- Joined
- Mar 4, 2019
Undertale
- Thread starter Len Kagamoney
- Start date
- Joined
- Apr 2, 2019
Your underselling it a bit, the whole rape allegory is something you have to force Kris to go out of his way to do.
I think I mostly agree with his criticisms about Chapter 3. But I liked it, although I'll be the first to admit I'm biased there since it reminded me of Super Paper Mario and I loved that game as a kid. I didn’t find the flashbacks that jarring, and Tenna should have died.
The OP is still overly attached to the fanfiction he wrote in his head about Deltarune Chapter 1, rather than what was actually in the game when he had 1/7th of the content available to him. Heck Susie’s entire character arc in act 1 is about her learning to not attack first all the time. She literally spells out she does this because she's afraid when you K. Round, and she has an incredibly sweet relationship with Lancer. Her mean girl act is literally all a front and the second she’s out of the Dark World she’s extremely nice to Kris, even before that in the light world she's obviously just projecting her own issues onto Kris and making paranoid assumptions. You can say it's unbelievable she made a heel-face turn so fast. I'd say her arc in chapter one was good enough and I'd rather not have her go through the same character arc in chapter 2. It isn't even a Chapter 2 problem as it happens in Chapter 1. Although I agree I don't get why everyone falls in love with her.
For the Knight I actually liked The Knight being a mute and agree the game really needed 60fps. The fight really does feel like its to the death, and I think the later recontextualization of it basically being Kris and The Knight putting on a show makes it even better. That explains why it didn’t try to kill you, and why Kris didn't use his soul to Buff Susie and Ralsei's abilities, and its a really cool narrative twist that makes the story more interesting and gives Kris a lot of depth.
I have way more complaints about what he said regarding chapter 4
I didn’t actually realize Kris had a smartphone, my brain just blocked it out. I half-agree that Berdly should have died, since I like Kris having the agency to try to stop you. Also I think the OP's kind of oblivious, there’s a lot of sexual tension and euphemisms in the Snowgrave Route of Chapter 2. Basically all of Spamton’s dialogue, all of Noelle's interactions with the environment, forcing a ring onto her finger that allows you to control her, but I think the story works well both with literal or allegorical rape. For the sudden turn that it takes, I actually liked it, it's supposed to be your very last chance before committing to being the ultimate evil. I didn’t like the cutscene with Susie, but given that it’s the literal creepypastsa game route I expected something more or less like it eventually.
I saw that he didn’t mention the foreshadowing with Asgore in Noelle’s house. A few other people I saw missed it as well, I wonder if Toby should have made that mandatory?
I agree that the first sanctuary should have had more visually distinct areas. But I can’t believe the OP missed Alvin being Gerson’s son, he calls them brothers. More than half of his interactions with Susie are kind of tinted by the fact that Gerson feels bad for failing Alvin. Gerson knows his time is already up, and wants to use that time to help make an impact on the lives of the heroes. Who are both important to the prophecy he dislikes and basically admits to trying to manipulate, and more importantly to him, children. Also Gerson gets his Hero of Justice moment in the first sanctuary, and it's incredibly sign posted so I don’t get the complaint there. By the time he returns the viewer is already prepped for his thing.
I do agree with his complaint about the lack of permanent character deaths, Gerson and Tenna shouldn't have come back.
But I entirely disagree about Jack’s fight, it was fun.
For Susie’s character, I don’t think her being more serious was jarring at all. She literally spells out that before this she wasn’t taking the whole thing seriously and just seeing it as a fun game they could play. Now that Undyne is captured and gonna get brought back to life anyways, she’s acting more seriously.
I don’t think Ralsei was retconned. His character here makes sense with him previously. He starts off naive, only knowing the prophecy from the legend and having no experience, hoping things will turn out well. He starts to become his own person in chapter 2. Becomes even more comfortable in chapter 3, only for the Knight to then terrify him and he becomes convinced he has to play his role to the best of his ability, trying to entirely forego the self he's built up. He obviously blames himself for what happened, which would be more convincing if Tenna actually died, and I’m surprised Toby actually held back on him straight up explaining what Ralsei felt to the camera even more than he already did.
I don’t get the complaint about the blood, Monsters just bleed in Deltarune. Although In retrospect with the cut Susie bleeding sprites from Chapter 2, I think that should happened then. It being even more of a non-reveal would have been better since all Monsters bleeding in DR affects is Sans theorizing.
