Infected Touhou Community

[Jason_Cruiser]

I just finished the demo on normal, and I think this game as the potential to be LOLK tier. The patterns are very unique, but I don't think the balancing is all that good. Reimu is kinda trash in the demo, she takes way too long to kill those Pyramid UFO enemies that can appear out of nowhere and can really fuck you over in some of the hard spell cards. I'm not a fan of how conservative the game is with power-up items. You lose about 1/4th of your power with death, yet capturing a spell card, give you like half of what it does in the other games(In my 1cc attempt I was at like 3.00 power for most of stage 2 and 3).

I really enjoyed the new weapon system though, it reminded me of a lot of classic shmups of the 80s with how much choice you had, my personal favorites were the Shintoism wand(giant bullet destroying orb that goes up the screen.) with reimu and the imperishable moon(temporary shield that reflects enemy attacks back at them) with marisa.

It took like it took the western community less than a day before they black-washed the egyptian girl (EDIT: attachment won't work; replaced with link instead. ).

https://www.reddit.com/r/touhou/comments/1kh0vfo/my_first_fanarts_of_the_new_touhou_20_characters/

 

[Giga Troll]

Looks like there is a new drama starting.
View attachment 7322266

ZUN seems to have used some AI-generated backgrounds in the new game.

Spoiler: AI slop

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While it is probably just ZUN being a boomer and grabbing the first stock image without double-checking, the anti-AI crowd is pissed. The fact that he had criticised the use of genAI not so long ago makes it even spicier.

Adding onto this, Touhou 20's Steam page has been released, and it seems that it has indeed been confirmed that generative AI will be in use for spell card backgrounds.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3671710/Touhou_Kinjoukyou__Fossilized_Wonders/

This seems to be generating a stir among some of the usual suspects.

 

[Tenshi Eating A Corn Dog!]

Adding onto this, Touhou 20's Steam page has been released, and it seems that it has indeed been confirmed that generative AI will be in use for spell card backgrounds.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/3671710/Touhou_Kinjoukyou__Fossilized_Wonders/

View attachment 7342722

This seems to be generating a stir among some of the usual suspects.

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I do think it's funny he went from having games about AI (17 and 19, though those games deal with characters that represent more Sky Net style AI than generative algorithms) to not caring. Considering this game looks like it'll be better than both those, I really don't care either. Especially because it's some backgrounds that pop-up for a few seconds.

 

[1994 Honda Civic]

It's quite fascinating just how controversial this has proven to be with the non-Japanese parts of the fanbase.

For a few days, you had some people who are normally anti-AI on everything and others who didn't mind it but once ZUN enters the equation, the foundation becomes shaky because the funny 2hu game now makes use of it. Really, it didn't have to become this much of a big deal as the people who were complaining about AI utilization here come off like those who thought that Photoshop was "ruining" art back in the day.

Now that we have a 100% confirmation of this thanks to Valve's requirement of transparency, things are going to settle down for a bit thankfully. There's still the question of how much this destroys the doujin spirit and all that jazz but if you were to ask me, this just seems like an evolution of him using stock assets to create and bring new and fresh ideas to the forefront.

And because we know that doujin is all about taking inspiration from outside things and creating something out of it, wouldn't tools like stock assets and AI count as continuing the underground creation scene if it's done for the purpose of efficency? Just like how Photoshop can do things that traditional methods wished it could?

There's even a basis to my claims since Richard, in his thread talking about the game, its usage of AI, and what he believes ZUN truly thinks of the concept, clears out some of the fog in this new revelation:

Spoiler: What it means to create.

Now that Touhou 20 is out on Steam and we have confirmation that the background does indeed use AI generated images, it's time to talk about Touhou backgrounds, the GTP drunk stream, as well as ZUN's stance on AI. A thread.

Soon after the release of the Touhou 20 demo, there were questions if the backgrounds featured in the game were generated by AI, as well as discussion on the drunk stream ZUN had last December where they also discussed AI.

Since the discussion was not archived and all we had was undetailed descriptions from a blog, I took the liberty of having someone ask around for more information regarding the stream, including the original writer of the blog itself, who has since updated the post.


We managed to get some information in regards as how ZUN uses ChatGPT, how he generated the background for the poster, what sort of AI he uses and why.In regards to his ChatGPT usage, it seems to be the same type of use he mentioned in a SCoOW interview, not using it for art.


For the background in the poster for the event if you look closely at the fractal patterns behind Reimu, the patterns are not consistent. It appears to have been created using either Photoshop or Adobe Firefly.

As for why he decided to use AI for that, it appears that it's because Adobe Firefly is (supposedly) trained using only their library of stock image and public domain materials, making it simply another source of stock image to draw from.



