Culture The term ‘LGBTI’ confuses desire, behaviour and identity – it’s time for a rethink - Gay sex is a social construct

The term ‘LGBTI’ confuses desire, behaviour and identity – it’s time for a rethink

The rise of sexually transmissible diseases made front-page news in The Age, which tried to make sense of the rise among “gay men” and “heterosexual people”.

This illustrates the increasingly common confusion between behaviour and identity. What is involved is sexual contact, or to use the expression common in the early days of the AIDS epidemic, “the exchange of bodily fluids”. Whether people involved have a particular identity, as the words used in the report suggest, is irrelevant.

Desire, behaviour and identity are distinct, and they do not always overlap. Someone who is celibate may also have strong sexual desires or even a particular sexual identity; someone may identify as heterosexual but have homosexual experiences; most people will have sexual desires that are not necessarily acted out in practice.

Freud knew this, even as he constructed elaborate explanations for how our sexual beings are created. Alfred Kinsey shocked Americans 60 years ago when he revealed the extent of homosexual behaviour among men who would have denied any homosexual identity.

Contemporary research – for example, the Australian Study of Health and Relationships – suggests that behaviour, desire and identity overlap in complex ways.

Yet contemporary usage, with its emphasis on identities, ignores these complexities. The term “LGBTI” combines sexuality (lesbian, gay, bisexual) with gender identity (trans) and gender characteristics (intersex).

At a recent conference, one speaker declared himself “a proud LGBTI person”. A moment’s reflection suggests this is very unlikely.

Being trans – that is, to question whether one’s biological characteristics determine one’s sense of gender – implies neither heterosexual nor homosexual desires. Indeed, if we accept that gender is fluid, it makes nonsense of a binary division between hetero- and homosexual. This may be why social conservatives feel so threatened by “gender ideology”.

Sexual and gender fluidity are common themes in most cultures, and novels, opera and film are rich in their exploration of this fluidity. As Patrick White wrote in his memoir Flaws in the Glass:

Ambivalence has given me insights into human nature, denied, I believe, to those who are unequivocally male or female.

The recent film Call Me By Your Name tells the story of two young men who have a brief relationship one summer in Italy. Neither identifies as “gay”, and the elder seems largely heterosexual in his subsequent life. Yet some critics complained at the absence of identity politics – one even complained that openly gay men had not played the leading roles – ignoring the basic premise that desire does not equal identity.

The use of the acronym “LGBTI”, sometimes with added letters to indicate “queer”, “asexuals” or “allies”, is a direct product of American identity politics, and one increasingly used in debates about human rights. But there is a far neater alternative language, which is the term “SOGI”: sexual orientation and gender identity, the preferred usage in international human rights discourses.

There are three good reasons to prefer this term.

First, it avoids the neat categorisation of people according to assumptions about fixed identities, allowing for the realities that how people experience sexuality and gender is often messy and changes over a lifetime.

It is also less linked to liberal Western notions of identity politics, and therefore less likely to be attacked as part of neo-imperial attempts to destroy traditional cultures. This week saw a film festival in Tunisia addressing “issues of gender identity and non-normative sexualities” – a deliberate choice of terminology in a deeply hostile environment.

But perhaps most important, everyone has some sense of their experience of sexuality and gender, and the term serves to remind us that we are not speaking of discrete minorities, rather of the complexities of human experience.

Yes, there are times when particular identities are important. Same-sex marriage was only an issue precisely because lesbian and gay relations lacked full legal and social acceptance without it. People who feel discordance between their bodies and their gender expression need recognition and protection from widespread discrimination.

But there is an equal danger in assuming that everyone will be comfortable with labels that define them through increasingly arcane acronyms. In his recent memoir, the British scholar Jonathan Dollimore wrote:

It’s one of the delusions of identity politics to think that our desire comfortably coexists with our identity, a belief which has more to do with consumerism than desire. I’ve come to feel that sexuality might at different times express different aspects of one’s self, a situation further complicated by the fact that the self changes.

The current Melbourne Midsumma Festival program refers to “LGBTQIA+” in an attempt to incorporate everyone with “diverse gender and sexuality”. But there is a risk of becoming so inclusive that the term loses all meaning. Adding letters to the acronym simply hides the complex interconnections of desire, behaviour and identity in everyday life.
 
>sources Freud and Kinsey to support argument

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The term ‘LGBTI’ confuses desire, behaviour and identity – it’s time for a rethink

The rise of sexually transmissible diseases made front-page news in The Age, which tried to make sense of the rise among “gay men” and “heterosexual people”.

