Crime The Waco Siege: What Happened When the Feds Laid Siege to the Branch Davidian Compound

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The siege of the Branch Davidian compound in Waco, Texas, is an important event in American history because it directly led to one of the biggest terrorist attacks on American soil – the bombing of the Oklahoma City Federal Building. It’s not necessary to defend this act of terrorism to understand why the entire freedom movement of the time was so incensed by it. Indeed, it stood as a symbol of federal overreach and the corruption of the Clinton Administration.

It’s important to separate fact from fiction when it comes to the siege of Waco, just as it is important to do so with the siege of Ruby Ridge or the attack on the American consolate in Benghazi. With every event, it is important to stick to the facts and what can be extrapolated from them to make the strongest argument about what went wrong and why, and what could be done differently in the future.

Background: Who Are the Branch Davidians?
The Branch Davidians were a tiny offshoot of mainstream Seventh-Day Adventism. This stemmed from an earlier split between the main church and a group called Shepherd’s Rod, The Rod or the Davidians. It was effectively a reform movement within Adventism, albeit with some beliefs considered heretical by the mainstream church, none of which are important or relevant for this discussion.

The Branch Davidians were established some 20 years later, and a much more radical departure from Seventh-Day Adventism born from disappointment at the failure of earlier prophecies to materialize. There was some wrangling over the leadership of the group after the death of its founder, but Vernon Howell, better known to the world as David Koresh, ultimately won out over the wife and son of the founder.

Everyone liked Howell when he first showed up at the compound in 1981, including the head of the organization at the time, Lois Roden, with whom he had an affair, despite a more than 40-year age gap (he was in his late 20s, she was in her late 60s). He wanted to have a child with her, one that he believed would be the Chosen One of their religion.

Her son, George Roden, took over upon her death, which led to a power struggle between the two. Roden challenged Howell to raise the dead, going so far as to exhume a corpse for this purpose. Howell attempted to file charges against Roden over the grave robbing, but the police told him that more evidence was needed.

It was then that Howell and seven of his followers raided the compound armed with five .223 caliber semiautomatic rifles, two 22 caliber rifles, two 12-gauge shotguns, and almost 400 rounds of ammunition. They said they were trying to collect evidence of illegal activity on the compound, but forgot to bring a camera with them for that purpose. This was the definitive split where Howell won control of the Branch Davidian church at Mount Carmel. Those who did not follow him continued to use this name and argue that he was never rightfully in possession of it.

It was then that Vernon Howell became David Koresh, a name based on the historical King David and Cyrus the Great (“Koresh” being the Hebrew version of “Cyrus”).

By 1989, Koresh began marrying the members’ wives and daughters, some as young as 12, which was cited as a reason for the eventual raid. He claimed this came from an order from God. The men in the group other than Koresh were to remain celibate.
The Sinful Messiah
Koresh first began getting media attention from the Waco Tribune-Herald in February 1993. “The Sinful Messiah” was the name of a series of articles by Mark England and Darlene McCormick about Koresh and his followers. The articles mostly revolve around the child abuse claims and Koresh’s claim that he had over a dozen children, some of them with girls as young as 12.

Additionally, the group was suspected by local law enforcement of “stockpiling” illegal weapons. Local law enforcement alerted the ATF in May 1992, based on a call from a concerned UPS driver. By June 9th, the ATF had officially opened an investigation into the group.

This is perhaps the time to begin talking about some of the misconceptions or smears about the Branch Davidians. We are agnostic as to whether or not the group was a “cult,” as this can be defined differently by different people. However, the notion that Koresh kept his people in line with either mesmerism or fear does not square up with reports to Congress and elsewhere from survivors of the group. What’s more, rather than the dregs of Waco, many in the group were educated, most were religiously serious, and the group eschewed drugs and junk food.

Contrary to popular belief, Koresh did not claim to be the Second Coming of Christ, but rather to be a new messiah for a new age. The term “sinful messiah” was in fact one of Koresh’s own coinage, meaning that he was a messiah like Christ but, unlike Christ, had a sinful nature.

The allegations of child abuse that prompted the final siege on Mount Carmel is even highly in dispute. Most of the allegations against Koresh come from either disgruntled former members or those involved in child custody battles. The church was investigated by state authorities but not prosecuted, because no solid evidence was ever found. That Koresh married a 14-year-old girl is true, but this would have been totally legal with parental consent at the time – so what were state authorities supposed to do?

