The Windows OS Thread - Formerly THE OS for gamers and normies, now sadly ruined by Pajeets

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Even on trains and planes I can just plug it in if I want to.
And trying to use a laptop on a plane(that you don't own) is miserable. I just pull out the iPad or phone and consoom content when I travel. I'm not even sure how long my laptop battery lasts as the primary goal is just to make it from the desk to the conference room for meetings when I'm at the office.
 
Sure, it's a nice to have if it can run for 18 hours but when was the last time I was away from charging for more than a few hours. Even on trains and planes I can just plug it in if I want to.
It completely changes the way you use a laptop, you're not beholden to keeping it charged up. Even "all day" battery life is kinda worthless if you forget to charge overnight.

It's worth calling out that the battery life numbers are always funny numbers dependent on how it's tested. Getting 8h or 11h if you're sitting staring at notepad in a "video playback loop" where only the media block needs to be engaged isn't really impressive. A lot of Intel and AMD laptops fall down hard if you're doing anything too taxing which can include even mundane things like keeping too many tabs open.
 
And trying to use a laptop on a plane(that you don't own) is miserable. I just pull out the iPad or phone and consoom content when I travel. I'm not even sure how long my laptop battery lasts as the primary goal is just to make it from the desk to the conference room for meetings when I'm at the office.
Yep. Another reason why my next laptop is likely to be a 2-in-1 like the Yoga. Just fold it over and have it on my lap or put it teepee style on the tray. Touch screens are nice as well. It's surprising how quickly you get used to just scrolling a window with a finger or pinching to zoom/unzoom the screen. Obviously not with a desktop but with a laptop you do it often, at least I do.

It completely changes the way you use a laptop, you're not beholden to keeping it charged up. Even "all day" battery life is kinda worthless if you forget to charge overnight.
It did. When we went from having four hours to 8 hours. I even used to have multiple battery packs to swap in when one ran out. But going from 8hrs to 11hrs? Less of a life changer. From 11hrs to 18hrs? Rarely if ever will that matter to me. Yet manufacturers keep on chasing the metric the same way with phones they kept on chasing thinness at the expense of everything else.

"Forget to charge it over night"? That hasn't been a factor for me for a long time. Why is it even drained at the end of the day? It spends most of it plugged into a monitor which charges it at the same time. An hour commute on a train? That does nothing to render it drained at the end of the day. It's always got juice left in the morning, plenty to get me where I'm going - which these days will have charging on whatever form of transport I'm commuting with. (Unless it's a car or motorbike, in which case probably shouldn't be using it anyway).

Sure, I'm old enough to remember being "beholden" to charging. But, we're past that point. If 11 hours is plenty, it's not a selling point to me that Macs offer me 18 hours.

It's worth calling out that the battery life numbers are always funny numbers dependent on how it's tested. Getting 8h or 11h if you're sitting staring at notepad in a "video playback loop" where only the media block needs to be engaged isn't really impressive. A lot of Intel and AMD laptops fall down hard if you're doing anything too taxing which can include even mundane things like keeping too many tabs open.
Oh, I'm well of published vs. real world. That's why I check out and quote real world usage tests like Office suite simulations or whatever. But really, I have Windows laptops. I don't seem them "falling down hard". Even when I do more intensive stuff (though heavy lifting I'm mostly doing remote into something these days), it's got more than enough battery life for my needs.

Yeah, the more I write about this, the more I feel battery life in laptops has become the same as thinness in phones was. Something that manufacturers and reviews keep obsessing over even though we're now moving into the phase where it's largely "good enough" for everybody.
 
Macbook Air starts off at 256GB SSD version, 16GB RAM, 13" screen (about the same as a Surface Go for 2/3rds the price). Screen real estate is one of the primary things that contributes to practical utility working on a laptop. That's also with a 16:10 aspect ratio which on a screen that small is just plain bad. They're designed to work with a monitor and working on the go to be a back up.

