Warhammer 40k

[JB 236]

also how could you not like the space romans?

 

[Caddchef]

In a setting that is basically the fall of Space-Rome, Space Romans are literally the most boring part of the fluff.

Hell, in my opinion if you remove space marines entirely the setting becomes infinitely more interesting, guardsmen standing against untold legions and horrors of the universe is far better than sick awesome supa soldiers killing everything before them.

 

[Male Idiot]

In a setting that is basically the fall of Space-Rome, Space Romans are literally the most boring part of the fluff.

Hell, in my opinion if you remove space marines entirely the setting becomes infinitely more interesting, guardsmen standing against untold legions and horrors of the universe is far better than sick awesome supa soldiers killing everything before them.

So starship troopers with demons beside bugs. 40k without sm woukd be like mcdonalds without burgers.

 

[Miles Peterson]

In a setting that is basically the fall of Space-Rome, Space Romans are literally the most boring part of the fluff.

Hell, in my opinion if you remove space marines entirely the setting becomes infinitely more interesting, guardsmen standing against untold legions and horrors of the universe is far better than sick awesome supa soldiers killing everything before them.

So, to make 40k more interesting, we need to make it more like every other generic wargame and sci-fi setting that has hordes regular, unagemented humans narrowly holding the lines against hordes of superior aliens, but this time the humans have skulls on everything.....yeah, think I'll pass on that.

So starship troopers with demons beside bugs.

Well, book ST has power armor, and in the later films they also have it. So you'd need some even more generic sci-fi setting, like colonial marines or something.

 

[Caddchef]

Generic? We already have augment superhuman servo slaves, drug fuelled cyborg assassins, legions of zelous religious cultists in power armour designed by Victoria Secrets, sactioned super psychers who can vaporize tanks with their mind, insane hoards of neo-flagilants, huge robot men, huge robot men 2: electric bugaloo, legions of destinctive guard armies, etc, etc, etc all being manouvered by shadowy figures and sects who are supposed to be allies but have their own agendas, and that's just in a single faction!

I'm not seriously saying remove spacemarines, what i am saying is let's not pretend they are anywhere near the most interesting and destinctive factions in 40k and Games Workshops increasing obsession with the space knights makes the setting worse.

 

[Male Idiot]

They are the core of the setting. ISM vs CSM is the backbone of 40k.

Gw would not pump out so much SM codexes if they were not a fan favourite.

 

[Caddchef]

At one time that might have been true, i've been in the hobby on and off since the end of the rogue trader era and chaos has never been so irrelevant, just look at the number of codexes:

SM codexes: 7
CSM codess: 3

Hell, look at the factions from the GW website:

Imperium: 15
Chaos: 4
Zenos: 9

There are more imperial factions than all others put together, almost half of those are SM, luckily my local hobby group has a lot of non-SM factions to play against but i hear stories from players bemoaning the fact that they can only play against the different flavours of Space Marines and that's my point, GW over the last decade or so has plowed too much resources into Spacemarine factions when compared to others and don't even get me started on Primaris lieutenants

 

[Miles Peterson]

Generic? We already have augment superhuman servo slaves, drug fuelled cyborg assassins, legions of zelous religious cultists in power armour designed by Victoria Secrets, sactioned super psychers who can vaporize tanks with their mind, insane hoards of neo-flagilants, huge robot men, huge robot men 2: electric bugaloo, legions of destinctive guard armies, etc, etc, etc all being manouvered by shadowy figures and sects who are supposed to be allies but have their own agendas, and that's just in a single faction!

Eh....yes and no. Yes, that stuff exists, in both fluff and tabletop. But as far as it's actual appearance, the vast majority of it is just plain old IG and their incredibly distinctive and unique aesthetic of "dudes with boxy sci-fi rifles and boxy sci-fi armor". psykers and admech are a bit less cookie cutter, but they're also way less common (the admech less so, but they also tended to be "the guard, but with red robes and more bionics" in a lot of the books until fairly recently), and once you get past knights, the other stuff is incredibly rare both in books and on the table.