Assuming that the allegations of child sexual abuse were true – and we consider them to be extremely dubious – what was the ATF or the FBI doing there? And how does opening fire, throwing hand grenades, poison gassing and burning alive children serve to protect them? These are the important questions which stand as a stunning indictment of federal law enforcement, even if one accepts that child abuse was taking place within the compound.

As with Ruby Ridge, the allegations of the federal government and their toadies in the corporate media are distortions (“Koresh claims to be Christ”), dubious (“Koresh is abusing children”) and, more to the point, irrelevant (“The Branch Davidians were cooking meth”). The FBI and ATF were on the scene in Waco for one reason and one reason alone: To serve a search warrant to determine whether or not the Branch Davidians were making automatic weapons.
The Raid of Waco
The actual events of the raid can be difficult to tease out. Each side disagrees as to what the sequence of events were.

What we know is that, based on an affidavit filed by Davy Aguilera, the ATF obtained a search warrant. This was based on the testimony of a postal agent about what he considered to be suspicious deliveries to Mt. Carmel. However, none of the deliveries were in and of themselves illegal, and included items such as 45 AR-15 upper receivers, and five M-16 upper receivers.

The search warrant was mostly based on the number of weapons possessed by the Davidians. But in the United States of America, we have the right to own as many weapons as we can afford. What’s more, the notion that the Davidians were “stockpiling” weapons is a red herring: They were selling weapons (legally) in addition to buying them, so “inventory” might be the more accurate term for what they had at Mt. Carmel.

According to Dick J. Reavis, author of The Ashes of Waco:
“One of the prophecies that has been around Mt. Carmel since 1934 called for an ultimate confrontation between God's people, or those at Mr. Carmel, and the forces of an armed apostate power called Babylon . . . Perhaps with that in mind, in 1991, the Davidians began studying armaments and buying and selling guns. He (Koresh) pretty quickly found out there is a lot of money to be made at gun shows and he and other people started going to gun shows. And they bought and sold. They bought items that weren't guns, and they bought items that were guns. We now say, or the press now says, most people say, they stockpiled weapons. All gun dealers stockpile weapons. We call those stockpiles an inventory. There was an inventory of weapons at Mt. Carmel. A number of guys were involved in the gun shows, just as a number were involved in souping up and restoring cars, and just as a number were involved in playing in the band. There were circles or knots or subsets of people who had hobby interests that were only indirectly related to theology, and guns were one of those interests.”
The ATF’s raid, codenamed “Showtime,” was moved up one day in response to a local newspaper’s article on the Davidians. The local sheriff was not aware of the raid, but the Davidians knew it was coming. The ATF chose to raid the property rather than pick up Koresh while he was in town. An ATF agent who had infiltrated the group reported that they knew of the raid and that his cover was blown. When asked what they were doing when he left the property on the day of the raid, he said that the Davidians were praying.

There was another factor influencing the ATF’s decision to raid the Davidians when they did: Money. According to Henry Ruth, one of three independent reviewers of the Treasury Department's report on Waco:
“With appropriations hearings a week away, a large successful raid for the ATF would've proposed major positive headlines for the agency. It would've helped counter the narrative of the ATF as a rogue agency. And it would've spread fear about radical fringe groups which would put pressure on Congress to increase its budget. Part of their motivation was to use the siege at Waco as a publicity stunt.”
There is much discussion and debate about who fired first, however, there is ample evidence that it was the ATF when they went to shoot the Davidians’ dogs in their kennels on the way to surrounding the compound. What’s more, the ATF showed up in a cattle trailer protected by a tarp, wearing no body armor. They were not dressed for an armed confrontation with apocalyptic religious extremists.

A ceasefire was negotiated by local authorities. The sheriff claims that the ATF only withdrew once they were out of ammunition. What this means is that if the Branch Davidians were the dangerous extremists they were portrayed as, they could have easily shot down every ATF agent either then or when they went out to recover their dead. They did not; the Davidians honored the ceasefire.
“They could've killed every ATF agent out there the day of the raid, had they kept shooting. But when they said they would leave their property, they quit shooting. They were highly protective of their property.”
Jack Harwell, Sheriff, McLennan County
And so began the 51-day standoff in Waco, Texas.
The Waco Standoff
The standoff is frequently thought of as a benign and inert non-confrontation. However, this is untrue. While it’s true that no shots were fired, there was a virtual constant low-level assault on the compound in the form of noise (rabbits being slaughtered, jet planes, pop music and other loud noises), threatening tank movements and poison gas, and flash bang grenades. Federal agents would frequently give the middle finger to or “moon” the people inside Mt. Carmel.