The low-end Macbooks are designed to be in a student's backpack and fit comfortably on a lecture hall desk. Apple has beaten the x86 competition to death in the student market by prioritizing portability and durability over winning gaming benchmarks. Some campus surveys show Apple having as high as a 50% market share with the students. Also, Apple is now the #1 laptop company globally:
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Dell & HP are more popular in the US thanks to landing most of the juicy corporate contracts.

Cheaper for equivalent performance or better, though

18% faster, 60% more power consumption:
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Core Ultra absolutely dominates Ryzen AI as a notebook CPU:

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Ryzen wins on GFLOPs per dollar. Intel wins on minutes of use per dollar. The second matters far more for a laptop than the first.
 
It spends most of it plugged into a monitor which charges it at the same time.
So you haven't changed anything you're keeping it plugged in all the time at a desk?

When you pair long life and fast charging you can invert the entire concept. Use it anywhere, leave it anywhere, charge every now and then, same thing you do with a phone. You don't need to consider making sure things are charged, it lasts long enough with 30%. And even with 15h of life I'd love to see 20 or 25. I don't need faster computers I need more usable ones with nicer inputs and output.
 
Or your work processes are moderately complex and you don't want to single-task something all day long. God I hate doing anything professional on a Mac. Trying to work effectively on multi-monitor set ups compared to Windows and all its nice little features and shortcuts for window handling just makes MacOS a continuous frustration to me. I used to think MacOS vs. Windows was just a question of what you were used to until I started using a Mac. I gave it a real good go, too. I would sooner work on Gnome and the fucking DE of MacOS. It's practically a phone OS with bolted on multi-tasking.
I think you're 100% right about the out of the box experience on macos, but the lines seriously begin to blur when you start adding additional tools. Tools like Raycast can fix so many of the issues I had with Macos instantly, with minimal configuration, with no bugs. On Windows there are alot of tools to assist with your workflow, but I find that none of them really work well together. They require alot of additional configuration, and once implemented the experience feels clunkier. The superior virtual desktop/workspace experience is also a big part of the issue imo. I use virtual desktops constantly in MacOS and Linux, and find the Windows implementation to be alot slower, with awful keybinds as well. I find it pretty difficult to work on Windows with less than 3 monitors, but feel totally fine with 2 on other platforms.
 
Nobody said you can't get an energy-hungry mass of chips in a low-quality box for a discount price. I have a gaming laptop as well - the M1 Macbook Pro my wife has is simply a better machine. Lighter weight, nicer screen, better trackpad, far better build quality, and of course, much better battery life due to the infinitely better CPU. Comparing a gaming laptop to a Macbook is a little bit like comparing a Dodge Charger to a Mercedes-Benz.
Keeping with car references.
It is more like a purchase of a car that has flaws but the buyer constantly tries to use rationalization of the said purchase by finding subjective benefits.

Well, maybe it was the same price as Maserati Quatroporte but at least with my Ram Dodge I can go for a hike to the forest.

Despite that I do agree that it realy depends on the utilization of said computer. I ain't gonna force you to admit that Apple computers despite many advantages over PC's are highly overpriced piece of technology immersed as a piece of art/fashion/status confirmation. But I will argue about, for example, keyboard is a mess in Apple computers which is prone to jam by dirt, small debris that float in home etc. Screens are made by Samsung and said Mac can't be upgradeable/repairable by the user.


I am returning to Windows 11 after 3 months of voyage on Linux.
 
I am returning to Windows 11 after 3 months of voyage on Linux.
Maybe one day the Linux community that Windows getting worse won't be enough, and that Linux also has to get better. You can only go so far in convincing people to switch by pointing out what problems you don't have while constantly omitting every single problem only you have.

Windows 11's two greatest sins are:
-shitty React UI (salvageable)
-major breakages with updates like the SSD or WinRE issue (biggest deal breaker)
Install anything but Home, you can have a local account with no OneDrive or BitLocker just fine. All things considered, it's still less of a hassle to get 11 to the point where you can use your computer in peace than it takes to do the same with Linux. A cold hard truth, but no, people won't switch to your OS if it takes them more effort to get it to the point of "just works", and not everyone only needs a web browser. No matter how bad Windows gets, it's underlying guts still "just work", as no matter how much curry shit it gets coated in, Dave Cutler's DNA as well as all the post-Longhorn rewrites still reside in the foundation, keeping everything in check.

