Tolkien general thread

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The Lord of the Rings isn't bad, though it has script flaws -- it's even lampshaded when Frodo and Sam are in Osgiliath and Sam says 'I don't think we're supposed to be here'. No shit, Sam, in the books you never went anywhere near Osgiliath!

The Hobbit adaptation, though... hoo boy. That was so patchy it made my head hurt. I wanted to like it, really -- Richard Armitage's Thorin had a kind of 'grenade with the pin pulled' vibe that was intense. But damn, did they pad the shit out of that into three movies.
 
The Hobbit movies always threw me off mostly due to the obscene amount of CGI. I know that there was plenty in the LOTR movies (especially in RoTK), but The Hobbit movies were just crazy. It felt like it was too rushed and everything, and there wasn't nearly as much love and care put into them as there was for the LOTR trilogy.
 
The wokies have wanted to wreck LOTR and Tolkien for a while now.

I know people are probably tired of me trashing the modern state of publishing and SFWA, but they have been sniping at Tolkien for a simple reason.

It doesn't matter how many token authors get book deals, work to drive male and conservative authors from the field, toss as many awards and as much marketing ar thier books as they like...

It doesn't mean a damn thing since thier books don't sell. They can crank out all the woke crap spec fiction they want, but they can't force audiences to buy it.

Which is why they loathe Tolkien so much... they're still getting thier asses kicked by an author whose been dead for over 50 years now. Paperbacks of any single one of his books probably sell more copies in a given month than every Hugo nominee of the past five years COMBINED.

They can't beat Tolkien, and they sure as shit can't outwrite him. So they want to destroy him.
 
I think LOTR is the only property where I completely get those who don't like the movies and don't mind at all, because it can be extremely jarring when you compare them to the books and how much richer and deeper the source material is. Yet I still enjoy the movies, even on rewatches, because, well, they're pretty good for an entertainment standpoint. I think it's nice to have both sides so you can be critical of the movie property and highlight just how brilliant Tolkien is, but you can also celebrate what they did right and enjoy what they brought. The music, the special effects and miniatures, the actors, etc.

I find it a nice balance tbh, and enjoy the discussions a lot when it comes up because it's interesting to see where the movies failed for the book fans, or where they went right. And I tend to agree with a lot of the points - especially with Faramir. But it doesn't diminish my enjoyment that someone else doesn't like them, because I know at the end of the day we'll still both love the books.

Of course, none of this applies to the Hobbit movies for me, because those were just... bad.

Which is why they loathe Tolkien so much... they're still getting thier asses kicked by an author whose been dead for over 50 years now. Paperbacks of any single one of his books probably sell more copies in a given month than every Hugo nominee of the past five years COMBINED.

They can't beat Tolkien, and they sure as shit can't outwrite him. So they want to destroy him.

I know there's a Consoomerism thread on the farms for those who blindly buy products from a company, but I'll admit I am one for Tolkien. They announced this year that "HarperCollins is to release a brand new edition of The Lord of the Rings featuring, for the first time since its publication in 1954, paintings, drawings and sketches by J R R Tolkien", and I am buying it for myself for Christmas because I enjoy the books that much and I want to see Tolkien's artwork. It's exciting. Not to mention, this is the only fantasy book I plan to buy this year because of exactly what @Boston Brand has pointed out.

There is very little new fantasy that comes out that isn't either wokeshit, poorly written, or just plain bad. The more authors get angry that I would rather put my money towards a new edition of LOTR, the more it makes me want to do so, because I would rather support a property made in the 1940s than given them a single dime for their blandshit wokefest starring Joggers, Trannies, Racism and paperthin worldbuilding. They will never be able to compare to his works because they simply don't put in the skill, effort, or intelligence to create something timeless.

That and they're incapable of thinking of anything but themselves and fame. The Hobbit reads as Tolkien's fantastic story for his children that anyone can enjoy, and the LOTR an epic continuation of a grander mythology that he wished to tell for the world. Modern Fantasy books read like the author is jacking themselves off because they "created" a fantasy land with such hard hitting topics as sexism and racism, and you need to applaud them for taking the mental energy to do so.
 