The tanks were used to crush the outer perimeter, out buildings, private vehicles belonging to the Branch Davidians, and were repeatedly rolled over the grave of Branch Davidian Peter Gent, despite protests from both Branch Davidians and federal negotiators.

While none of this is acceptable, two of these activities bear special examination: the gas and flash bang grenades.

The “tear gas” used against the compound was military grade, a type that can turn toxic very easily. The federal agents knew there were children and even infants in the house, children too small for any gas mask to cover. They shot the grenades in anyway, effectively considering the suffering of the children inside as acceptable collateral damage. Further, flash bang grenades are deadly and certainly violated the spirit, if not the letter, of the ceasefire.

Koresh became concerned with the safety of the group due to increasingly aggressive tactics. All told, 11 people left the Davidian house, all of whom were arrested as material witnesses, with one indicted for conspiracy to commit murder. Children inside were increasingly unwilling to leave Koresh’s side, especially once they learned that the children who had previously left had been separated from their mothers and other women in the group who had been caring for them.

Communication predictably began to break down. The FBI considered using snipers to take out Koresh and other leaders of the movement, and feared a mass suicide. However, Koresh denied such a thing was imminient and those leaving the compound had seen no plans in place for a mass suicide.
How the Media Portrayed the Standoff
Koresh and the Davidians watched what the ATF and other federal agents were saying publicly about the initial raid during their 51-day standoff. The public narrative didn’t line up with what the Davidians had experienced, making negotiations even more difficult:
Jim Cavanaugh, ATF negotiator: Well, I think we need to set the record straight, and that is that there was no guns on those helicopters (used in the initial raid). There was National Guard officers on those helicopters . . .
Koresh: Now Jim, you're a d*mn liar. Now let's get real.
Cavanaugh: David, I . . .
Koresh: No! You listen to me! You're sittin' there and tellin' me that there were no guns on that helicopter!?
Cavanaugh: I said they didn't shoot. There's no guns on . . .
Koresh: You are a d*mn liar!
Cavanaugh: Well, you're wrong, David.
Koresh: You are a liar!
Cavanaugh: OK. Well, just calm down . . .
Koresh: No! Let me tell you something. That might be what you want the media to believe, but there's other people that saw too! Now, tell me Jim again. You're honestly going to say those helicopters didn't fire on any of us?
Cavanaugh: What I'm sayin' is . . . now I listened to you, now you listen to me, OK?
Koresh: I'm listening.
Cavanaugh: What I'm sayin' is that those helicopters didn't have mounted guns. OK? I'm not disputing the fact that there might have been fire from the helicopters. If you say there was fire from the helicopters and you were there that's OK with me. What I'm tellin' you is there was no mounted guns, ya know, outside mounted guns on those helicopters.
Koresh: I agree with you on that.
Cavanaugh: Alright. Now, that's the only thing I'm sayin'. Now, the agents on the helicopters had guns.
Koresh: I agree with you on that!
Cavanaugh: You understand what I'm sayin'?
Koresh: I agree with you.
Cavanaugh: OK, OK. So see, we're not even in dispute and Steven's getting all worked up over it.
Koresh: Well, no. What the dispute was over, I believe Jim, is that you said they didn't fire on us from the helicopters.
Cavanaugh: Well, what I mean is a mounted gun . . . like a, you know, like a mounted machine gun.
Koresh: Yeah. But like that's beside the point. What they did have was machine guns.
This distrust by the Davidians of the ATF and their lead negotiator, Jim Cavanaugh, helped exacerbate the standoff.
The Final Siege of Mount Carmel
The newly minted U.S. Attorney General Janet Reno was unhappy with the progress being made at Waco, and invoked (what else) the abuse of children in her pitch for a resolution to the conflict. For his part, President Clinton, who had dealt with a similar situation as Governor of Arkansas in 1985 – with The Covenant, The Sword, and The Arm of the Lord – initially urged waiting out the group. Reno, however, cited antsy agents and budgetary concerns. Ultimately, Clinton told her to do whatever she thought was best.