This illustrates the increasingly common confusion between behaviour and identity. What is involved is sexual contact, or to use the expression common in the early days of the AIDS epidemic, “the exchange of bodily fluids”. Whether people involved have a particular identity, as the words used in the report suggest, is irrelevant.

Desire, behaviour and identity are distinct, and they do not always overlap. Someone who is celibate may also have strong sexual desires or even a particular sexual identity; someone may identify as heterosexual but have homosexual experiences; most people will have sexual desires that are not necessarily acted out in practice.

Freud knew this, even as he constructed elaborate explanations for how our sexual beings are created. Alfred Kinsey shocked Americans 60 years ago when he revealed the extent of homosexual behaviour among men who would have denied any homosexual identity.

Contemporary research – for example, the Australian Study of Health and Relationships – suggests that behaviour, desire and identity overlap in complex ways.

Yet contemporary usage, with its emphasis on identities, ignores these complexities. The term “LGBTI” combines sexuality (lesbian, gay, bisexual) with gender identity (trans) and gender characteristics (intersex).

At a recent conference, one speaker declared himself “a proud LGBTI person”. A moment’s reflection suggests this is very unlikely.

Being trans – that is, to question whether one’s biological characteristics determine one’s sense of gender – implies neither heterosexual nor homosexual desires. Indeed, if we accept that gender is fluid, it makes nonsense of a binary division between hetero- and homosexual. This may be why social conservatives feel so threatened by “gender ideology”.

Sexual and gender fluidity are common themes in most cultures, and novels, opera and film are rich in their exploration of this fluidity. As Patrick White wrote in his memoir Flaws in the Glass:

Ambivalence has given me insights into human nature, denied, I believe, to those who are unequivocally male or female.

The recent film Call Me By Your Name tells the story of two young men who have a brief relationship one summer in Italy. Neither identifies as “gay”, and the elder seems largely heterosexual in his subsequent life. Yet some critics complained at the absence of identity politics – one even complained that openly gay men had not played the leading roles – ignoring the basic premise that desire does not equal identity.

The use of the acronym “LGBTI”, sometimes with added letters to indicate “queer”, “asexuals” or “allies”, is a direct product of American identity politics, and one increasingly used in debates about human rights. But there is a far neater alternative language, which is the term “SOGI”: sexual orientation and gender identity, the preferred usage in international human rights discourses.

There are three good reasons to prefer this term.

First, it avoids the neat categorisation of people according to assumptions about fixed identities, allowing for the realities that how people experience sexuality and gender is often messy and changes over a lifetime.

It is also less linked to liberal Western notions of identity politics, and therefore less likely to be attacked as part of neo-imperial attempts to destroy traditional cultures. This week saw a film festival in Tunisia addressing “issues of gender identity and non-normative sexualities” – a deliberate choice of terminology in a deeply hostile environment.

But perhaps most important, everyone has some sense of their experience of sexuality and gender, and the term serves to remind us that we are not speaking of discrete minorities, rather of the complexities of human experience.

Yes, there are times when particular identities are important. Same-sex marriage was only an issue precisely because lesbian and gay relations lacked full legal and social acceptance without it. People who feel discordance between their bodies and their gender expression need recognition and protection from widespread discrimination.

But there is an equal danger in assuming that everyone will be comfortable with labels that define them through increasingly arcane acronyms. In his recent memoir, the British scholar Jonathan Dollimore wrote:

It’s one of the delusions of identity politics to think that our desire comfortably coexists with our identity, a belief which has more to do with consumerism than desire. I’ve come to feel that sexuality might at different times express different aspects of one’s self, a situation further complicated by the fact that the self changes.

The current Melbourne Midsumma Festival program refers to “LGBTQIA+” in an attempt to incorporate everyone with “diverse gender and sexuality”. But there is a risk of becoming so inclusive that the term loses all meaning. Adding letters to the acronym simply hides the complex interconnections of desire, behaviour and identity in everyday life.

That whole article touches upon questions I have about sexual identity that I've seen from people. Friends that have "come out of the closet" and in some ways they become a different person, their personality changes, despite minimal negative reaction, they suddenly fall in with a brand new group of friends and you and their family hear from them way less often.

I just never understood that someone can have nothing in their identity other than sucking cock or carpet munching. And from the point they come out it's like the one dimension of their personality. And revolving around that any "activist" subjects that are related to LGBTQ lifestyle. It's like it's all their is to them.