It is well documented that Touhou backgrounds make extensive usage of royalty free stock images, whether from reference books, asset packs, Wikiedia, or even Deviant Art.

https://nrr08.com/background.html#th07_04

https://ohgosho.ehoh.net/index.htm

https://kiribumekki50.wixsite.com/th-hsifs

https://kiribumekki50.wixsite.com/wbawc

So since he already uses stock image he didn't make himself for the background, Adobe Firefly provides him with a quick way to get illustrations for backgrounds without needing to spend too much time searching all over the internet.

As for ZUN's stance on AI. Personally, I don't believe his stance is "AI is abhorrent", but it's not "AI is the future", either. It's simply that "AI is not a creative tool, but one for economy and efficiency".
Whether you think this makes his usage ok, that is up to you. I think it's ok if you're upset/disappointed and wish to no longer support the series/ZUN. But I also think it's ok if you're not bothered by it, as well. I don't think either reaction makes you more or less of a fan.

I had actually gathered most of the info from this thread since a few days ago, but I kept wondering if it was a good idea to discuss it at all, or if it would've been pouring gasoline into a fire. I was very much worried that people might turn to use my thread to harass others.

My hope is that everyone allows each other to process the entire thing in their own way, without needing to interfere or dictate how they're supposed to feel or what conclusion they should arrive to.

I wish I could add more info regarding the difference between the perception and concerns of AI, as well as the presence or lack thereof of "AI techbros" has influenced the discussion on AI, but I do not think I have enough ability to do that here.

That said, I hope you enjoyed reading this thread. Thank you. End of thread.

 

[Baraadmirer]

The newhus are pretty goofy so far.

Spoiler: Touhou 20 Demo Newhus

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Chirizaku Ubame: stage 1 boss and queen of the mountain hags (IE: Nemuno from HSiFS). Really old and strong; punches tengu if they intrude. Strange for a Stage 1 fight to be so strong. Also looks like that meme with a gnome getting ready to fight.
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Houjuu Chimi: a really old unknown creature from the time before yokai. Is closer to a spirit or a god and can control rivers or something. She can only live in secluded places. Her surname is the same as Nue's and since they're both old and unknown people think they're related.
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Michigami Nareko: a dosojin, which is a type of god that was usually represented by a block of stone. Is not the protector of the pyramid from outsiders, but is there to keep whatever is inside of it sealed within. Has gone kinda loopy and larps as a sphinx by asking riddles and taking on the role of the pyramid's bouncer. Seems like a fan favorite.

The music is pretty good, the stages are fun, and the shot type stuff allows over 5,000 combinations. It's also LoLK levels of difficult. People are saying it's the best mainline Touhou in a decade (barring LoLK itself). Also speculations that it'll be a big turning point in the story considering the strength of the early stage characters, only having Reimu and Marisa, all the references to past games, etc. I'm looking forward to the full thing.

Man, this brings back so many memories of the fangame Hollow Song of Birds.

 

[Federal Intelligence]

He isn't going to do shit about the AI, because ZUN doesn't give a shit about his Western fanbase, the ones that are mostly complaining about this.

 

[anliteralidiot]

As long as zun keeps doing his thing, he can do no wrong.

 

[Book Thief]

I guarantee 95% of the people complaining about this were just gonna make a donation to the Moriya Shrine anyways, so this changes nothing, really.

 

[1994 Honda Civic]

I have a little late of a report to show up with.

It seems like Ruw, the main manager for all things PR, copyright, and otherwise related for ZUN, went on another DMCA spree regarding game soundtracks in the past few days. As per mentioned on the current 4chan thread on one of the bulletin points.

Channels like Kafuu Hearn, Wearr, and such were once again targets for holding onto uploads and reuploads of official music. Some remixes and prediction tracks from small musicians playing around with the soundfonts also got hit with the claims, so they say.

Spoiler: DMCAs

Sorry about the ant size images, this is all I got from the Moriya page.




Even Japan (unsurprisingly) is not safe:

Though to be fair, Ruw did warn us that he didn't appreciate anything that can misrepresent the series.

Spoiler: Quotes

Nishikawa: ZUN's tweet seems to be half angry, so I think it's time to stop making jokes about new Touhou April Fools' Day games.

Well, it's sad that young people can't play the games we used to play with in our 20s, but times have changed. I guess it's now too strict on the internet (Twitter) to tell lies that can only be found out by clicking on the link.

Ruw: In the first place, it violates the guidelines prohibiting "content that may lead people to mistake it for official Touhou Project content"...

It also does check out since it did say something about people "mistaking" fan content as official but how exactly does this apply in a case scenario like this?


