Warhammer 40k

[Spilled Spaghett]

I have been perusing the Core Book and there is something that I find really strange. Maybe someone who has an older version can confirm if this is normal or a (dumb) new decision on GW's part. Why are there so many pages dedicated to combat patrols when those either are bad value, sell out immediately or get discontinued and replaced with a new one. Isn't that a total waste of space, or is GW of the opinion that people interested in the hobby will pick up the Core Book first and decide with its help on which army to build.

I will start with assembling and painting my Eldar this weekend. I will try the subassembly method, will probably result in a better paint job.

Combat Patrol is a really good idea that was ruined. Combat Patrol was meant to be like picking up a preconstructed deck of MtG cards, or Pokemon cards. Someone new can buy one box with literally everything you need to play a game, that may not be competitive, but covers the fundamentals of the game and gives you a starting point to build your collection off of. In theory, this is great for both new players to get into games right away with a semi-complete force, and current players who want a low commitment way to test other armies (other than spending $20 on Tabletop Simulator).

The problem is hobbyists don't want a cheap way to test a variety of armies, they want to get the same models they already own in bulk for cheap. That's why everyone insists on calling them value boxes even though they never were or ever intended to be. If you're already invested in the hobby you likely already have a full army, and most of a second or third. You've already been playing full scale games and are accustomed to their complexity. Sure you "could" pick up and play a combat patrol game in maybe an hour, but why would you? If you're going through all the trouble to get together for a game just play 40k.

For new players, Combat Patrols are still a steep price for what's considered an intro army box. Currently they want $168 for a box that doesn't include any rules, no introductory handbook, no paints, no tools, not even a cheap pair of dice. Then you notice that just to get the cutter is $52! (holy shit I had no idea it was that bad.) For another $42 you may as well get the actual starter set that includes two combat patrols, a board and terrain to play on, a set of dice, a cheap measurement stick, an actual handbook to onboard you to the hobby, all the rules you need and...no fucking cutters? Even for $210 you can't fit a pot of blue paint and a cheap brush, but you can in the $65 set? If I was a new player I'd say fuck this whole hobby this is some real bullshit and way too confusing.

 

[p1138]

For new players, Combat Patrols are still a steep price for what's considered an intro army box. Currently they want $168 for a box that doesn't include any rules, no introductory handbook, no paints, no tools, not even a cheap pair of dice. Then you notice that just to get the cutter is $52! (holy shit I had no idea it was that bad.) For another $42 you may as well get the actual starter set that includes two combat patrols, a board and terrain to play on, a set of dice, a cheap measurement stick, an actual handbook to onboard you to the hobby, all the rules you need and...no fucking cutters? Even for $210 you can't fit a pot of blue paint and a cheap brush, but you can in the $65 set? If I was a new player I'd say fuck this whole hobby this is some real bullshit and way too confusing.

Being realistic, that's not a GW specific problem.
Conquest faction starters, $100, no paint, tools, or dice.
Star Wars Legion starters, $70-150(and not always even an available SKU), no paint, tools, or dice(and they use proprietary dice)
Marvel Crisis Protocol core set, $150, no paint or tools
Malifaux, doesn't even have a starter box, it's just their teams at $50, no tools, paint, or cards
Infinity army/starter/collection boxes, $90-$290, no paint, tools, or dice
Bolt Action starter sets/armies, $90-$440(at least the most expensive boxes come with terrain, and a lot of it and a lot of models like the stalingrad set is basically 2 entire armies), no tools, no paint, no dice
Warmachine 2 player starter set, $100(actual faction boxes are $160) and the starter doesn't even include the assembly instructions(you get a QR code), no paint, tools, or dice

GW doesn't feel the need to put the core rules in the box(some of the vendors above do, some don't, sometimes only some boxes) because they're available online and in the app https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/downloads/warhammer-40000/ Army rules being in a codex is a separate pile of stupid. But for all of the auxiliary product required to do anything with the big box of models? Most of GWs competition leaves most stuff out as well.

 

[Spilled Spaghett]

Still, for $210 the intro box doesn't need to have a fold out board, or real hard plastic terrain. The whole core rules are nice but a quickstart sheet is good enough. Even if it's free it's good to have a hard copy print out for new players. The terrain could've been papercraft or some cardboard barricades. I can forgive not including paints and a brush since you want players to get right into the game, but you could at least include some clippers for the priciest intro set. It's not a tool that you can expect the average person to already have, and is required. If Army Painter can make cutters for $15 there's no excuse. Just shut up and eat the loss.

