Undertale

JokahBaybee said:
nobody here wanna talk about spamtotem?

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thread link: https://arch.b4k.co/vg/thread/358372616/#358378402
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spamton with real ass looking teeth I remember this shit
 
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Warning: this post is mildly autistic, typed it in a bit of a rambling fashion, but I had some thoughts about Toby's games I wanted to articulate.

Been thinking a bit lately about why I like Toby Fox's games, and thinking of the sort of genre they are from in general. And yes, "quirky indie RPG that acts all meta and self aware" is practically a genre at this point, as well as being a popular target of ridicule, especially towards games acting as if the very premise of 4th wall breaking is original or interesting in and of itself. While some of that is just going to boil down to personal taste in the end, I do think there's something there in that criticism of the genre. It's definitely become an "it's been done before" thing. And a lot of indie game devs just do NOT handle the "quirky RPG" or "4th wall breaks" well.

Yet despite that, I still quite like Toby's games in all their meta humor and 4th wall breaking. Sometimes Toby can let a joke drag on for a bit too long, but that's usually balanced out by other well written humor, and the ability to get serious when need be. I'm rambling a bit here, but what I'm wondering is about how come I find his work more enjoyable than others that use similar tropes. It feels to me like he has a certain subtlety in writing that most other creators trying this shtick lack. But I can't quite put my finger on it so I'm wondering if maybe I'm just biased in favor of Toby's work as he was one who popularized this sort of thing in Undertale.

This is just one thing I can think of, but one of the things that annoys me in games trying to be "meta" and "deep" is the "make the player feel like shit for just playing the game" trope. Undertale handles this remarkably well considering, sure the genocide run has tinges of this, but from my perspective it's subtle, not shoved down your throat in a way that becomes obnoxious, Also, it actually makes some sort of narrative sense since. the player is basically established as something that exists in a relevant way to the universe and story, and not just for a gag that has no effect on the plot. Deltarune seems to be leaning even harder in that direction. Also of course, the "bad routes" in these games are entirely up to you to play so it's more a consequence of your actions vs the gravest sin this trope can be, berating the player for doing something that is necessary to progress the story. Toby seems to know to use just enough of the "you, the player, have done a very bad thing" card to make things interesting, without being insufferable about it, an ability that seems completely lacking in other developers who use this trope

I really do hope the writing quality continues through the rest of Deltarune, I wouldn't say chapter 2 was bad, but it was definitely skirting the edge of "overly meme-y", but for a chapter based around going into a computer world, I can forgive that. Also there were plenty of good serious moments. I'm interested to see how/if future chapters compare or contrast in mood to the first two.

TLDR, does anyone else think Toby's works are quantitatively different than many of the other "quirky indy RPG" developers, or do we like him because he's the first who did it well enough so we became fanboys?
 
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Emperor Percival Tachyon said:
Warning: this post is mildly autistic, typed it in a bit of a rambling fashion, but I had some thoughts about Toby's games I wanted to articulate.

Been thinking a bit lately about why I like Toby Fox's games, and thinking of the sort of genre they are from in general. And yes, "quirky indie RPG that acts all meta and self aware" is practically a genre at this point, as well as being a popular target of ridicule, especially towards games acting as if the very premise of 4th wall breaking is original or interesting in and of itself. While some of that is just going to boil down to personal taste in the end, I do think there's something there in that criticism of the genre. It's definitely become an "it's been done before" thing. And a lot of indie game devs just do NOT handle the "quirky RPG" or "4th wall breaks" well.

Yet despite that, I still quite like Toby's games in all their meta humor and 4th wall breaking. Sometimes Toby can let a joke drag on for a bit too long, but that's usually balanced out by other well written humor, and the ability to get serious when need be. I'm rambling a bit here, but what I'm wondering is about how come I find his work more enjoyable than others that use similar tropes. It feels to me like he has a certain subtlety in writing that most other creators trying this shtick lack. But I can't quite put my finger on it so I'm wondering if maybe I'm just biased in favor of Toby's work as he was one who popularized this sort of thing in Undertale.