Fun fact: when I went through OOBE of my laptop that was pre-installed with Windows 11, while yes, it demanded an Internet connection to pull updates before setting me up (just do it post-OOBE it's not that important Nadella you jeet), I was able to easily make a local account, and once that was done: no BitLocker, no OneDrive integration. I believe that all of those complaints about 11 stem from the Home version users that have no other choice but to set up a Microsoft account that then sets up all of this shit, but any other edition of 11 won't have those problems.
 
. But I will argue about, for example, keyboard is a mess in Apple computers which is prone to jam by dirt, small debris that float in home etc.
This hasn't been the case for half a decade at this point. Apple got rid of the butterfly keyboard and went back to their old design.
 
Sending screenshots would consume an insane amount of bandwidth.
Also, source is a single user on fucking ResetEra. To remind you, we have a Community Watch thread on that site with two fucking thousand pages worth of posts as it is filled to the brim with the most sensitive spactic troons you could find. Yet here we have a """reputable journalist""" using that cesspite of a site as a """reputable source of information""" and everyone is just deepthroating that article without doing a proper verification. Why? Because it shits on Windows 11, so who cares if it's true or not?

This is something that could and can be replicated and verified to be happening. We have Wireshark, we have MITMproxy, we have all sorts of methods of verifying what traffic goes to where from which process, but it takes knowledge, skill and effort to verify such claims. What doesn't is blindly believing an article with a controversial headline that aligns with your views and preaching it as gospel without verifying whether it's true or not. Some troon on ReeesetEra said so and some journo just blindly repeated it? Well then it must be 100% true!

But then of course all the users that propagate headlines like this will get all uppity when journoscum blatantly lie about Kiwi Farms, but as long as you're not on the receiving end but the people that you hate are then all moves are allowed.
ha tfu.jpg
Bunch of hypocrites is what some of the people on this site are.
 
I ain't gonna force you to admit that Apple computers despite many advantages over PC's are highly overpriced piece of technology immersed as a piece of art/fashion/status confirmation

Because they're not overpriced. Any x86 vendor who tries to approach Apple quality finds that you can't actually deliver the quality Apple does for half the price. Really, the only laptop that is in the same league is the Lenovo Thinkpad, and guess what, they're not cheap at all.

Well, maybe it was the same price as Maserati Quatroporte but at least with my Ram Dodge I can go for a hike to the forest.

This is a bad analogy because cheaping out on a budget x86 laptop doesn't get you any capability a well-built machine doesn't offer, it just gets you worse quality in exchange for leaving more money in your wallet.
 
The low-end Macbooks are designed to be in a student's backpack and fit comfortably on a lecture hall desk. Apple has beaten the x86 competition to death in the student market by prioritizing portability and durability over winning gaming benchmarks. Some campus surveys show Apple having as high as a 50% market share with the students. Also, Apple is now the #1 laptop company globally:
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Well that explains the price point they target, since most students just immediately take out giant loans and worry about it later. Or if they worry about it now, the cost of everything else probably makes the Macbook the least of their worries.

I hadn't really considered the student market when I talked about plugging it into the monitor. But that's on me for not making my context explicit. I was considering the professional world and there I would imagine most productive people would prefer a 15" one. I personally would struggle to do serious work on a single 13" screen day in day out. Plugging it into a monitor would be basic, and I think that's true of most.

Regards the pie chart, I'm not a fanboy of any company so it doesn't matter to me whether or not Apple is the largest single laptop company now nor do I take popularity as a proxy for quality (too many exceptions to that rule). But as you post it, I'll say I don't really think it's apples to apples. They might have 17% but Apple are the only company that makes Apple computers. The other 83% is going to be overwhelmingly x86 with some growing ARM share. And I don't imagine Microsoft cares that much they're only "4%" of hardware when they created the Surface line mainly to push the Windows market to have a reference and higher base line. In any case, as said - I'm only really interested in actual value, not "my team".