The FBI Hostage Rescue Team – derisively nicknamed the “Hostage Roasting Team” and which denied any evidence of child abuse – came armed with 50 caliber rifles and punched holes in the walls of the building with explosives so they could pump CS poision gas into a building with small children and infants inside. The plan was to announce to the group that there was no plan to take the house by force while slowly pumping greater amounts of CS gas inside to increase pressure on them to leave.

The fires began around noon on the final day of the standoff. The FBI maintains that they were started deliberately by the Davidians, with some survivors claiming that the FBI started the fires either intentionally or accidentally. Footage of the Davidians talking about gasoline seem to refer to them making Molotov cocktails to fight the FBI with.

Nine people left the building during the fire. The remaining people inside all died either from the fire, smoke inhalation, were buried alive by rubble or were shot. Some showed signs of death by cyanide poisoning, which would likely have been a result of the burning CS gas. All told, there were 76 deaths.

FBI claims in the 51 days during the standoff they never fired a single shot. Then 27 of the people in the compound died of bullet wounds. Then those were self-inflicted or inflicted by other members inside the compound. Federal investigators considered suicide as a possible form of gunshot death for the Davidians. It did not consider forced execution to be a likely cause of death.

An exchange between Sen. Chuck Schumer and Assistant Attorney General Edward Dennis in the Clinton Administration in the subsequent congressional investigation summed it up best:
Charles E. Schumer, U.S. Congressman, New York (D): We've heard that in the 51 days the FBI was involved, they did not fire a single shot . . . First, That would mean quite certainly that 27 of the people who died in the compound, I think the autopsy report showed 27, I may be off by one or two, who died of bullet wounds, those were self-inflicted or inflicted by other members within the compound . . .
Edward Dennis, Former Assistant Attorney General, Clinton Administration: I think that's a key issue. The fact that Koresh was capable of setting the fire, of killing his own followers, that parents were capable of killing children, or adults were capable of killing children, really says more about the mentality of the individual that you were dealing with and the difficulty in trying to figure out the best way to talk he and his followers out of that compound.
After the Raid
Today the only building on the site is a small chapel erected years after the raid. The building itself was razed. The incoming head of the ATF, John Magaw, was critical of the raid and made the Treasury Department’s Blue Book report on the matter required reading for incoming agents.

Nine Branch Davidians received sentences of up to 40 years for counts including voluntary manslaughter and weapons charges. Several other Davidians, including foreign nationals, were imprisoned indefinitely as material witnesses. Derek Lovelock, a British national, was held in McLennan County Jail for seven months, with the bulk of this time in solitary confinement. Livingstone Fagan claims to have been repeatedly beaten by guards at Leavenworth and other places. It was here that Fagan claims he was sprayed with cold water by a high-pressure hose before the guards put an industrial fan outside of his cell. Guards strip searched him every time he left his cell, so he began refusing exercise.

Over 100 civil suits were brought against the government by Branch Davidians and their surviving families. Most of these were dismissed before ever coming before a jury. Where cases were brought to court, the Davidians were ruled against. A jury in San Antonio, however, acquitted Branch Davidians in the killing of four ATF agents on grounds of self defense.

Perhaps the most important piece of evidence that the ATF fired first was lost. Houston attorney Dick DeGuerin testified under oath that the right-hand entry door to the building had only incoming bullet holes in it. A Texas state trooper testified that he saw two men load what looked like that door into a Uhaul. The Branch Davidians argued at trial that the condition of the left-hand door (i.e., intact) means that the right-hand door was not destroyed in the fire, but “lost” on purpose. There seems to be no better explanation considering how buttoned down the crime scene was and the stakes involved in shielding the ATF and other federal agents from investigation.

The door was not the only evidence that was “lost.” The ATF’s footage of the original raid was also mysteriously (and miraculously, depending on what side you’re on) somehow lost. All this, despite congressional demands to produce both:
“I will just make one comment to the witnesses relative to the video and the front door. We have consistently asked as a committee to get a copy of the videotape which they now say is blank. We have asked for the door, and the door is missing.”
William H. Zeliff, Jr., U.S. Congressman, New Hampshire (R)
What the Waco Siege Tells Us About the Federal Government
The Waco siege does not provide any new or stunning insight about the federal government or how it operates. It does, however, confirm something that we know all too well: That when the federal government makes mistakes, its tendency is not to address and remedy those mistakes, but to double down, come back harder, and take every measure they can to conceal their wrongdoing.