The music, the special effects and miniatures, the actors, etc.

I can agree with that. It's mainly the writers who need a kick in the pants.

I know there's a Consoomerism thread on the farms for those who blindly buy products from a company, but I'll admit I am one for Tolkien. They announced this year that "HarperCollins is to release a brand new edition of The Lord of the Rings featuring, for the first time since its publication in 1954, paintings, drawings and sketches by J R R Tolkien", and I am buying it for myself

:jacewow:

I can agree with that!
 
I can't watch the films after the first viewing. I saw the first two and only parts of the third, and that was enough for me. They could snip out Tom Bombadil, Glorfindel and a million songs. That's alright, and understandable, but they messed about with the personalities and meaning of so many of the characters that were left, and I can't accept it was for the expediency of cramming it all into a two hour runtime.

Also, there are a lot of changes that are too on the nose, or in your face. I get that it's fantasy, fantastical things are supposed to happen, but did Theoden need to be a literal marionette in Sarumans clutches, and did 'many lines of care were wiped away' need to be a literal transformation from Howard Hughes to Santa Claus? There are lots of other things like that, many of them small, petty things to mention, but they add up.

You could expect these things when you hand the adaptation of some of the most popular fiction in the world to someone best known for schlocky, junky zombie flicks. I say the LotR trilogy didn't succeed because of Peter Jackson, but despite him. It succeeded because of the base story underneath it, and the army of concept artists including longtime Tolkien illustrators and effects people put to work on it. Also, what do I know, but I'd contend that it's difficult to fuck up sweeping shots of majestic mountain ranges, especially if you throw enough money at them.
Look at what he's done since. The Hobbit trilogy is what is what happens when you pull Tolkien apart even more, and stuff even more Jackson into the gaps.

The irony is I only started reading the books because I heard there was a film trilogy in the works.
I understand where this position comes from, but most of Jackson's sins are simply because of the limitations of the medium of film. Long spells of people just walking and singing? Extremely nuanced characters near the end of the story? Lots of campfire storytelling, and exposition? Maybe with a mini series, but a 9 hour (extended) movie? Thats a bit generous. He capitalizes on films strengths very well. Jackson's fellowship is absolutely terrifying, and his Two Towers is glorious. His Return of the King was more triumphant than depressing, but I think that was intentional and probably for the best.

I'd say he only really drops the ball on the third film by fundamentally changing some story elements to add drama that are unnecessary, but some of it is understandable. He has to include both the Frodo & Sam parts alongside the Rohan/Gondor parts without making the prior's parts boring in comparison. In a movie like this everything should be happening at around the same time . Switching from some glorious battle to them struggling to climb a cliff isn't really that interesting. Them going to Osgiliath is silly, but it serves the role of showing whats up with Gondor, and is more than them just walking and seeing cool statues. The books shift from one theater to the next by the book. Movies can't do that.

Even with the Steward I see the logic. There is no time. May as well just go all in and make him a "bad King" archetype to emphasize that Gondor is leaderless.

The wokies have wanted to wreck LOTR and Tolkien for a while now.

I know people are probably tired of me trashing the modern state of publishing and SFWA, but they have been sniping at Tolkien for a simple reason.

It doesn't matter how many token authors get book deals, work to drive male and conservative authors from the field, toss as many awards and as much marketing ar thier books as they like...

It doesn't mean a damn thing since thier books don't sell. They can crank out all the woke crap spec fiction they want, but they can't force audiences to buy it.

Which is why they loathe Tolkien so much... they're still getting thier asses kicked by an author whose been dead for over 50 years now. Paperbacks of any single one of his books probably sell more copies in a given month than every Hugo nominee of the past five years COMBINED.

They can't beat Tolkien, and they sure as shit can't outwrite him. So they want to destroy him.