One account states that making use of the unpacked files within the game's directory and officially released images on the news website is all it took. Some of the users had a little objection because of it.


(A)

This is one way of looking at the issue but it does run into the question of how much one should use from the games to make their Touhou themed schmup or figher. Spaztron does make a mention of this on a previous blog he wrote. Now as for the guidelines sake, I'm not so sure how enforceable this would be.


On the other aisle, Richard explains the issue of uploading both official and fan-made tracks, how come it was never permitted, and why the DMCAs started to ramp up after 2018. He dives into the main distribution channel and its purpose, as they are responsible in providing a few outlets for the public's access to pay and listen to the OSTs of the games and all fan-made media present in the database.

Spoiler: Unrolled post

I thought it would be a good idea to elaborate on Youtube uploads of Touhou songs from the games and from Touhou circles, how it was actually never allowed to begin with, and why they've only started taking it down in the last 5-6 years. A thread.

There's a prevalent idea among the English speaking fandom that Touhou music is free to upload to Youtube and other video/music streaming sites with no issues. This idea is so prevalent that whenever a channel finds themselves being terminated, there's always someone surprised.

It doesn't help that up until around 2019~ish, Team Shanghai Alice had never tried to DMCA, copyright strike, or takedown any of the multiple uploads of the games' soundtracks, further propagating the idea that it's alright to put them up on Youtube. This changed with TDMD.

TDMD, Touhou Doujin Music Distribution, is an entity that aims to help distribute Touhou music digitally, whether it's through digital downloads, or streaming. Though they started in 2018, it wasn't until 2019 that they partnered with Rightsscale, a music distribution company.

With Rightsscale now involved, both Touhou circles and Team Shanghai Alice were now able to use Youtube's content ID in a large scale. As a result of this, many Touhou videos on youtube were ContentID'd during 2019-2020. Though, there were some issues.

Since the Youtube content ID was done in large scale and semi-automated, there were a lot of false positives. Most notably, Midi arrangements and gameplay videos. Especially gameplay videos.

It's perhaps due to this, that they've scaled back on the use of automated ContentID, and now mostly do manual takedowns. So now, any Touhou music upload from 2020 onwards are only up due TSA not having taken the steps to have them taken down yet.

This also applies to all of the older uploads that are still around on Youtube. It is not the case that those older ones are fine and the newer ones are off limits. None of those uploads were allowed or OK to begin with. They simply haven't been taken down.

That said, with the advent of TDMD, we now also have Touhou arrangements and available on official channels, uploaded with the permissions and blessings of the original people who made the songs.


@shiroemons even keeps a website that allows people to easily look up the songs that each circle have up on streaming sites. Clicking the albums and the songs will also direct you to the songs. Although, the site is in Japanese. music.touhou-search.com/

Even the games' OSTs are available on streaming sites. Though, TDMD is pretty slow to add the OSTs of the recent games, as 18.5 and 19 have yet to be put up. Additionally, for some reason Only TJD is up on Youtube Music.

While it's not perfect and TDMD itself seems to be too short-staffed to handle everything, they are making an attempt to make Touhou music more digitally accessible, this time in a way that's in accordance with the guidelines and the circles' wishes.

Before I close out this thread, I want to emphasize something. I'd like to remind everyone to not harass anyone if they had any misconceptions of the situation due to lacking information or context. A lot of this information is in Japanese, after all.

Previously, I QRT'd a user on the other site who made a post on the Touhou 20 OST Youtube takedown situation, only to inadvertently cause people to harass that user. My posts are meant to provide information and context. Not to justify harassment.

While I've taken steps in the past to avoid accidentally sending hate anyone's way, I did not take enough measures yesterday, and that's why I opted to delete the original QRT. In any case, do be nice with each other. Thank you for reading. End of thread.

Now for me personally, it's about sailing the seven seas for my music. There's no honesty in the business and for this reason, why should anyone now care about the integrity of creation if the franchise's own creator didn't give any fucks from the beginning? You may as well enjoy the ride while it's still in operation!

 

[A Hot Potato]

I bought a deka fumo how much of a faggot does that make me?

 

[Colress]

Man, this brings back so many memories of the fangame Hollow Song of Birds.

this. hsob is probably my favorite fangame. others upthread, if you havent played it, go play it

 

[jray4559]

It seems like Ruw, the main manager for all things PR, copyright, and otherwise related for ZUN, went on another DMCA spree regarding game soundtracks in the past few days.