However, there is another more sinister strand to this story: Did the FBI kill men, women and children because of budgetary concerns?

There is some evidence to suggest that they did. Federal law prevents the military from enforcing federal law. What’s more, any training that law enforcement agencies receive from the military must be paid out of their own budgets – unless the training is for enforcing “drug laws.” Late Congressman Steven Schiff of New Mexico testified that, ”In order for the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms to have obtained the military assistance they did receive, not because of the Posse Comitatus Act, but because of existing military policy, they misrepresented to the military that this was an anti-drug raid when it was never an anti-drug raid.”

In David Hardy’s “This is Not an Assault,” he stresses, “Once the military trainers pointed out that the ATF would have to pay, the ATF suddenly claimed that the Davidians – who in fact eschewed hard liquor, tobacco, cow’s milk and junk food – were a ‘dangerous extremist organization’ believed to be producing methamphetamine.”

There is no evidence that the Branch Davidians were in any way involved in drug production. There is, however, ample evidence to suggest that the federal government callously ignored the lives and safety of those inside to grandstand before cameras and justify bigger budgets.
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The miniseries, 'Waco', is a relatively faithful depiction of the events leading up to the FBI assault on the Waco church and their killing of seventeen little children and 59 adults, including two pregnant women.

An interview with David Thibodeau, who was lucky to survive fire and FBI gunfire after being turned back from the bunker the women and children had been sheltering in- one of the FBI's first targets for destruction- is available here, and he has given many other interviews and talks about the FBI's massacre many times over the years, as have some of the other surviving victims.
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Tanks used to create openings in the buildings to spread the flames
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FBI agents pose for trophy photos as the children burn. Agents took further celebratory photos posing in the rubble after their fire had done its work.
 
We're not living in the Chinese Century. What Corona-chan has revealed to the world is that China is the ultimate paper tiger. We've known for at least a decade that Chinese numbers are grossly inflated, and China has its own problems with internal issues such as the Uigyhurs, Hong Kong, etc and the extremely expansionistic surveillance state. The CCP outright fakes their numbers, and its all protected under their "saving face" culture. China has literal ghost cities and the Belt and Road initiative is probably going to end badly in Africa, due to (probably) continued instability in sub Saharan Africa and remnant hatred of the Chinese from being used as a middleman merchant minority by the British and the French.

The late 60s DOD and JCS, JUST AS NOW, are top-heavy organizations that can't win a war if they tried.
We're just not going to agree. You're going to go off your gut feeling and the assumption every government apparatus is totally incompetent and I'm going to go off of what I know. Sorry. This conversation is just pointless.
 
This is perhaps the time to begin talking about some of the misconceptions or smears about the Branch Davidians. We are agnostic as to whether or not the group was a “cult,” as this can be defined differently by different people. However, the notion that Koresh kept his people in line with either mesmerism or fear does not square up with reports to Congress and elsewhere from survivors of the group. What’s more, rather than the dregs of Waco, many in the group were educated, most were religiously serious, and the group eschewed drugs and junk food.
This person doesn't know how cults work.
 
I can't verify it, and it may be total bullshit, but I've heard rumors that Hillary was a big factor in what happened. She allegedly was pressuring Bill to make an example of the Branch Davidians to scare any other groups away from arming and preparing themselves like the Davidians were. Like I said, it could be total bullshit, but I honestly wouldn't put it past Hillary to use/abuse her husband's authority like that.
Mentioned in this documentary around the 1hr 35 minute mark.
 
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America didn't invade Vietnam. It was a police action on behalf of a friendly government, the RVN.
Now you're just arguing semantics. The American troops were definitely seen as foreign invaders by the Vietcong - that an unpopular and unstable government wanted their support doesn't really change that. If the Dems would invite Chinese troops to help "police" those Republicans dissidents, would you not call them invaders?

But the point is they got involved. Any small arms failed to act as a deterrent.
Also the AKs and guerilla attacks that claimed an absurd number of casualties directly led to the American withdrawal from Vietnam.
They were nothing against the Vietnamese losses and made possible by a vast support in the populace and much foreign aid.
Again, I don't see how that's comparable to an isolated entrenched group of weirdos with a stockpile of guns.