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Its kinda funny. The New York Times list is basically just 10k books and they act like this is the end all and be all. Meanwhile people still walk into the store and pick up 5 copies of Tolkien.
 
Can't disagree with the dearth of non-pozzed fantasy these days. You might poke through the Baen authors -- Larry Correia did this weird series which had a wild Indian/Japanese fusion vibe to it (Saga of the Forgotten Warrior).

I dearly miss David Eddings. OK, his stuff was basically a grilled cheese sandwich next to the filet mignon of Tolkien, but it was a decent enough grilled cheese sandwich.
 
I don’t like the films. I think the only part that nails it is the music, Howard Shores work is iconic and fantastic. The tone is off, the colors are wrong
Did you watch the theatrical cut or the CGIesque Director's Cut?
the acting in general is too stiff or overly melodramatic.
Did you even read the books lol
It's literally written like an European anime.
 
Can't disagree with the dearth of non-pozzed fantasy these days. You might poke through the Baen authors -- Larry Correia did this weird series which had a wild Indian/Japanese fusion vibe to it (Saga of the Forgotten Warrior).

I dearly miss David Eddings. OK, his stuff was basically a grilled cheese sandwich next to the filet mignon of Tolkien, but it was a decent enough grilled cheese sandwich.

Oh man, so happy to see someone else likes Correia's Forgotten Warrior Saga.

In my personal opinion, it's the best new fantasy series of the paat decade.

As a bonus, he says if the lawyers clear it, he wants to dedicate the fifth and final book to George RR Martin: "I wrote an entire series in less time than your next book. Suck it."

Eddings' Belgariad has always been a favorite too... not revolutionary, but a fun journey all the same.
 
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Oh man, so happy to see someone else likes Correia's Forgotten Warrior Saga.

In my personal opinion, it's the best new fantasy series of the paat decade.

As a bonus, he says if the lawyers clear it, he wants to dedicate the fifth and final book to George RR Martin: "I wrote an entire series in less time than your next book. Suck it."
Writing slow isn't a bad thing, Tolkien took what a decade plus to write the LOTR and never finished the Silmarillion, but yeah GRRM has no excuse.
 
Writing slow isnt a bad thing Tolkien took what a decade plus to write the LOTR and never finished the Silmarillion, but yeah GRRM has no excuse.

Corriea actually is the one who pointed out if Martin spent as little effort as a couple paragraphs a day on his books, he could have written book 6 twice. For that matter, Martin has written more than half a million words on his blog since 2011.

Corriea's often a dick, but he's rarely wrong.

Plus, between Game of Thrones tanking and SFWA turning on him... to the point where a literal Hugo nomination this year went to a speech telling him to fuck himself... I think Martin has lost any motivation he once had to finish the books.
 

I'm really tired of fujoshi infiltrating things just to tell everyone how much they flick their bean to two dudes fucking. I don't know what happened in the modern era that made everyone fucking retarded that they can't divorce themselves from modern "progressive" mindsets and see sexuality in everything, but I wish gatekeeping would come back in full force and bully these bitches like they deserve to get rid of a lot of this shit.

Even if you refuse to acknowledge that homosexuality in Tolkien's day was not acceptable, and such things would not be written into his Legendarium, it's still devaluing friendships and the complexity of human love. Sam was Frodo's Gardener and Frodo was his master - not in some creepy 'daddy' sexslave type of way, but in the way of class standing. Just like monarchs have servants in their castles. It's something lost nowdays with class systems being rather muddled, but if you understand the loyalty and love a servant has for their Lord/Duke/King, etc. then their gross fixation that it has to be sexual is deeply uncomfortable and frankly, disgusting. What sort of fucked in the head do you have to be that you view a property as QUEER and need to ship in order to "fully" enjoy it? That any relationship - male or female - is inherently sexual because they're hot together or have great chemistry. What kind of juvenile shit is this?