Dell & HP are more popular in the US thanks to landing most of the juicy corporate contracts.
I generally like Dell as their consumer machines are also good. Whereas every HP thing I've had in the consumer space, I damn near had to format and reinstall to get anything close to a clean version of Windows.

18% faster, 60% more power consumption:
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60 > 18 isn't really a comparison when the numbers are counting things of different value. I will absolutely take 18% more performance in exchange for increasing my annual running cost by $2.01. My time is worth more than $2.01/(8h*5d*52w). That only becomes a bad bargain if the increased power consumption actually hinders my use and that's my main point - that 11 hours is plenty for me. It's as long as I'd want to use it between any points I travel and most every mode of travel where I could simultaneously work I could simultaneously charge. Battery life was once a critical determining factor in the viability of a laptop. Now it's more akin to someone with a 5090 playing on a 1080p monitor. Some people might have a big 120Hz 4K screen and want graphics settings cranked up higher than they can tell the difference. But for most people, it's simply not worth paying a premium for when you've already hit 'good enough'.

All that said, I'm actually considering buying one of the Lenovo Yogas because the form factor is desirable to me and I might get the Intel version on the strength that it has USB4. Additional battery life is still a nice to have, I'm not dismissing it. It's just become something way over-focused on by reviewers and vendors, imo.

So you haven't changed anything you're keeping it plugged in all the time at a desk?
No. I'm just saying that any time that I do spend at a desk it's inherently charging up. I think someone made a comment about finding the laptop was drained in the morning. I was querying how that managed to come about between fast charging and any prolonged period of working on it being somewhere you could keep it on charge conveniently. The fact newer laptops can charge from the monitor cable was an example of how convenient and normal it is to always be charging when using it.

When you pair long life and fast charging you can invert the entire concept. Use it anywhere, leave it anywhere, charge every now and then, same thing you do with a phone. You don't need to consider making sure things are charged, it lasts long enough with 30%. And even with 15h of life I'd love to see 20 or 25. I don't need faster computers I need more usable ones with nicer inputs and output.
Okay, well more is always nice, but nothing is free and I don't care to pay for things I don't need. Maybe you're an outlier but you say even with 15hrs (and I mean real, not advertised), you'd love to see 20 or 25 - my question would be when was the last time you went 15hrs of use without it being convenient to charge it? I emphasise the convenient because I'm not trying to dismiss anything but absolute technicalities. I mean like 15hrs of use where it would have been actual hassle.

Honestly, the only scenario I can think of where this would actually be significant is one in which I've forgotten my charger. Even there, I could get a dirt cheap USB charger in any all night garage or hotel or grab one off someone else.

Again, I'm not saying it isn't a nice to have. But people have got to stop acting like it's something that is a major differentiator anymore. For most of us, it simply isn't.

I think you're 100% right about the out of the box experience on macos, but the lines seriously begin to blur when you start adding additional tools. Tools like Raycast can fix so many of the issues I had with Macos instantly, with minimal configuration, with no bugs. On Windows there are alot of tools to assist with your workflow, but I find that none of them really work well together. They require alot of additional configuration, and once implemented the experience feels clunkier. The superior virtual desktop/workspace experience is also a big part of the issue imo. I use virtual desktops constantly in MacOS and Linux, and find the Windows implementation to be alot slower, with awful keybinds as well. I find it pretty difficult to work on Windows with less than 3 monitors, but feel totally fine with 2 on other platforms.
When I was using a Mac I was told that "Rectangles" would solve my issues. It did not. I wont dismiss Raycast on the basis of that past experience. I'll take your word for it that it makes a big difference, I'm not familiar with it. I will say that there are a lot of nice features in Windows - even 11 - for window management and I find it fine myself. I tend to use Docker a lot more these days and I don't really need virtual desktops. Everything is just remote connections which can be quite seamless in VS Code or Windows Terminal. When I do have a full virtual machine it's almost always Linux for me and I'm just using WSL2. I'm making a bit of a guess but you're perhaps using Hyper-V? If so I would agree on that not being perfect fun to use with DEs, but then nearly everything I do remotely (even local "remote") doesn't need DEs. So different scenarios.
 