I'm not seriously saying remove spacemarines, what i am saying is let's not pretend they are anywhere near the most interesting and destinctive factions in 40k and Games Workshops increasing obsession with the space knights makes the setting worse.

Makes the setting worse how, though? Like, if you want to talk about the setting as a whole, literally anyone that's not the guard is irrelevant, simply because their aren't enough of them to make any kind of meaningful impact on a galactic scale (with the possibly exception of the titan legions, and they don't deploy unless it's a huge thing, which most conflicts in 40k are not), and they rarely show up in the setting otherwise (unless they're the admech, and that's because GW wants to push the models/sets battles where the admech already is). And given that most named IG regiments are literally just "historical army or nation in space with ray guns"...that's an improvement over the marines how, exactly? Yeah, they're not exactly original, but given that most of 40k is a blatant rip off of something else, they're not notably bland either, just part of the pack.

At one time that might have been true, i've been in the hobby on and off since the end of the rogue trader era and chaos has never been so irrelevant, just look at the number of codexes:

SM codexes: 7
CSM codess: 3

Hell, look at the factions from the GW website:

Imperium: 15
Chaos: 4
Zenos: 9

Oh my god, the setting protagonists get more emphasis than the non-protagonists, what a shock, that's never happened before, aside from in everything else ever.

Counting codexes is and always has been a stupid fucking practice, because marine codexes are all the same. They all have the same rules, the same weapons, the same tactics, and the same units, expect for a few special characters, a few exclusive units/weapons per army, and whatever version of chapter tactics they have. The only reason they're not all in the same book is because the fluff and crap won't fit in one codex, not because dark angels are so vastly different from vanilla marines they need their own book. It's a cheap way to try and inflate the numbers, not a legitimate points. There are 3 marine factions. Space marines, deathwatch, and grey knights, and really it's like two and a half because pure deathwatch is rare and usually comes as a support part of something else.

It's doubly stupid when you use that to buttress your claims of chaos being irrelevant now. Nevermind the great rift, nevermind the entire edition putting the imperium vs chaos as the front and center conflict, nevermind having two deamon primarchs running around along with major releases for several chaos armies, nevermind you're about to get another one whenever shadowspear drops, nevermind the long running narrative favoritism of "chaos factions can do whatever they want, whenever, because magic", never mind all of that, you don't have enough books, therefore you're irreverent.

There are more imperial factions than all others put together, almost half of those are SM, luckily my local hobby group has a lot of non-SM factions to play against but i hear stories from players bemoaning the fact that they can only play against the different flavours of Space Marines and that's my point, GW over the last decade or so has plowed too much resources into Spacemarine factions when compared to others

It's like they're trying to tell us something.


If you buy a new iphone, you do not get to whine about apple rolling out a new one two years later and putting out a firmware update that taxes older models to the limit, you knew damn well that apple had a long history of doing that. Space marines have been front and center in 40k since 40k existed, and this has never been some secret, hidden thing. You know what you're getting into.

and don't even get me started on Primaris lieutenants

Oh no, GW is making special promo characters, but most of them are space marines, what a shocking and unpredictable thing! If only they had a years long track record of doing that, maybe we would have been warned!

 

[Caddchef]

Eh....yes and no. Yes, that stuff exists, in both fluff and tabletop. But as far as it's actual appearance, the vast majority of it is just plain old IG and their incredibly distinctive and unique aesthetic of "dudes with boxy sci-fi rifles and boxy sci-fi armor". psykers and admech are a bit less cookie cutter, but they're also way less common (the admech less so, but they also tended to be "the guard, but with red robes and more bionics" in a lot of the books until fairly recently), and once you get past knights, the other stuff is incredibly rare both in books and on the table.