I can accept that Combat Patrol boxes don't all need to be a self contained intro box. The requirements to have a one box solution are much higher than something like yugioh that only needs to give you a paper mat and learn to play guide. But the prices are still too high to be appealing for newer players, and GW shouldn't be advertising these with their other intro boxes. It makes the process more confusing. Having tiers of intro boxes is confusing enough, especially since only the Introductory Set contains the cutters needed to even get the models off the sprue.

 

[p1138]

Still, for $210 the intro box doesn't need to have a fold out board, or real hard plastic terrain. The whole core rules are nice but a quickstart sheet is good enough. Even if it's free it's good to have a hard copy print out for new players. The terrain could've been papercraft or some cardboard barricades. I can forgive not including paints and a brush since you want players to get right into the game, but you could at least include some clippers for the priciest intro set. It's not a tool that you can expect the average person to already have, and is required. If Army Painter can make cutters for $15 there's no excuse. Just shut up and eat the loss.

I can accept that Combat Patrol boxes don't all need to be a self contained intro box. The requirements to have a one box solution are much higher than something like yugioh that only needs to give you a paper mat and learn to play guide. But the prices are still too high to be appealing for newer players, and GW shouldn't be advertising these with their other intro boxes. It makes the process more confusing. Having tiers of intro boxes is confusing enough, especially since only the Introductory Set contains the cutters needed to even get the models off the sprue.

I get it, but GW and everyone else seems to rely on the store selling you the rest of the stuff to go with it. Which considering Army Painter has a basic tool kit(cutters, glue, knife, sculpting tool, pin vice, some green stuff, file superglue works out fine. And not including GW paints is an opportunity for an LGS to keep people out of that overpriced ecosystem from the start.

I think the biggest problem for all of these companies, is that having an actual starter set for every faction with dice, couple basic speed paints and a cheap brush, cutters, glue, etc. times 10 or even times 30 while still maintaining additional combo boxes becomes a SKU problem. Aside from your own inventory, you're also asking stores to stock even more boxes on top of that and it still needs to be enough models to actually play the game in some fashion.

Same thing happens around christmas time when GW does their holiday battleforce boxes. They're usually decent starters, but will never include enough for an absolutely new person. But they've been doing this for decades(and so have other companies) and still managed to get new players even if prices in the past were shit too(lets face it, GW has always been expensive and contrary to what some might believe, having the time to paint plastic space men and roll dice to make them battle is a luxury hobby, and not even expensive compared to plenty of other "real" hobbies).

 

[ToroidalBoat]

I do not know how to play the WH40K tabletop. So if I had figures, I'd likely just use them to play chess. Like a Rhino could be rook.

 

[Mr Clark]

If GW made a starter kit of tools, it would be horrendously expensive because GW. Nippers, a knife and brushes are dirt cheap on amazon especially when compared to GW.

If they made a starter set of paints, it enforces certain paint schemes or only has value for those certain schemes.

Combat Patrols are a good intro because it has all the models you could need. Yeah you need Primer, nippers, knife and brushes but theyre a rounding error. Most schemes have 5 colours and 2 washes, thats not oppressive.

Id suggest killteam as a good intro but my understanding is they add more rules and their units arent always able to be used in 40k. Im looking at Blades of Khaine or Novitiates as a dip into the game mode but man, the transition to 40k irks me a little.

 

[Swiss46]

I do not know how to play the WH40K tabletop. So if I had figures, I'd likely just use them to play chess. Like a Rhino could be rook.

That would be a very big rook. Anyway got my metal aspiring champion model painted yesterday.

Spoiler: Model

 

[Cheb Dagness]

That would be a very big rook. Anyway got my metal aspiring champion model painted yesterday.

Spoiler: Model

View attachment 7569522

Always nice to see people posting models (though the discussion about hobby tips, lore and rules is what keeps me coming back to this thread).
In that spirit, here's a recent(ish) one I'm happy with

Keep it up lads, this is one if the best 40k threads online.

 

[I Know 孤独のせい]

Ok, subassembly of my Wraithguards is complete. Painting and final assembly tomorrow during the day, can't play games in this heat anyway. I also started picking up older Eldar codices on eBay.

 

[Spilled Spaghett]

I do not know how to play the WH40K tabletop. So if I had figures, I'd likely just use them to play chess. Like a Rhino could be rook.

Um I think you mean you'd play Regicide!

40k is really not too hard to get the basics, but it's harder if you've never played a wargame before. Honestly, getting used to a board game without a board or spaces was kind of a new concept for me. You don't need to play the game to enjoy modeling and painting. They can just be art pieces if you like.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

wargame

I've played RTS vidyas like StarCraft. How similar is a wargame to those?

 

[p1138]

I've played RTS vidyas like StarCraft. How similar is a wargame to those?

The "closest" thing out there might be something like Battlesector, but even that's not really close to being 1:1 of the tabletop. Starcraft to 40k? Not even close.