This always bothered me, even back when I actually used Livejournal. I think shipping is fine, to an extent, if you keep it fucking quiet and away from the general fandom at large. But the problem with fujos - and fanfic writers at large - is that they DON'T want that. They want everyone to be forced to see it because they crave attention above everything else. They make up excuses and cheer when someone gets in "on their ship", but the reality is, they want everyone to be forced to partake in praising them and commenting to them because it gets their egos off.

You don't like Legolas x Gimli? Why are you such a fucking bigot and a homophobe! This is them exploring their sexuality!
Bilbo x Thorin? Well, didn't you see the OBVIOUS sexual tension between them? The moment Thorin began to respect Bilbo is the second his dick went hard. No male respects another for nothing!
Aragorn x Boromir? He kissed his forehead! Lovingly! Now THAT'S Representation! Tolkien clearly meant it as a sign of lovers saying goodbye!
Arwen x Eowyn? Well, fuck the men of Middle Earth! Girls should just fuck each other! In fact, toss Galadriel in there too. Can't pass up on that hot sapphic polycule.

And so forth until I take a chainsaw to my neck. They come up with excuses for everything, twisting things around so if you think they're fucking freaks, they can have a chimpout on you about how you're oppressing them for exploring their sexuality and this is the patriarchy's fault, blah blah. When the truth is, no one who respects a franchise devalues it so heavily in this way. It's the equivalent of telling everyone you're a superfan of a band and then sending them death threats when they don't behave like the barbie dolls in your head. It doesn't make you a fan at all, it just shows you're mentally ill and need to go outside and be shunned from the community at large until you can act appropriately.

But we've come to an age where shitty AO3 writers think getting thousands of hits and kudos on their fics means their petty, coomer worldview is valid, and they'll write these articles to keep creaming their panties to. I'm just glad Tolkien - Christopher and his Father - aren't alive to see this shit.
 
@Slap47 You're absolutely right about Faramir and Denethor being done dirty in the films. It's one of my biggest peeves about the Jackson adaptation.
They punked Faramir. The whole point of Faramir was as a counterpoint to Boromir, showing that your lineage doesn't dictate your "quality", which is a theme directly tied to Aragorn and his own self-doubt regarding the failure of his bloodline.
 

Interesting video on Tolkien and racism. He argues that there is racism, but not in a woketard way.

They punked Faramir. The whole point of Faramir was as a counterpoint to Boromir, showing that your lineage doesn't dictate your "quality", which is a theme directly tied to Aragorn and his own self-doubt regarding the failure of his bloodline.
Both were men of high quality. Boromir was just playing the role of King (a role not meant for him), while Faramir was the ideal Steward.

The drama is that Dennethor (somewhat) aspired to have the line of Stewards become royal, and saw in Boromir somebody worthy to transform his lineage. The line of Kings was great warriors with haughty personalities who could cut down dozens of people. The line of Stewards were perceptive administrators. In a sad way, he Dennethor saw himself in Faramir and despised it. The films make Boromir far more kind, but in the books he was more a haughty and prideful person.

Well, thats how I saw it at least.

But we've come to an age where shitty AO3 writers think getting thousands of hits and kudos on their fics means their petty, coomer worldview is valid, and they'll write these articles to keep creaming their panties to. I'm just glad Tolkien - Christopher and his Father - aren't alive to see this shit.
I actually see this problem as worse than you say. Society hates the idea of genuine male friendships and sentimentality.

Traditional conservatives: Lol gay
Progressive wokesters: Yay! gay

Bromance struggles in this dark timeline.

Writing slow isn't a bad thing, Tolkien took what a decade plus to write the LOTR and never finished the Silmarillion, but yeah GRRM has no excuse.
I don't care how long it takes for a book to be written, as long as its good.

I also have no interest in GRRM. The Hobbit and LoTR did just fine without regular updates on the main characters shitting and jerking off habits.
 
I actually see this problem as worse than you say. Society hates the idea of genuine male friendships and sentimentality.