This seems like such a Nintendo thing to do, that's what the recent kerfuffles are reminding me of. I get it, there's official ways to get the soundtrack that gives the creator money and allowing free uploads by random people on YouTube takes away from that, there is an argument to be made there but, honestly, you've let the leash out for years in regards to Touhou proliferating outside official channels, and only now, after this long, you're gonna try and pull the leash back? Not gonna work. Nintendo has been digging their heels trying to pull the leash back for over a decade at this point on their properties, and you can see how well that's gone for them (not well). You've made the bed real damn nice by being lax, and now you've gotta lie in it.

There are many people who like Touhou, but at this point it's not the forefront of cult hits anymore. Gacha games have replaced its fantastical girl-laden game niche that it used to be basically the only game in town in, over in Japan, and to a lesser extent in the West. There's still some hold with the terminally online autismo community, sure, but it could very very easily fall out of the quirky internet consciousness altogether and be replaced with the other flavors of the month. Those kinds of fanbases don't stay around for anything that you do, they stay around for the community vibes that your work happens to create. Poison the vibes, the community starts wilting fast, and having an AI controversy plus taking down YouTube music uploads right now (the entry point for a lot of people's fandom and just a general cornerstone of the experience) is basically anthrax in this case.

Touhou is only gonna go down in relevance from here. It's been losing steam for probably close to a decade now, at this point, and now ZUN choosing to take a page straight out of the out-of-touch Japanese management playbook is ensuring the slow decay of the whole operation. Touhou is the closest thing that indie video games have to The Simpsons: a unique series that once had the zeitgeist of the unusual in their hands but now is honestly turning into that show that just chugs on forever even though it doesn't really have that touch anymore.

I don't hate the series or ZUN, to be clear, but it just is how it is, it's almost disappointing to watch. Like watching a band whose members have gotten so old that they obviously aren't the same, but they still try and perform like they were in their prime. Or watching the last year of a long-time great QB in football when Father Time finally catches up with them and takes away their skill. And Father Time has caught up with ZUN and the beloved Touhou Project the exact same way.

-----------------

(despite my little sperg, though, I still am in awe about the series. It's still a intricate work of art even if I haven't found the more recent stuff that interesting. The world is fun to play around with in the mind, which is rare for me to feel, and for that I can't not praise him. Hopefully, whenever he does decide to walk away from the series, it goes out with a bang. It deserves a good show to end on for all it's done for internet culture and all the people touched by it.)

 

[GratsTheat783]

ZUN choosing to take a page straight out of the out-of-touch Japanese management playbook is ensuring the slow decay of the whole operation

What if he's doing it on purpose to try and make the series a niche thing again?

 

[Ed Special]

What if he's doing it on purpose to try and make the series a niche thing again?

I am in favor of this, because it will drive out the troons. It's too late to gatekeep them, they've already taken over the temple, so it's time to chase them out with a bull-whip.

 

[Book Thief]

Mima's Disciple and HiroSacredFire also got nuked. So assume that your favorite OST uploader will get nuked in the near future too.

That being said, I don't think this will be the end for Touhou OST uploads. They tried it with the Moriya Shrine, and they're still around. People still upload Nintendo OSTs regularly, even when those got nuked for copyright, so while this is a devastating blow to the community, I think we'll be okay in the long run.

In the mean time, however, I suggest everyone take the word of Randall from XKCD here. I've already received Sanae's blessing in this regard, so I can assure you that her miracles are reliable.

 

[Red Dragon]

If OST uploaders get taken down, there are torrents. If torrents dry up, there's peer-to-peer (like Soulseek). If PtP dries up, to IRC I go. By that time, a new batch of uploaders show up.

I've seen this cycle before, there is always another way. Piracy never dies, it only hides until the coast is clear.

There's also the fact that Touhou is bigger than ZUN. Pulling a Nintendo when your creation is not only self-aware, but has left home a long time ago, is stupidity. As much as I like some parts of japanese culture, the "out-of-touch japanese elder CEO" is something that needs to end ASAP. The fools could be an even bigger cultural juggernaut if not for their short sight and refusal to change.

 

[Electromagnetic Radiation]

Alternatively, if you have one of the many Touhou music extractors, you can rip the music yourself and don't need to anticipate the eradication of any foreign sources much to one's dismay. But i suppose it also depends if you really care that much about the OST's and have enough storage for them, depending on which format you keep them as

 

[Colress]

They are also quite literally on spotify if you use that service.

 

[Book Thief]

They are also quite literally on spotify if you use that service.

But is that a DRM-free method that grants you downloads of the MP3s to your device? If not, then see the XKCD comic I linked to above.

 

[IronJuche_Brigade]

I bought a deka fumo how much of a faggot does that make me?

Nothing wrong with it! You’re financially supporting ZUN

Which Fumo have you bought?