Are you really arguing that even the modern guard are any more generic, and carry more boxy rifles than space knight chapter: Medium blue with gold trim? Or space knight chapter: light blue with wolf pelts? Or space knight chapter yellow?

You seem to be missing my point and highlighting at the same time without realising.

In 2nd ed. We had an explosion of guard, they were pushed really hard, had great models and in my opinion the first truely modern codex, if GW pushed that again we could get back to the guard's glory days where instead of "generic" Cadians we had Vallhallan Ice Warriors, Catachan Jungle Fighters,
Vostroyan Firstborn, Tallarn Desert Raiders, Mordian Ironguard, Attillan Rough Riders, Pretorians and Cadians and we had a huge surge in players.

To summarise it, if GW had put more effort into other factions rather than a decade and a half of making more Space Marines, there's no reason these factions wouldn't be just as popular.

Makes the setting worse how, though? Like, if you want to talk about the setting as a whole, literally anyone that's not the guard is irrelevant, simply because their aren't enough of them to make any kind of meaningful impact on a galactic scale (with the possibly exception of the titan legions, and they don't deploy unless it's a huge thing, which most conflicts in 40k are not), and they rarely show up in the setting otherwise (unless they're the admech, and that's because GW wants to push the models/sets battles where the admech already is). And given that most named IG regiments are literally just "historical army or nation in space with ray guns"...that's an improvement over the marines how, exactly? Yeah, they're not exactly original, but given that most of 40k is a blatant rip off of something else, they're not notably bland either, just part of the pack.

How would that NOT an improvement over the same troops with the same weapons painted different colours? You use the word generic but the difference between almost all chapters are the colours they're painted, how is that not the definition of generic?

I'm focusing on guard more than i'd like here, i'm not a guard player, but they're an easy example i suppose.

Oh my god, the setting protagonists get more emphasis than the non-protagonists, what a shock, that's never happened before, aside from in everything else ever.

The Imperium aren't the protagonists though, are they?
Let's be honest here, the Imperium in general is supposed to be a framing narrative for the setting, has been since rogue trader.

Counting codexes is and always has been a stupid fucking practice, because marine codexes are all the same. They all have the same rules, the same weapons, the same tactics, and the same units, expect for a few special characters, a few exclusive units/weapons per army, and whatever version of chapter tactics they have. The only reason they're not all in the same book is because the fluff and crap won't fit in one codex, not because dark angels are so vastly different from vanilla marines they need their own book. It's a cheap way to try and inflate the numbers, not a legitimate points. There are 3 marine factions. Space marines, deathwatch, and grey knights, and really it's like two and a half because pure deathwatch is rare and usually comes as a support part of something else.

But there are seven, and i'm not arguing that GW should condense them as GW are a business at the end of the day, what i'm saying is people look at Space Marines dominance in sales and say "they make lots of spacemarines because space marines sell" but i'm arguing that that's due to the business pushing them for at least a decade over the other factions, who could be just as lucrative.

It's doubly stupid when you use that to buttress your claims of chaos being irrelevant now. Nevermind the great rift, nevermind the entire edition putting the imperium vs chaos as the front and center conflict, nevermind having two deamon primarchs running around along with major releases for several chaos armies, nevermind you're about to get another one whenever shadowspear drops, nevermind the long running narrative favoritism of "chaos factions can do whatever they want, whenever, because magic", never mind all of that, you don't have enough books, therefore you're irreverent.

And yet the factional leader, lord of the Black Legion chosen by Horus himself has a model older than half the fanbase, really makes you think.

Chaos has been desperate for a propper update for at least 2 editions now and they are finally getting around to it, as i said this issue is historic and things seem to finally be getting better as prior to 8th CSM had some of the oldest and crappiest models of any line.

It's like they're trying to tell us something.


If you buy a new iphone, you do not get to whine about apple rolling out a new one two years later and putting out a firmware update that taxes older models to the limit, you knew damn well that apple had a long history of doing that. Space marines have been front and center in 40k since 40k existed, and this has never been some secret, hidden thing. You know what you're getting into.