Traditional conservatives: Lol gay
Progressive wokesters: Yay! gay

Bromance struggles in this dark timeline.
Yeah. Yeah.... (:_(

The thing is, I never cared what the degenerate part of the fandom did when the LOTR movies first came out because it was confined to Deviantart (lol) and Livejournal. I never had to see what female coomers were getting all hot and bothered about when it came to the characters and everyone just rolled their eyes at them anyways. Now, these fujos are pushing to be recognized as special for their "ships" being legitimate and we ALL have to be apart of this now. It's frustrating.

It hit the Witcher pretty bad since the terrible TV show came out and it makes it hard to enjoy your franchises when looking up anything becomes a game of russian roulette. Am I going to find some nice fanart or fanmade merchandise that makes me appreciate the series? Or terribly drawn images from a "queer folx" who doesn't understand male friendships because she's a pornsick coomer. Why the insistence that men need to be more feminine, but when they are, they're gay? Is it THAT hard to divorce yourself of a modern mindset - and a female one - in order to understand the complexity of men?

Oh wait. Of course it is. Because acknowledging men and women are different is sexist and transphobic or some shit. Better to continue to write horrible fanfiction that enforces your twisted mindset than ever challenge it. Fml.

I also have no interest in GRRM. The Hobbit and LoTR did just fine without regular updates on the main characters shitting and jerking off habits.

You can really tell the difference between the two, not just because Tolkien came first, but it's pretty obvious Tolkien has studied English Literature for a fuckton of time. Whereas GRRM mainly seemed to hone his skill in short pop stories and soap operas. Tolkien has a mastery unlike we've ever seen and he used his love of etymology and knowledge of oral storytelling to create a world that feels old, timeless, and real. And ASOIAF, I'll say... isn't timeless. At least not to me.

While GRRM has some great chapters, when you step back and look at ASOIAF overall, it's pretty obvious it's written like a television script. The cliffhangers, the details of food (and sex), the betrayals and shocks. You're reading a movie, basically, which is what a lot of modern fantasy writers now seem to do. Every battle is detailed and you read how people's swords met down to every stroke they make. Or how floppy their dicks are when they get ready to bed a woman.

When you jump back to Tolkien and it's like "Yeah, the Rohan killed those orcs. There's the bodies." You get some detail, but the point isn't the battle. The battle is the fluff. The point is the journey and the characters taking you on it. Here's the dead marshes - this is what they are! - And you're out of it within the chapter and onto other places.

And while I do like both writers for their own points, Tolkien's works are always going to lovingly surpass GRRM because they feel a lot more satisfying and structured to give you everything you want out of a story. Heroism, brotherhood, romance, villains, mythical creatures, epic lands, etc. You know at the end you'll feel renewed with wonder, and I personally find that lacking in GRRM's works because he focuses too much on the 'grit' and not enough on telling a good story. Enough with the subversion of tropes. Make me care about the story you're taking me on otherwise your book is going to the bottom of the Read pile.

Like, ASOIAF isn't terrible. It's better than a lot of things, but it's like cooking a box of dried macaroni on a Wednesday night with a bit of "truffle oil". Yeah, it's good, but it's nothing like the holiday feast where your Grandma spent hours basting that ham and it's accompanied by dessert, drinks, po-tay-toes, and company that is happy to see you.
 
Yeah. Yeah.... (:_(

The thing is, I never cared what the degenerate part of the fandom did when the LOTR movies first came out because it was confined to Deviantart (lol) and Livejournal. I never had to see what female coomers were getting all hot and bothered about when it came to the characters and everyone just rolled their eyes at them anyways. Now, these fujos are pushing to be recognized as special for their "ships" being legitimate and we ALL have to be apart of this now. It's frustrating.