This is just one thing I can think of, but one of the things that annoys me in games trying to be "meta" and "deep" is the "make the player feel like shit for just playing the game" trope. Undertale handles this remarkably well considering, sure the genocide run has tinges of this, but from my perspective it's subtle, not shoved down your throat in a way that becomes obnoxious, Also, it actually makes some sort of narrative sense since. the player is basically established as something that exists in a relevant way to the universe and story, and not just for a gag that has no effect on the plot. Deltarune seems to be leaning even harder in that direction. Also of course, the "bad routes" in these games are entirely up to you to play so it's more a consequence of your actions vs the gravest sin this trope can be, berating the player for doing something that is necessary to progress the story. Toby seems to know to use just enough of the "you, the player, have done a very bad thing" card to make things interesting, without being insufferable about it, an ability that seems completely lacking in other developers who use this trope

I really do hope the writing quality continues through the rest of Deltarune, I wouldn't say chapter 2 was bad, but it was definitely skirting the edge of "overly meme-y", but for a chapter based around going into a computer world, I can forgive that. Also there were plenty of good serious moments. I'm interested to see how/if future chapters compare or contrast in mood to the first two.

TLDR, does anyone else think Toby's works are quantitatively different than many of the other "quirky indy RPG" developers, or do we like him because he's the first who did it well enough so we became fanboys?
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I like Toby's games because they are completely sincere, rarely feel mean spirited and he knows that being meta isn't an excuse not to set up a coherent setting.
UNDERTALE wasn't even much of an RPG all things considered but I still enjoyed the gameplay.
The art was a bit crap in places but it had style where it counted.
The characters were ether good or absolutely insufferable (although one was technically only kinda his fault)
Don't even need to talk about the music, everyone knows that it's excellent.

I think that UNDERTALE is a really good example of games with serious flaws still being very enjoyable.

One thing I wonder however is whether I'd have given UNDERTALE the time of day if I didn't fall in love with the demo (Which was very different tonally to the rest of the game except the end) ...although if they changed the stuff that made me like it it would have significant other effects on the game so maybe that's a stupid question.
 
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The only good thing about the game is some of its music.

Battle system is a shitty, repetitive, visually barren, and overly simplified "shmup" mini game with no variety.

Story is gay (characters too, both literally and figuratively).

Graphics are lazy and look like some random furry was commissioned from deviantart with strict deadline.

Again though, it does definitely have some pretty good songs. Other minor positives I personally appreciated were its short length, multiple endings, and good controls (the combat was smooth enough for what it was, and it's hard to screw up the rest in an RPG).

I struggle to understand why people like it so much, probably just getting old and also don't have any tolerance for even mild libtard shit. What's more baffling is people ranking it above Earthbound. That's just dumb.
 
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SSj_Ness said:
Graphics are lazy and look like some random furry was commissioned from deviantart with strict deadline.
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Well I would believe he made the graphics like that since he made rom hacks for Earthbound, hence why he made the graphics around 16-bit.. His inspiration is Earthbound so he will try to have a template around it.
 
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What the shit said:
Well I would believe he made the graphics like that since he made rom hacks for Earthbound, hence why he made the graphics around 16-bit.. His inspiration is Earthbound so he will try to have a template around it.
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Main character looks flabby and androgynous (purposefully perhaps, but that's still a negative), and like he's melting/has down syndrome. I can see the Earthbound inspiration but it looks like Ness was eaten by a tranny and passed out its axe wound.

The whole game is lacking in vibrancy and color, unlike Earthbound which felt like it had a lot of life.

Something I didn't mention was that Undertale probably gets points for being "meta" or whatever. That's a neat gimmick but it doesn't go far enough to warrant the praise it receives imo.
 
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SSj_Ness said:
Main character looks flabby and androgynous (purposefully perhaps, but that's still a negative), and like he's melting/has down syndrome. I can see the Earthbound inspiration but it looks like Ness was eaten by a tranny and passed out its axe wound.