I liked the Titan fight but agree that bringing Gerson back was probably the wrong move. Ralsei should have come up with the idea, or sourced the idea from the prophecy. Also Gerson being a secret boss was built up, it's literally his entire thing when you first meet him. The light switch is too heavy for Kris or Susie to use, but Gerson does it easily, then he cakewalks all of the next battles as well. You’re talking to him through the entire First Sanctuary. Basically everything that comes out of his mouth is both foreshadowing and develops his character.
I wonder if the OP is remembering Jevil wrong? Jevil was basically out of nowhere, and the basement was out of the way. Spamton and Gerson are the only ones who were so heavily signposted.
More about Gerson, even in Undertale he was Undyne’s teacher and one of the characters that had enough meta knowledge to use game mechanics to the point you can’t ever hurt him. Given that Deltarune is made to be played after Undertale, I don't think it's unexpected for the player to at least know Gerson was Undyne's teacher. Even then if the player hasn't played Undertale before Gerson is still heavily signposted.
Also the fight against the statue was worse, the light really ruins the sound gimmick, turning it into a game of simons says. I prefer the eight directions for Gerson’s proper fight, and really only Gerson's turtle shell attack was a gratuitousness refrence. I disagree, with Gerson having nothing to do with the themes of the game, he’s basically always talking in thinly veiled metaphors about fate, freedom, prophecy, and sometimes not even metaphor just literally talking about them.
Only Spamton was talking about breaking free from strings anyways, all of the four characters that take on the role of a tertiary antagonist who talk to the Knight and/or the voice on the phone have different reactions.
The OP is still overly attached to the fanfiction he wrote in his head about Deltarune Chapter 1, rather than what was actually in the game when he had 1/7th of the content available to him. Heck Susie’s entire character arc in act 1 is about her learning to not attack first all the time. She literally spells out she does this because she's afraid when you K. Round, and she has an incredibly sweet relationship with Lancer. Her mean girl act is literally all a front and the second she’s out of the Dark World she’s extremely nice to Kris, even before that in the light world she's obviously just projecting her own issues onto Kris and making paranoid assumptions. You can say it's unbelievable she made a heel-face turn so fast. I'd say her arc in chapter one was good enough and I'd rather not have her go through the same character arc in chapter 2. It isn't even a Chapter 2 problem as it happens in Chapter 1. Although I agree I don't get why everyone falls in love with her.
For the Knight I actually liked The Knight being a mute and agree the game really needed 60fps. The fight really does feel like its to the death, and I think the later recontextualization of it basically being Kris and The Knight putting on a show makes it even better. That explains why it didn’t try to kill you, and why Kris didn't use his soul to Buff Susie and Ralsei's abilities, and its a really cool narrative twist that makes the story more interesting and gives Kris a lot of depth.
I have way more complaints about what he said regarding chapter 4
I didn’t actually realize Kris had a smartphone, my brain just blocked it out. I half-agree that Berdly should have died, since I like Kris having the agency to try to stop you. Also I think the OP's kind of oblivious, there’s a lot of sexual tension and euphemisms in the Snowgrave Route of Chapter 2. Basically all of Spamton’s dialogue, all of Noelle's interactions with the environment, forcing a ring onto her finger that allows you to control her, but I think the story works well both with literal or allegorical rape. For the sudden turn that it takes, I actually liked it, it's supposed to be your very last chance before committing to being the ultimate evil. I didn’t like the cutscene with Susie, but given that it’s the literal creepypastsa game route I expected something more or less like it eventually.
I saw that he didn’t mention the foreshadowing with Asgore in Noelle’s house. A few other people I saw missed it as well, I wonder if Toby should have made that mandatory?
I agree that the first sanctuary should have had more visually distinct areas. But I can’t believe the OP missed Alvin being Gerson’s son, he calls them brothers. More than half of his interactions with Susie are kind of tinted by the fact that Gerson feels bad for failing Alvin. Gerson knows his time is already up, and wants to use that time to help make an impact on the lives of the heroes. Who are both important to the prophecy he dislikes and basically admits to trying to manipulate, and more importantly to him, children. Also Gerson gets his Hero of Justice moment in the first sanctuary, and it's incredibly sign posted so I don’t get the complaint there. By the time he returns the viewer is already prepped for his thing.
I do agree with his complaint about the lack of permanent character deaths, Gerson and Tenna shouldn't have come back.
But I entirely disagree about Jack’s fight, it was fun.
For Susie’s character, I don’t think her being more serious was jarring at all. She literally spells out that before this she wasn’t taking the whole thing seriously and just seeing it as a fun game they could play. Now that Undyne is captured and gonna get brought back to life anyways, she’s acting more seriously.