Well that explains the price point they target, since most students just immediately take out giant loans and worry about it later.
It's $600, or around 0.5% of a 4-year, in-state degree.

I was considering the professional world and there I would imagine most productive people would prefer a 15" one.
A very popular alternative to Macbook in the professional world is a Lenovo Thinkbook, which starts at $800 for a basic model and can quickly rise to over $2,000. On a five-year depreciation schedule, this will run you roughly 0.5% of the total cost of the employee who uses it. Penny-pinching work laptops is penny-wise, pound-retarded.

Regards the pie chart, I'm not a fanboy of any company so it doesn't matter to me whether or not Apple is the largest single laptop company now
Market share shows you market response. You said battery life doesn't matter, and laptop makers have made a mistake by paying attention to it. The market says otherwise. Apple has grown its market share for years against Dell, HPE, and Lenovo (that's who it competes with, not Microsoft). Saying they don't truly compete because Windows and OSX don't have 100% application compatibility is cope. The graveyard of silicon is littered with chips whose makers thought they weren't competing with x86 - you are always competing with x86.

60 > 18 isn't really a comparison when the numbers are counting things of different value. I will absolutely take 18% more performance in exchange for increasing my annual running cost by $2.01.
The opportunity cost of a dead battery isn't $2.01, it's getting nothing done at all. Over 5 years of asset depreciation, a laptop only needs to save me 3-5 dead battery incidents to be worth it to the company.

I will absolutely take 18% more performance in exchange for increasing my annual running cost by $2.01. My time is worth more than $2.01/(8h*5d*52w).
+18% performance doesn't save you +18% time, especially not on a laptop, given what laptops are used for. Like if you spend an hour on a Teams call, a faster CPU saves you zero time during that hour.
 
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I upgraded to 11 Pro. It's okay. Changed the window snapping and everything seems to run fine. HDR looks better. Still don't understand why the Control Panel and the Settings haven't been fully merged yet.
Meanwhile over in Windows land I can get a 10th Gen Yoga 14" with AMD Ryzen AI 7 350 for less than the Air, it has twice the RAM (32GB), twice the storage space (512GB), WiFi 7 (vs. Air's 6E), touch screen, tablet configuration, stylus...
Apple will never put a touch screen on their macbooks for fear of cannibalizing the ipad line. I'd buy a macbook/ipad hybrid in a heartbeat but some things aren't meant to be. :(
 
The price begins to climb. Meanwhile over in Windows land I can get a 10th Gen Yoga 14" with AMD Ryzen AI 7 350 for less than the Air, it has twice the RAM (32GB), twice the storage space (512GB), WiFi 7 (vs. Air's 6E), touch screen, tablet configuration, stylus... Oh no - it only scored 11 hours battery life in tests.

Maybe if you're scoring an overstock deal from an Amazon 3rd-party seller. 32 GB Ryzen AI notebooks aren't even listed by Lenovo now.

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Not quite the savings I was expecting to see in exchange for a weaker CPU and worse battery life.
 
The low-end Macbooks are designed to be in a student's backpack and fit comfortably on a lecture hall desk. Apple has beaten the x86 competition to death in the student market by prioritizing portability and durability over winning gaming benchmarks. Some campus surveys show Apple having as high as a 50% market share with the students. Also, Apple is now the #1 laptop company globally:
Adding onto this as a current college student; literally no one except Apple is even trying in the student market. Non-gaming Windows laptops can maybe eke out 5 hours of battery life if you're doing nothing with them while Apple is regularly boasting 17-20 hours. It's one of the most important metrics for students because being tied to a wall outlet drastically limits where you can study.

There are Snapdragon laptops I guess but those are easily 2-3x the price of a regular Macbook Air, and I seriously doubt you're going to be getting "multi-day battery life" on fucking Windows 11 unless you have nothing open. You would also be running Windows 11, a significant downgrade compared to macOS.
 
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