It's just that I've seen it first hand, and never really seen people talk about it before.
 
That whole article touches upon questions I have about sexual identity that I've seen from people. Friends that have "come out of the closet" and in some ways they become a different person, their personality changes, despite minimal negative reaction, they suddenly fall in with a brand new group of friends and you and their family hear from them way less often.

I just never understood that someone can have nothing in their identity other than sucking cock or carpet munching. And from the point they come out it's like the one dimension of their personality. And revolving around that any "activist" subjects that are related to LGBTQ lifestyle. It's like it's all their is to them.

It's just that I've seen it first hand, and never really seen people talk about it before.

They want the lifestyle and the escape of the new sexual identity. They throw themselves so headfirst into the concept of LGBT pride that they forget about the sad, closeted person they were before that they want to move past.

But as we've seen, you can be LGBT and be a normal person who isn't a completely flaming faggot, no matter how much Milo argues otherwise.
 
I'm going to go out on a limb and say "Intersex" (pseudo-hermaphrodites).
Pseudo-hermaphrodites, as in people clearly faking being Intetsexed to feel superior to their tranny bretheren..yes, there are trannies who claim to have Partial Androgen Insensitivity syndome while sporting a full papa Smurf beard like Jake and Danielle.


The LGBT started out as a nice concept, but once straight men, millrnials, and black troons got involved, it seems to have devolved into a permanent attention whoring nightmare. It should just only include lesbians and gays.

Anyway, everyone knows that since trannies got involved, the acronym LGBTI stands for, Let's Get Big Tits Immediately!
 
if we accept that gender is fluid

It's not.

The current Melbourne Midsumma Festival program refers to “LGBTQIA+” in an attempt to incorporate everyone with “diverse gender and sexuality”. But there is a risk of becoming so inclusive that the term loses all meaning. Adding letters to the acronym simply hides the complex interconnections of desire, behaviour and identity in everyday life.

This is a big part of the problem. adding so many letters to LGBT for a bunch of made up genders and sexualities that aren't under any sort of real oppression. Kids whining on Tumblr about how their parents refuse to address them as "xe/xir/pokemonself is not oppression. And no one gives a damn if you are asexual. Yet asexuals keep making a big deal about being asexual for attention. Stop whining about nothing. Everyone wants to get under the LGBT banner these days. So it is indeed starting to lose its real meaning as people make up more and more identities in an attention whoring attempt to get oppression points. Just look at all the hilarious pride flags on Tumblr. There was that whole thing over how the sapiosexual flag was horrible because being attracted to only smart people was so retardphobic. But it's ok to be autisexual even if your autism is self diagnosed.

Why is there a "Q" in there? Doesn't queer just mean gay? Or is it some term that now means any variety of 5,000 genders that didn't exist until recently but are totally legit you guys so stop being s genderspecialphobic.

The whole thing needs to drop the unnecessary letters and tell the genderspecials to GTFO.
 
Since the homophobia and biphobia (bis are troonphobic because they are only attracted to women and men) of the t gets worse and worse a shism between the lgb and tqa(insert more letters) will def. happen.

But it will take a while since the t has only just began to shame gay men for being attracted to penis. Hell they even start to target heterosexuals more often (remember the big brother incident and how the dude got attacked on social media because he rejected a troon).

Lesbians have to deal with it for a long time and they defend themselves but the gay community is new to this shit. Of course some gay men already know what's going on and there are a few older articles about "gay" trans "men" aka straight women on steroids whining because gay men don't like troon pussy.
 
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Since the homophobia and biphobia (bis are troonphobic because they are only attracted to women and men) of the t gets worse and worse a shism between the lgb and tqa(insert more letters) will def. happen.

But it will take a while since the t has only just began to shame gay men for being attracted to penis. Hell they even start to target heterosexuals more often (remember the big brother incident and how the dude got attacked on social media because he rejected a troon).

Lesbians have to deal with it for a long time and they defend themselves but the gay community is new to this shit. Of course some gay men already know what's going on and there are a few older articles about "gay" trans "men" aka straight women on steroids whining because gay men don't like troon pussy.
I remember a long time ago I saw some comic on LiveJournal where someone purporting to be a "gold-star gay" (never touched the pussy) was claiming they were dating trans men and still gay (and being critical of gays who do not want to date a troon man or who judge him for same). At the end of the comic it showed the trans man (who looked exactly like a short haired girl) pegging the dude and an array of fake phalli on the shelf near the bed. So I guess we know how gay men who date troon men work that shit out...
 