Not going to argue that they have been the poster boys of 40k since 40k was a thing, what i'm saying is that there's no reason the other factions can't get as much love as they do.

Oh no, GW is making special promo characters, but most of them are space marines, what a shocking and unpredictable thing! If only they had a years long track record of doing that, maybe we would have been warned!

See literally everything i've already said in tis entire thread.

 

[Miles Peterson]

Are you really arguing that even the modern guard are any more generic, and carry more boxy rifles than space knight chapter: Medium blue with gold trim? Or space knight chapter: light blue with wolf pelts? Or space knight chapter yellow?

You seem to be missing my point and highlighting at the same time without realising.

I'm saying 40k is, in general, derivative and uninspired, and that marines are no more or less so than the rest of the franchise.

In 2nd ed. We had an explosion of guard, they were pushed really hard, had great models and in my opinion the first truely modern codex, if GW pushed that again we could get back to the guard's glory days where instead of "generic" Cadians we had Vallhallan Ice Warriors, Catachan Jungle Fighters,
Vostroyan Firstborn, Tallarn Desert Raiders, Mordian Ironguard, Attillan Rough Riders, Pretorians and Cadians and we had a huge surge in players.

To summarise it, if GW had put more effort into other factions rather than a decade and a half of making more Space Marines, there's no reason these factions wouldn't be just as popular.

So, let me see if I get this right.

"Space knights, blue with gold trim" = generic and uninteresting

"literally just some Russian dudes/brits from the 1880s, but with ray guns" = totally original and they hypeist shit ever.

How would that NOT an improvement over the same troops with the same weapons painted different colours? You use the word generic but the difference between almost all chapters are the colours they're painted, how is that not the definition of generic?

I'm focusing on guard more than i'd like here, i'm not a guard player, but they're an easy example i suppose.

You didn't answer the question. How is a focus on marines making the setting worse?

Also, given that literally everyone but guard are in the same boat as marines in that the chief distinguishing factor between subfactions is paint job, and that guard already have more model variety than anyone else, I feel this is less "I want to fix an issue with the setting" and more "I have nostalgia goggles bolted to my skull and they won't come off". In 2e, where everyone was stuck with crappy looking one piece metal models, it might have been economical to have a wide range of guard models. Now, bigger, multipart, customizable plastic is the norm, and GW likely can't afford to have a dozen different guard kits of different styles of the same unit (hell, even most third party manufacturers can only afford one or two styles, I'm only familiar with 2 that really have a wide range, and they're both more expensive than GW).

The Imperium aren't the protagonists though, are they?
Let's be honest here, the Imperium in general is a framing narative for the setting, has been since rogue trader.

A distinction without a meaningful difference, and in the case of the vast, vast majority of the books, entirely wrong.

But there are seven, and i'm not arguing that GW should condense them as GW are a business at the end of the day, what i'm saying is people look at Space Marines dominance in sales is due to the business pushing them for at least a decade over the other factions, which could be just as lucrative.

Sure, it could be, but it also might be an expensive bomb, and companies don't like risk. Given that other factions that get newer models and more support have yet to topple marines from their position, your position that they could do so if only GW threw yet more resources into them and this time it will work seems ill-founded.

And yet the factional leader, lord of the Black Legion chosen by Horus himself has a model older than half the fanbase, really makes you think.

And Calgar's model was just as old, as were the ones for like half the marine special characters, and both of them have gottten new ones made recently. Your point?

And Horus didn't choose Abbadon to lead the black legion, Horus had been dead for centuries by the time no-arms got around to founding the legion. I'm starting to doubt that whole "no, I've been playing since 2e" claim of yours.

Chaos has been desperate for a propper update for at least 2 editions now and they are finally getting around to it, as i said this issue is historic and things seem to finally be getting better as prior to 8th CSM had some of the oldest and crappiest models of any line.