If the American government were as insanely evil as the militia types who rant against the ZOG believe (and if we ignore the Sovjets), they could have just glassed everything outside Saigon. A (purely military) victory was possible for America.
In the end America didn't pull out because they feared the guns of a few militia groups, they pulled out because they couldn't get the Vietnamese people to support them.

This is my larger argument. The federal government could not win a war against the majority of the populace no matter how well or poorly armed. Unless they were so insanely tyrannical that they would not shy away from genocide, where small arms would be little help.
 
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Now you're just arguing semantics. The American troops were definitely seen as foreign invaders by the Vietcong - that an unpopular and unstable government wanted their support doesn't really change that. If the Dems would invite Chinese troops to help "police" those Republicans dissidents, would you not call them invaders?

But the point is they got involved. Any small arms failed to act as a deterrent.

They were nothing against the Vietnamese losses and made possible by a vast support in the populace and much foreign aid.
Again, I don't see how that's comparable to an isolated entrenched group of weirdos with a stockpile of guns.

If the American government were as insanely evil as the militia types who rant against the ZOG believe (and if we ignore the Sovjets), they could have just glassed everything outside Saigon. A (purely military) victory was possible for America.
In the end America didn't pull out because they feared the guns of a few militia groups, they pulled out because they couldn't get the Vietnamese people to support them.

This is my larger argument. The federal government could not win a war against the majority of the populace no matter how well or poorly armed. Unless they were so insanely tyrannical that they would not shy away from genocide, where small arms would be little help.
We're just going to have to disagree. In your corner you can huff your farts and in mine I'll rely on facts and evidence.
 
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The whole thing was because the Clintons and Janet Reno wanted to make an example of what they saw as "right-wing extremists and civilian militias". They didn't like the idea of a large group of people who were armed and organized, because if more people get armed and organized it takes away the control the government can exert over them. It had nothing to do with child abuse, Koresh marrying minors, drugs, or anything else. Those are just excuses to cover for the real motivations for the raid. Ruby Ridge was the same story. In fact, Randy Weaver was set up by an undercover agent. He was pressured by the undercover agent for a long time to cut down a shotgun to an illegal length. Lon Horiuchi, the FBI HRT sniper who shot Weaver's wife while holding their baby, was also present at Waco.

All those people, including innocent women and children, slaughtered because the ATF wanted funding and because the Clintons and Reno hated that they exercised their right to own firearms. And their legacy has been to be slandered/libeled and lied about. The whole reason we have the Second Amendment is to protect ourselves from a government drunk on power like this.
Generally sound, but it should be noted that the assault on Ruby Ridge and the murder of Randy Weaver's wife and son happened under Bush 41. The US secret police didn't change from Bush 41 to Clinton, or from Clinton until today.
I always found it weird that the lesson Americans took from Ruby Ridge and Waco is that you need guns to defend yourself from the government. Even though guns failed to protect them against the feds and were what caused the situation to escalate in the first place.
The Davidians could have broken out on the first day if they'd been doing anything but defending themselves. They worked with the local police to try and get the secret police to stop trying to murder them, and they even let them retreat when they did- which solely occurred because they'd run out of ammo.

You would be correct insofar as that the idea of 'defending yourself from a tyrannical government' with guns is a broken one, if your strategy is to hopefully get warning of a no-knock raid on your own house in advance and then somehow 'win' the shootout. Many of the Davidians who escaped government bullets and fire were sentenced to and served 15 years solely for defending their lives and the lives of their children.
 
I guess the only thing I can say is read a fucking book. I've provided you evidence that Westmoreland himself supports and you bring me human shit in a bag.
The thing is, I don't think we're even really disagreeing. I get the feeling you've concocted some sort of strawman of my posts in your mind that you're arguing against (and maybe I did as well). Not even blaming you - my English is shit.

Anyway, I completely understand that you're sick of this autistic discussion.
Just rate it dumb and move on. "lol no I got da facts" just seems petty to me.
 