It hit the Witcher pretty bad since the terrible TV show came out and it makes it hard to enjoy your franchises when looking up anything becomes a game of russian roulette. Am I going to find some nice fanart or fanmade merchandise that makes me appreciate the series? Or terribly drawn images from a "queer folx" who doesn't understand male friendships because she's a pornsick coomer. Why the insistence that men need to be more feminine, but when they are, they're gay? Is it THAT hard to divorce yourself of a modern mindset - and a female one - in order to understand the complexity of men?

Oh wait. Of course it is. Because acknowledging men and women are different is sexist and transphobic or some shit. Better to continue to write horrible fanfiction that enforces your twisted mindset than ever challenge it. Fml.



You can really tell the difference between the two, not just because Tolkien came first, but it's pretty obvious Tolkien has studied English Literature for a fuckton of time. Whereas GRRM mainly seemed to hone his skill in short pop stories and soap operas. Tolkien has a mastery unlike we've ever seen and he used his love of etymology and knowledge of oral storytelling to create a world that feels old, timeless, and real. And ASOIAF, I'll say... isn't timeless. At least not to me.

While GRRM has some great chapters, when you step back and look at ASOIAF overall, it's pretty obvious it's written like a television script. The cliffhangers, the details of food (and sex), the betrayals and shocks. You're reading a movie, basically, which is what a lot of modern fantasy writers now seem to do. Every battle is detailed and you read how people's swords met down to every stroke they make. Or how floppy their dicks are when they get ready to bed a woman.

When you jump back to Tolkien and it's like "Yeah, the Rohan killed those orcs. There's the bodies." You get some detail, but the point isn't the battle. The battle is the fluff. The point is the journey and the characters taking you on it. Here's the dead marshes - this is what they are! - And you're out of it within the chapter and onto other places.

And while I do like both writers for their own points, Tolkien's works are always going to lovingly surpass GRRM because they feel a lot more satisfying and structured to give you everything you want out of a story. Heroism, brotherhood, romance, villains, mythical creatures, epic lands, etc. You know at the end you'll feel renewed with wonder, and I personally find that lacking in GRRM's works because he focuses too much on the 'grit' and not enough on telling a good story. Enough with the subversion of tropes. Make me care about the story you're taking me on otherwise your book is going to the bottom of the Read pile.

Like, ASOIAF isn't terrible. It's better than a lot of things, but it's like cooking a box of dried macaroni on a Wednesday night with a bit of "truffle oil". Yeah, it's good, but it's nothing like the holiday feast where your Grandma spent hours basting that ham and it's accompanied by dessert, drinks, po-tay-toes, and company that is happy to see you.

I forget which author I spoke with made this point, but the breakdown between Tolkien and Martin is especially striking when you remember background... his observation stuck with me.

Specifically that Tolkien was a blooded WWI vet, and Martin was a draft dodger.

Think of all the other cynical WWI era writers. Tolkien fought at the Somme for crying out loud, his work should be bleak as hell.

Instead, he writes of hope, beauty, good triumphing over evil, of brotherhood and courage in the face of despair and darkness. And he does so with a level of love and detail that no other author has ever matched.

Martin meanwhile has probably never even raised a fist in anger, has lived a pretty charmed life... and his worlds are hopeless and dark. Noble men die violent pointless deaths, the bad guys proper and win, and most of the heroes who live get betrayed, deformed or raped, usually a combination of the three... all with a zombie apocalypse on the horizon.

I thought it was a facinating observation myself.
 
The wokies have wanted to wreck LOTR and Tolkien for a while now.
[...]
They can't beat Tolkien, and they sure as shit can't outwrite him. So they want to destroy him.
I've said it before and I'll say it again.
These people cannot create, only imitate in mockery.
Like remember that one dude who kept disrespecting Tolkien, calling him "an old WWI dude that's outdated" and in his hubris said his work would be better because it would be modern and not "outdated"?
Well where is he now? He is forgotten, in the now outdated while Tolkien remains timeless.

This also applies to Moorcock a bit since he dismissed in his essay of "Epic Pooh" and is now barley remembered by anyone except for enthusiasts of old science fiction and fantasy.
 
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