I don’t think Ralsei was retconned. His character here makes sense with him previously. He starts off naive, only knowing the prophecy from the legend and having no experience, hoping things will turn out well. He starts to become his own person in chapter 2. Becomes even more comfortable in chapter 3, only for the Knight to then terrify him and he becomes convinced he has to play his role to the best of his ability, trying to entirely forego the self he's built up. He obviously blames himself for what happened, which would be more convincing if Tenna actually died, and I’m surprised Toby actually held back on him straight up explaining what Ralsei felt to the camera even more than he already did.
I don’t get the complaint about the blood, Monsters just bleed in Deltarune. Although In retrospect with the cut Susie bleeding sprites from Chapter 2, I think that should happened then. It being even more of a non-reveal would have been better since all Monsters bleeding in DR affects is Sans theorizing.
I liked the Titan fight but agree that bringing Gerson back was probably the wrong move. Ralsei should have come up with the idea, or sourced the idea from the prophecy. Also Gerson being a secret boss was built up, it's literally his entire thing when you first meet him. The light switch is too heavy for Kris or Susie to use, but Gerson does it easily, then he cakewalks all of the next battles as well. You’re talking to him through the entire First Sanctuary. Basically everything that comes out of his mouth is both foreshadowing and develops his character.
I wonder if the OP is remembering Jevil wrong? Jevil was basically out of nowhere, and the basement was out of the way. Spamton and Gerson are the only ones who were so heavily signposted.
More about Gerson, even in Undertale he was Undyne’s teacher and one of the characters that had enough meta knowledge to use game mechanics to the point you can’t ever hurt him. Given that Deltarune is made to be played after Undertale, I don't think it's unexpected for the player to at least know Gerson was Undyne's teacher. Even then if the player hasn't played Undertale before Gerson is still heavily signposted.
Also the fight against the statue was worse, the light really ruins the sound gimmick, turning it into a game of simons says. I prefer the eight directions for Gerson’s proper fight, and really only Gerson's turtle shell attack was a gratuitousness refrence. I disagree, with Gerson having nothing to do with the themes of the game, he’s basically always talking in thinly veiled metaphors about fate, freedom, prophecy, and sometimes not even metaphor just literally talking about them.
Only Spamton was talking about breaking free from strings anyways, all of the four characters that take on the role of a tertiary antagonist who talk to the Knight and/or the voice on the phone have different reactions.
- Jevil says that if he has no free will and fate is set, then he'll do whatever he wants. His actions are already justified and in his eyes by understanding this he achieves true freedom.
- Spamton wants to desperately matter. gamed the system, but it all came crashing down when he was cut off and he ended up throwing a fit and getting beat back into his place.
- Ramb, who's not a secret boss but has a similar but less pronounced narrative role to Gerson and Spamton. Accepts his own limitations, he can't change fate but he'll give you the opportunnity to.
- Gerson is already dead, and he's accepted that. He obviously knows a lot, probably even before the Knight gave him a Shadow Crystal. Unlike the other three, he already failed at what he attempted in life and so just wants to do his best to make a positive impact in the world after his death.
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- Joined
- Oct 6, 2016
Someone pointed out something interesting about one of the prophecies...
"LOVE FINDS ITS WAY TO THE GIRL"
Now... We all know what LOVE entails in UNDERTALE, right?
Now... We all know what LOVE entails in UNDERTALE, right?
- Joined
- Apr 16, 2021
I'm just glad I picked up Touhou games between chapter 2 and 3. It's made some of the battles easier.
- Joined
- Jan 8, 2023
To paraphrase James/AVGN: https://youtu.be/R0z4RFDHFQI&t=347
It's almost a YTP with a hip-hop beat in the background, but made by a Alpha generation instead...?
Dorothy
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Mar 30, 2025
Interesting thing about Suzy.
She bleeds.
Monsters don't bleed. She also forgot that monsters turn to dust (Kris doesn't cause he grew up with monsters).
She bleeds.
Monsters don't bleed. She also forgot that monsters turn to dust (Kris doesn't cause he grew up with monsters).
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2019
It's more likely deltarune monsters do bleed if we consider that Sans is likely from Deltarune and bleeds in Undertale. We also know the monsters eat real food in Deltarune which the whole reason they don't bleed in Undertale is because they have to magically conjure ingredients, making them effectively malnourished with magic. As for why Susie forgot, it's possible that things naturally get dusty and she assumed it was just old until she realizes it was a burial capsule.
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2020
The mechanics of the Mike fight is completely different on switch
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2020
That's adorable. Though I have zero clue how they managed to get Susie and Ralsei to follow you to that fight. They wouldn't follow me on PC is it different on console?
What can I say?