The whole thing was because the Clintons and Janet Reno wanted to make an example of what they saw as "right-wing extremists and civilian militias". They didn't like the idea of a large group of people who were armed and organized, because if more people get armed and organized it takes away the control the government can exert over them. It had nothing to do with child abuse, Koresh marrying minors, drugs, or anything else. Those are just excuses to cover for the real motivations for the raid. Ruby Ridge was the same story. In fact, Randy Weaver was set up by an undercover agent. He was pressured by the undercover agent for a long time to cut down a shotgun to an illegal length. Lon Horiuchi, the FBI HRT sniper who shot Weaver's wife while holding their baby, was also present at Waco.

All those people, including innocent women and children, slaughtered because the ATF wanted funding and because the Clintons and Reno hated that they exercised their right to own firearms. And their legacy has been to be slandered/libeled and lied about. The whole reason we have the Second Amendment is to protect ourselves from a government drunk on power like this.

It was also just Reno's personality. She was a women to rise to high office and felt the need to be tough on everything. She sent armed men to get Elian Gonzalez for no particular reason.

I always found it weird that the lesson Americans took from Ruby Ridge and Waco is that you need guns to defend yourself from the government. Even though guns failed to protect them against the feds and were what caused the situation to escalate in the first place.

You don't fight a guerilla war by forting up.

It should be noted: They were a messianic group that intended to die to the last. They were the "wave sheath", the first to die during the Battle of Armageddon.
 
The Dude said:
Anyone who believes that people armed with small arms are no match against a modern military like the US had need only look to the Viet Cong or the GWoT to see how effective guerilla tactics still are in this day and age

Those tactics are not effective in the slightest against an opponent with the military strength and industrial capacity of the US who is determined to win. The only reason the US did not win in vietnam or the war on terror is because they held back both for ethical reasons and due to pressure back home

The US could have mopped the floor with the entire middle east in a few months if they truly wanted to and had a need to and were willing to do what was necessary to do so. Have them take the gloves off and start targeting civilians on a large scale, start deploying biological and chemical weapons, start large scale mass napalming of cities and towns, start using terror tactics themselves. Completely disregard the geneva convention and be full on total war about it, engage in cruelty that would make the romans and the germans cringe.

Then tell me how those guerilla fighters with no support, shitty logistics, minimal manpower and no large scale offensive capability, nor, naval or air support of any kind do and how long they last

Not that I expect such things to actually happen, but that isn't the point. The point is if the US government wants to win a war against its own citizens (or anyone else for that matter) it will. This is not the 1770s or the 1860s and it is not a level playing field anymore. It boils down to the fact that if the US wants to be cruel and ruthless about it it will win any war against anyone it goes up against, period

The Dude said:
And your argument only shows just how far Second Amendment rights have been eroded. The Second Amendment was meant by the Founding Fathers as a way for average people to protect themselves from a tyrannical government by allowing them to be armed just as well as any standing army the tyrannical government could muster.

The second amendment had its place and time in US history. That was a time when both defending yourself against a tyrannical government and overthrowing one was achievable on a practical level because the government and the people had access to more or less the same level of weapons and technology. What the government used against its citizens could be used against it. That is not the case anymore and never will be again. As it is now, such an amendment is a completely useless relic which is completely incapable of fulfilling its original purpose. It should have been removed from the constitution the instant the civil war ended

The Dude said:
Benjamin Franklin owned canons that he lent out to the Boston Militia to fend off the Red Coats. So the fact that an average citizen can't go out and buy a belt-fed machine gun or howitzer any time they feel like it is an infringement on the Second Amendment.

No it isn't. By that logic you should be able to go out and buy a tank, an aircraft carrier and a crate full of cruise missiles 'just in case' which is utterly nonsensical and would achieve nothing even if you could obtain even a fraction of the weaponry and equipment the government has available. Even if you could get it, it is so highly technical on average that it requires a significant logistical and supply chain, as well as trained specialists just to keep it functional and in working order

A Cardboard Box said:
Read "Westmoreland's War." It's a great retrospective on the failure of American strategy in Vietnam. One of the defining factors of the "hearts and minds" campaign was the widespread use of South Korean soldiers to protect the US designated "Strategic Hamlets" which were designed to replicate the success of the British during the Malayan Emergency. Koreans are extremely racist and South Korean troops razed entire villages they were tasked with protecting. We're talking Mai Lai Massacres regularly. This led to the expulsion of hundreds of thousands of Korean troops and the further stretching of American manpower as the Americans struggled to plug even more holes in the defensive gaps with their limited resources. After the South Koreans left, the Vietnamese people never really got over the "SEATO murdered my entire family" thing.