Yes, you've got different units that do different things, but it's turn based(in 40k, all of my stuff goes, then all of your stuff), different abilities need to be triggered in different phases of turns, so you can't just do something for the sake of doing it. You're not spawning in additional units beyond what you had in your list to start with(you may not start with your entire 2000 points on the table, but you aren't going to be adding to that list as the game goes on). Because of the alternating nature of the turns(even in a system with alternating activations rather than an entire army going at once) you've got to consider line of sight, cover, potential threat ranges of your opponent's units, can you get your shooting units into range to fire without just immediately being charged by a melee unit or shot at by some anti tank when the opponent takes their turn, and so on.

You could also find a discord where people play 40k in tabletop simulator, there are mods for it that include all of the assets needed, and give that a try as well if you're willing to put up with the jank of TTS.

 

[Gorby-Chan]

Since we're model posting again, my Afrika Korp killa kans

 

[Spilled Spaghett]

I've played RTS vidyas like StarCraft. How similar is a wargame to those?

p1138 covered it very well, but I'd add that wargames, and Warhammer especially, are closer to Chess than any other game. You start the game with the whole army you're ever going to have, starting in your deployment zone, and every time you move a piece you have to consider where will my opponent move on his turn? What pieces can attack mine? Trading is a big one too. If I send my pawn forward to capture this piece my opponent will likely take mine on his turn. Is that worth it? The major difference is there are no spaces like chess so positioning is completely freeform. Each model doesn't always act independently either. A group of space marines are a unit that act as one. You move each model independently, but they have to stay close to each other, and perform every action together.

If you ever wanted a demo game I could help out on Tabletop Sim. Yeah it can be a bit jank, but it gives some QoL tools that I think make up for it.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

wargames, and Warhammer especially, are closer to Chess than any other game

Reminds me of this quote on 1d4chan 1d6chan (a wiki really into WH40K BTW):

"They say it's the game of kings. That chess teaches one to think strategically. What a load of rubbish! Both sides have identical pieces, the rules stay invariably the same. How does this mirror real life?"

- Radovid, on why chess completely fucking fails as a wargame.​

(Chess - 1d6chan - Miraheze)

I still think chess is OK BTW. I think it was designed back when battles were rigidly organized, and fought on flat open fields. And before gunpowder really changed battles.

 

[Van Darkholme]

I have been perusing the Core Book and there is something that I find really strange. Maybe someone who has an older version can confirm if this is normal or a (dumb) new decision on GW's part. Why are there so many pages dedicated to combat patrols when those either are bad value, sell out immediately or get discontinued and replaced with a new one. Isn't that a total waste of space, or is GW of the opinion that people interested in the hobby will pick up the Core Book first and decide with its help on which army to build.

I will start with assembling and painting my Eldar this weekend. I will try the subassembly method, will probably result in a better paint job.

And I picked up a couple of shirts a while ago:

View attachment 7560535

That John Blanche Sisters codex artwork is still one of the best, wish I had a proper print of it.

 

[demicolon]

Reminds me of this quote on 1d4chan 1d6chan (a wiki really into WH40K BTW):


(Chess - 1d6chan - Miraheze)

I still think chess is OK BTW. I think it was designed back when battles were rigidly organized, and fought on flat open fields. And before gunpowder really changed battles.

Bobby Fisher was of the same opinion and invented his own variant where the back pieces are placed randomly. What's interesting is how many chess masters have a lot of difficulty winning that.

 

[Spilled Spaghett]

Reminds me of this quote on 1d4chan 1d6chan (a wiki really into WH40K BTW):


(Chess - 1d6chan - Miraheze)

I still think chess is OK BTW. I think it was designed back when battles were rigidly organized, and fought on flat open fields. And before gunpowder really changed battles.

This is all true but Chess is still a good analogy since it's a lot easier to understand. Everyone knows what chess is. If you picture 40k as a chess board moving all your pieces forward trying to capture others you basically understand what 40k is about. Maybe that's what Chess needs is a point system where you can bring whatever pieces you want up to a point limit.

 

[I Know 孤独のせい]

Slow day, still not done with priming. Body parts still need another round, and then I still have to do weapons and the bases. I can see why every video on the topic of painting 40K miniatures is recommending a rattle can. But I am enjoying doing it with a brush, so not an issue for now. Will need one of those hobby knives, removing those mold lines with that tool from GW is a pain and doesn't really work half the time.

 

[Spilled Spaghett]

Will need one of those hobby knives, removing those mold lines with that tool from GW is a pain and doesn't really work half the time.

I'd also recommend a pack of sanding sticks, sometimes called sanding twigs. They're thin so you can get them into tiny crevices and flexible to work around bends.