS/shell/printer to decide what to render. Thus everyone has been mapping the tab key to 2/4/8 spaces for the last 40 years.

Oh you just reminded me of that. I dunno how many times I've used different programs and such and pressed tab and the damn cursor shoots halfway across the screen, and I'm like, what the fuck. Fucking tab.

 

[kcbbq]

It's not a limit in the language, it's a style guide so all code fits in a terminal window without horizontal scrolling or wrapping. It reduces the chances of someone missing the end of a line which is also an argument for using predictable spaces instead of tabs which could be wider on some systems.

The 80 columns standard for terminals apparently goes back to IBM punch cards.

It used to be a hard limit. I, for example, was stuck taking FORTRAN 77 just to be able to take classes on c. I still occasionally have to pull out that textbook and it makes me sad. You spent as much time checking to make sure things were in the right columns reserved for different things as you did coding, maybe more, so everything would be in the right part of a punch card despite no one using a punch card in at least a decade unless it was for nostalgia.

Why they were still gatekeeping useful languages behind that crap into the 1990s blows my mind. I think they just didn't want to be bothered to install a FORTRAN 90 compiler.

Old timey computer programmers were all fucked in the head. I heard a great story from a guy who inherited some code that ran on a machine that used drum memory. It was just nonsensical until you realized that the original guy optimized it to the point where bits were pretty much exactly where the head would be ready to read it in, so the binary was not in order. He didn't document this. You had to write down the binary and skip however many values to get the next one, over and over. They stuck with it because it was very fast for the time. Still in awe that the guy who got stuck with it figured it out.

 

[moocow]

What are you talking talking about? I don't recall any push back by feminists for women being included in the draft. Not that they fought hard for it, but still I think they've been consistent on equality in military matters.

Also let's remember nobody has been drafted in the US for a long time.

Women aren't a giant conforming block of people, and the loudest voices for "women's rights" are no more representative of the average woman than the loudest voices for "men's rights" are representative of men. Women aren't the embodiment of all your frustrations with society, the evil bloodsucking cheating wife who scolds her husband about leaving the toilet seat up, then divorces him, taking his home, money, and children.

That person certainly exists, but again isn't representative or even liked. Cool your crazy jets guys...

Oh, there have been plenty of objections to adding women to the draft (those are all different links, btw).

They all boil down to two arguments: "women shouldn't have to because reasons (but it's okay to draft men)" and "we should abolish the draft for everyone!"

In the first camp -- "women shouldn't be drafted (but it's okay to draft men)" -- the excuses they give for why women shouldn't have to put their pampered asses on the line range from "health and fitness standards in the military are sexist and misogynistic" to "women are pacifists and shouldn't be forced to commit violence." Regardless of the specific excuse they give, the word "equality" barely gets a nod before the mental gymnastics begin. "Equality's nice and all, but you boys can just keep the draft all to yourselves."

One of the feminist authors I linked to above at least earned my respect for having the balls to just come out and fucking say it: "if equality means [drafting my daughter], I want no part of it." That's the real kernel of the grumpiness in this thread (and among men enjoying the schadenfreude) -- equality is great for women up until it comes to the "responsibilities" part. Then it can go right to hell.

The second camp -- "abolish the draft!" -- is a nice sentiment and absolutely worth pursuing. It's just that the number of people in America who support abolishing the draft mysteriously doubled overnight once women became eligible for the draft. Where were all these abolitionist women when it was just men getting drafted? They largely didn't give a shit because it wasn't their asses on the line. Now that they are, suddenly they care. Funny, eh?

ETA:

I heard a great story from a guy who inherited some code that ran on a machine that used drum memory. It was just nonsensical until you realized that the original guy optimized it to the point where bits were pretty much exactly where the head would be ready to read it in, so the binary was not in order. He didn't document this. You had to write down the binary and skip however many values to get the next one, over and over. They stuck with it because it was very fast for the time. Still in awe that the guy who got stuck with it figured it out.

That's the Story of Mel. Guy was crazy smart.

 

[Tasty Tatty]

That sounds very... preachy. I wonder how long until he gets metoo'ed.

What are you talking talking about? I don't recall any push back by feminists for women being included in the draft. Not that they fought hard for it, but still I think they've been consistent on equality in military matters.

I do remember a couple of "important" voices being salty about it. "We shouldn't be fighting in a war made by men!" or something like that.

 

[turboNIG-3k]

If only programming code wasn't subjective, but an objective test-able thing.

That only really applies to performance of algorithms at solving specific problems at hand, and even then - are you concerned about time complexity? Or space complexity? etc.

 

[Medicated]

That only really applies to performance of algorithms at solving specific problems at hand, and even then - are you concerned about time complexity? Or space complexity? etc.

Is it a work thing? Companies don't have time for you to fully optimize and bugfix code because they just want the product out there? I mean back in the old days guys had to make programs with 32, 64, 256KB of memory to work with. You couldn't afford to fix things later or "patch it after release".

 

[MrTickles]

I thought in programming there was only 4 things really.

Does it do what it's supposed to?
Are there any bugs?
Is the code efficient?
Is the code noted for 3rd party reference. (Since you may move on and someone else might have to do your work)

If people are talking about formatting then it's probably time to just shut the entire University system down.

In an ideal universe. In reality, 1st two matter, the rest can be dodged/ignored long enough for contracted programmer(s) to get paid and haul ass before anybody else with some knowledge on the matter gets a look at the mostly undocumented fuckery of their frankstein's application. If it works and doesn't crash too often, it is going to meet 100% of project requirements 99% of the time.

Most career programmers are full time plagiarists and scammers. It's just how it is with highly iterative, task focused work.

Engineers fuck up...people die. Software engineers fuck up, you hire more software engineers to fix the issue.