The brutal crackdown and copious warcrimes by South Koreans effectively killed the SHP by generating home grown insurgents inside the safe zones. This is well documented. Basically your "might makes right" attitude is exceptional.

Your point is what exactly? That south koreans pissed the vietnemese off enough that they fought the US and the US fought with one hand tied behind their backs and didn't deploy sufficient forces? and? Might does make right from a military standpoint. There are no exceptions to that rule. I'll say it again, the US had more than sufficient forces to defeat them easily is they had been willing to do what was required to do so. This has nothing to do with what they did do historically, it has everything to do with what they could have done had they been hellbent on winning at any cost. People like genghis khan and julius caesar were militarily successful for a reason

A Cardboard Box said:
You explicitly said that if SEATO used a heavier hand they would've won, and I've proven to you one of the key failures of the SHP and the Hearts and Minds Campaign was the excessively heavy handed strategy of the South Koreans.

You are wrong and you need to read a book.

Define 'heavier hand' If they used a heavy enough hand they would have won. You don't need to win hearts and minds to win a war and neutralize a threat. Ask the mongols and the romans about that

and just to be clear about this, i'm not saying they would have ever done these things, or that anyone should, i'm simply saying that if an country like the US wants to win a war and they want it badly enough they will

That said, getting back to the original point of the thread, that the people killed during the waco siege ever thought they had any possibility of holding out against, let alone winning a standoff with the US government is pretty damn exceptional in itself. Groups like that who think they are going to hoard some guns and supplies and have some kind of heroic stand against the big evil imperialist government are either stupid as a bag of rocks or utterly insane

The same goes for the prepper types who think they are going to come out ahead in any form of government turning on its citizens or post apocalypse type scenario
 
ITT: @garakfan69 and @WonderWino basically argue that the Second Amendment doesn't work because the military exists, even though Waco only ended up the way it did because the Branch Davidians were determined to be as non-aggressive as possible against an extremely aggressive government agency.
 
Koresh was on good terms with the local sheriff and would have come down to the station if the sheriff had been allowed by the FBI to call him before the raid.

Yeah, from all the contemporary sources it seems like if there were actual, reasonable warrants with legitimacy they could have handed them to the sheriff and everything could have gone off without a hitch. Sadly it seemed like the alphabet agencies weren't interested in doing things effectively without loss of life.
 
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ITT: @garakfan69 and @WonderWino basically argue that the Second Amendment doesn't work because the military exists, even though Waco only ended up the way it did because the Branch Davidians were determined to be as non-aggressive as possible against an extremely aggressive government agency.

lolwut? are you seriously trying to imply the outcome would have been any different had said branch davidians responded more aggressively? do you know how that scenario ends? the ATF simply shoots them all, if for some reason the ATF is held off, the military goes in and wipes the floor with them in ten seconds flat. a few armed cultists in a compound are not going to hold out against trained, equipped soldiers. period. the military is specifically trained to deal with exactly the kind of scenario we're discussing
 
lolwut? are you seriously trying to imply the outcome would have been any different had said branch davidians responded more aggressively? do you know how that scenario ends? the ATF simply shoots them all, if for some reason the ATF is held off, the military goes in and wipes the floor with them in ten seconds flat. a few armed cultists in a compound are not going to hold out against trained, equipped soldiers. period. the military is specifically trained to deal with exactly the kind of scenario we're discussing
I remember @JohnDoe and @Jet Fuel Johnny making posts debunking this kind of argument a while ago.
 
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lolwut? are you seriously trying to imply the outcome would have been any different had said branch davidians responded more aggressively? do you know how that scenario ends? the ATF simply shoots them all, if for some reason the ATF is held off, the military goes in and wipes the floor with them in ten seconds flat. a few armed cultists in a compound are not going to hold out against trained, equipped soldiers. period. the military is specifically trained to deal with exactly the kind of scenario we're discussing
I think what he's suggesting is that if the Branch Davidians had been part of an organized anti-government resistance, they could have wiped out the secret police forces on site, and then split out throughout the country in independent cells to attack secret police and military installations.

In theory- this is true, but it wouldn't be done by the Davidians because they were peaceful people, and their only outside supporter with the courage of his convictions was McVeigh, so it wasn't going to happen.
 
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