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2025
Honestly I understand this one, degenerate to me is a strictly online word and it doesn't really fit with the cast of DR, except for maybe Queen or Roulx, I can totally see them saying that.
- Joined
- Mar 5, 2023
Ah yes, broken glass, definitely not a rape metaphor...
The lone rose still worked better. You really can't imply a horrific corruption of innocence involving a penetration in a girl's bedroom without making it look like rape, no matter how hard you try, why not lean in? There's no good reason to shy away from the implication, rape is a good analogy! Let it happen, don't dumb it up for the sensitive autience! It is a scary and brutal thing, and refusing to acknowledge it makes it harder for people to confront and explore the reality. The sensitivity of the audience shows that they need this. The public has been running from its demons, they're still too scared to have a healthy attitude about something REAL.
- Joined
- Dec 18, 2022
What can I say?
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2025
Yeah I agree the rose thing is dumb, it should have been kept in but honestly I like the broken glass/thorns more, I'm a sucker for that kind of imagery. There's three possible things that are happening here.
1: The rose was a placeholder and this was the intended sprite to be used, but Toby and crew forgot to replace it.
2: The rose wasn't a placeholder, but Toby and crew got cold feet at the end but either didn't remember or couldn't switch it out before release.
3: Toby and crew saw the reaction from the entire internet (/v) about the rose and rushed to make something different instead of just a dot in an attempt to rectify it/save face
Your answer is pretty much entirely dependent on how much you like Toby/have faith in Toby, but even as someone who loves Toby and his work, I'll go for option 2.
1: The rose was a placeholder and this was the intended sprite to be used, but Toby and crew forgot to replace it.
2: The rose wasn't a placeholder, but Toby and crew got cold feet at the end but either didn't remember or couldn't switch it out before release.
3: Toby and crew saw the reaction from the entire internet (/v) about the rose and rushed to make something different instead of just a dot in an attempt to rectify it/save face
Your answer is pretty much entirely dependent on how much you like Toby/have faith in Toby, but even as someone who loves Toby and his work, I'll go for option 2.
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2024
Development time well spent!
I still don't really get why it took Toby so damn long to release this.
With the sort of budget he should be working with, it should be practically effortless to hire a team of competent people to get exactly what he wants done rapidly.
Is it just because he has to hire trannies?
- Joined
- Nov 10, 2021
I wonder if there going to do a backstory for carol where she was sweet and nice until her daughter vanished
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2025
Deltarune fans are the worst kind of pseuds.
They take a perfectly innocent character like Noelle and tarnish her with their deranged fantasies.
The idea that a child needs to look for a "date" is in itself laughable, but the "date" here isn’t just a joke - it’s their sick attempt to justify grooming.
It’s not about "a shy girl coming out of her shell," it’s about projecting their lustful desires onto something that never asked for it.
Reeks of pedo projection.
They take a perfectly innocent character like Noelle and tarnish her with their deranged fantasies.
The idea that a child needs to look for a "date" is in itself laughable, but the "date" here isn’t just a joke - it’s their sick attempt to justify grooming.
It’s not about "a shy girl coming out of her shell," it’s about projecting their lustful desires onto something that never asked for it.
Reeks of pedo projection.
- Joined
- Apr 22, 2025
He's tight with Nintendo now so of course he has to make his game release on their console with some uniqueness to other platforms. I mean shit, you seen the Switch differences in Undertale yeah?
Honestly I'm a little shocked it didn't release on Switch 2 first then a week later on PC
- Joined
- Sep 16, 2018
How does this statement make sense?
Chapter 4 was shitty because... they were aware that chapter 3 was also shitty?
Newcomer 42
kiwifarms.net
- Joined
- Jan 15, 2025
This might explain why he's suddenly censorship-friendly, as I doubt Nintendo would like having a game with too spicy themes for one of their launch entries, but it might a stretch.
Here's a video I found with secrets of chapters 3 and 4. Naturally, spoilers. I can't figure out how you're supposed to learn about this stuff. Does Toby expect lunatics with the game engine editor at hand? The egg bits for example I only got the one from the first chapter, I wasn't aware there would be more.
I also found a video that shows that you can kill the Titan Spawns and get a minor bonus like when you defeat enemies by making them "Lost" with no consequences, likely due to a bug, or because The Titan is a mindless monster hellbent on destruction and therefore killing it is okay. According to the video's description, once you kill the spawns, you get a new score in the stat screen: Enemies slain.
Perhaps you'll be able to do the Genocide experience with the Twisted Sword or something in future chapters.
Perhaps you'll be able to do the Genocide experience with the Twisted Sword or something in future chapters.