The whole game is lacking in vibrancy and color, unlike Earthbound which felt like it had a lot of life.

Something I didn't mention was that Undertale probably gets points for being "meta" or whatever. That's a neat gimmick but it doesn't go far enough to warrant the praise it receives imo.
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In the defense of the graphics, Toby was pretty much designing the game by himself. So he had to make some shortcuts when it came to development.
 
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Nauseated Courgi said:
In the defense of the graphics, Toby was pretty much designing the game by himself. So he had to make some shortcuts when it came to development.
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One-man developers are always amazing to me, even if their games are shit or not my cup of tea. Still, the reality is that the art isn't very good, and I doubt he was under any real deadline so it could've been improved.
 
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Jenova said:
Has anyone executed the schtick as well as Toby Fox? It's been six years since Undertale came out. Maybe I missed it but I didn't think that the bar was set too high. It's strange to me that Toby Fox probably has a net worth of over 10 million dollars, Deltarune demo was released 3 years ago. It's just fucking sad. Maybe I should play Mother 3.
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No, I don't think anyone has. It requires a specific amount of dedication and hard work, and most people that I see lately that are indie devs working solo are just fucking grifters looking to make a quick buck.
SSj_Ness said:
One-man developers are always amazing to me, even if their games are shit or not my cup of tea. Still, the reality is that the art isn't very good, and I doubt he was under any real deadline so it could've been improved.
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I guess it's a matter of taste. The art style works great for me, nice tinge of nostalgia and because the art style is limited it allows the viewer to fill in some blanks themselves.
 
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Dumpster dived waifu said:
No, I don't think anyone has. It requires a specific amount of dedication and hard work, and most people that I see lately that are indie devs working solo are just fucking grifters looking to make a quick buck.

I guess it's a matter of taste. The art style works great for me, nice tinge of nostalgia and because the art style is limited it allows the viewer to fill in some blanks themselves.
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Fair enough personal interpretation. I don't think it was intentional, or at least well done though.

To autistically dissect this subject a bit more I'll come back to the Earthbound comparisons since they're commonly made. Look at these sprites:

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Can you honestly say Frisk's sprite quality approaches Ness' in any way? I'm not shitting on the idea of purposeful artistic limitations, minimalism can work. But I don't think this character even embodies the spirit of minimalism well--I think it's a gross, lumpy, emo, Simpsons-colored non-binary monkey.

While the lack of detail could be a legitimate artistic decision, I don't think the overall design and sprite quality is. The lack of detail in the shoes, having no accessories (hat, backpack, etc), less color, that kind of stuff is understandable; but the sheer repellant nature of this ghoulish sprite can't be understated. Why is his body structure so uneven? What's with these body proportions...? It just doesn't look right, the design is bad.

I'd even argue that Ninten from Earthbound Beginnings looks superior and (through necessity, not choice) does better with a minimalist approach.
 
SSj_Ness said:
Can you honestly say Frisk's sprite quality approaches Ness' in any way? I'm not shitting on the idea of purposeful artistic limitations, minimalism can work. But I don't think this character even embodies the spirit of minimalism well--I think it's a gross, lumpy, emo, Simpsons-colored non-binary monkey.

While the lack of detail could be a legitimate artistic decision, I don't think the overall design and sprite quality is. The lack of detail in the shoes, having no accessories (hat, backpack, etc), less color, that kind of stuff is understandable; but the sheer repellant nature of this ghoulish sprite can't be understated. Why is his body structure so uneven? What's with these body proportions...? It just doesn't look right, the design is bad.

I'd even argue that Ninten from Earthbound Beginnings looks superior and (through necessity, not choice) does better with a minimalist approach.
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I took the art direction as though it's intentionally supposed to look thrown together in MS Paint. Just look at the save point:
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About time someone did a proper dub of this advert.

And it also looks like most people have moved onto the next FOTM game so things've gotten quieter. I still see people making content for Spamton and the Addisons but I'm a little sad I don't see as much content for characters like Queen or Berdly.
 
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