Why is there a "Q" in there? Doesn't queer just mean gay? Or is it some term that now means any variety of 5,000 genders that didn't exist until recently but are totally legit you guys so stop being s genderspecialphobic.

A bit of both, plus sometimes the Q means "questioning" not queer. Queer is sort of an umbrella term for the community (due to its status as a reclaimed slur, not everyone in the alphabet soup is comfortable being called it so it's somewhat controversial). While regular old gays, lesbians, bisexuals, aces, and transgender people may all use the term to self-identify, it is (predictably) very popular among the genderspecials with special snowflake made-up sexualities.
 
But as we've seen, you can be LGBT and be a normal person who isn't a completely flaming faggot, no matter how much Milo argues otherwise.

I think that's part of the problem, as soon as you start identifying as LGBT, you are already starting to distance yourself from the community as a whole. It's labelling yourself, defining yourself first by your sexuality. At some times, it seems like it's their only defining characteristic.

Think of the celebrities that 'come out of the closet' it has to be some big event, and then all of a sudden they are to some extent some sort of representative of the LGBT community. Apparently from then on their values are so different from everyone else they need their own special spokespeople? Like they are immigrants from another planet? What changed? You were banging guys before you came out, did your priorities or values suddenly change?

Is sexuality so huge it just swallows up peoples entire lives and identities, until theres nothing else left?
 
That whole article touches upon questions I have about sexual identity that I've seen from people. Friends that have "come out of the closet" and in some ways they become a different person, their personality changes, despite minimal negative reaction, they suddenly fall in with a brand new group of friends and you and their family hear from them way less often.

I just never understood that someone can have nothing in their identity other than sucking cock or carpet munching. And from the point they come out it's like the one dimension of their personality. And revolving around that any "activist" subjects that are related to LGBTQ lifestyle. It's like it's all their is to them.

It's just that I've seen it first hand, and never really seen people talk about it before.

It made a lot more sense when the world was much more hostile towards gay people and coming out meant that you were largely excluded from mainstream society. It makes less sense in a world were many "gay quarters" are full of businesses struggling to survive because this generation of young gay people can mostly just go hang out with their friends (gay and straight) at any mainstream venue.
 
Also, being pushy and obsessed about your sexual orientation is at least something your guaranteed to have the option of if you lack the resources/worldliness to get involved with actual social causes.

Whatever you may or may not have in life, money, fame, a car, a house, an education, a social following, one thing's for sure, there's something out there that gives you a stiffy just thinking about, so why not make your whole reason for existence celebrating that? It's Just the sad progressive version of the fat blue-collar loser living vicariously through the accomplishments of the Pittsburgh Steelers.
 
I think that's part of the problem, as soon as you start identifying as LGBT, you are already starting to distance yourself from the community as a whole. It's labelling yourself, defining yourself first by your sexuality. At some times, it seems like it's their only defining characteristic.

Think of the celebrities that 'come out of the closet' it has to be some big event, and then all of a sudden they are to some extent some sort of representative of the LGBT community. Apparently from then on their values are so different from everyone else they need their own special spokespeople? Like they are immigrants from another planet? What changed? You were banging guys before you came out, did your priorities or values suddenly change?

Is sexuality so huge it just swallows up peoples entire lives and identities, until theres nothing else left?

As much as it's become normalized over time, Hollywood is notoriously one dimensional when it comes to personal branding. Agents can't quite help but pigeonhole an actor when they come out; due to how the establishment LGBT actors coped in a less accepting time, there are very specific well trod career avenues.

This is why there are many actors who keep their sexuality private or otherwise explicitly separate from their personal brand (Neil Patrick Harris). As for trans actors, I've never seen a major actor come out as trans while they are acting, but I think we will see it at some point.
 
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This is why there are many actors who keep their sexuality private or otherwise explicitly separate from their personal brand (Neil Patrick Harris).

He's pretty openly gay, but correct. He's probably best known right now for playing a chronic womanizer who grabs women by the pussy.

NPH is the anti-Wil Wheaton.
 
He's pretty openly gay, but correct. He's probably best known right now for playing a chronic womanizer who grabs women by the pussy.

NPH is the anti-Wil Wheaton.

NPH seems to have diversified his career. He is known as a child star, then a sitcom actor, and most recently he is in the same echelon of "nerd celebrities" as Will Wheaton. The difference is that NPH has less incentive to sit around and put gators on blast because he has a husband and children.

He has a life beyond being a cuck.
 
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