Sure you did. Every army's players always say they have the crappiest and oldest models and need an update, and you're all full of shit since you're not the SoB players, who actually have the claim to that title.

Not going to argue that they have been the poster boys of 40k since 40k was a thing, what i'm saying is that there's no reason the other factions can't get as much love as they do.

Define "as much", because you've already established that "have 3-4 different kits for your basic troop choice and not just one" is not good enough.

 

[Your Weird Fetish]

Space Marines are the most boring part of the setting but most 40k fans are autistic so it works out.

 

[Caddchef]

So, let me see if I get this right.

"Space knights, blue with gold trim" = generic and uninteresting

"literally just some Russian dudes/brits from the 1880s, but with ray guns" = totally original and they hypeist shit ever.

How are you not getting this? In the spirit of facetious hyperbole, yes.

A distinction without a meaningful difference, and in the case of the vast, vast majority of the books, entirely wrong.

The vast majority of black library novels are space marine wankery written by no talent hacks, so no surprise there then.

Sure, it could be, but it also might be an expensive bomb, and companies don't like risk. Given that other factions that get newer models and more support have yet to topple marines from their position, your position that they could do so if only GW threw yet more resources into them and this time it will work seems ill-founded

Not saying that GW should abandon Space Marines, i'm arguing that if GW hadn't pushed a decade of Space Marine bias onto their IP maybe their other lines would be just as successful.

And Calgar's model was just as old, as were the ones for like half the marine special characters, and both of them have gottten new ones made recently. Your point?

And Horus didn't choose Abbadon to lead the black legion, Horus had been dead for centuries by the time no-arms got around to founding the legion. I'm starting to doubt that whole "no, I've been playing since 2e" claim of yours.

Abbaddon was first captain of the Sons of Horus and one of four members of Horus' super secret club/ council.

And which Calgar model are we talking here? Because there have been three in the same period Abbaddon had one.

For the record even if i didn't play in 2nd ed. my points are no less valid.

Sure you did. Every army's players always say they have the crappiest and oldest models and need an update, and you're all full of shit since you're not the SoB players, who actually have the claim to that title.

Sure

Thing

Bro

Ooooooooooooo

Ooooooooooooooooooooo

OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

Seriously though, 2nd ed. metals are better than 3rd ed. plastics.

P.s. i don't play Chaos either.

P.P.S. careful, you're getting a bit mad on the internet.

 

[Picnic_Boy]

The IG do still kick everything else's ass. An IG gunline made of tanks and Guardsmen is still the scariest thing in 40K, this is coming from someone who runs Tyranids, GC, Daemons and Primaris.

 

[Tranhuviya]

IG and Chaos need a serious update to their "core armies", yeah. For IG, Guilliman undertaking reforms in his capacity as Lord Commander could be used to explain changes to the range. As for Chaos, just say the Dark Gods are doing the best they can to empower existing champions and raise new ones to snuff out the hope of the Imperials. The latter is sort of what GW is doing now with Chaos.

 

[Your Weird Fetish]

For IG, Guilliman undertaking reforms in his capacity as Lord Commander could be used to explain changes to the range\

Well he is every Guardsman's spiritual liege after all.

 

[Tranhuviya]

Well he is every Guardsman's temporal liege after all.

FTFY

 

[Polyboros2]

Space Marines are the John Cena of 40k.

And by that I mean a specific thing. I believe most fandoms have a John Cena. An element to the game that is especially marketable, but to a wider audience that is less invested. The people really involved get tired of the popular, profitable character being pushed all the time, not because they hate that character, but because they are so invested in the media that they get tired of it, because it is repeated very frequently to them.

Broly is Dragon Ball's John Cena. Jace is Magic the Gathering's John Cena. Space Marines are 40k's.

I know all don't match my description (case could be made Goku is DB's John Cena), but that's what I call it when there is a quiet majority that likes a character, that they very invested fandom loathes for it's over usage.

 

[Burned Man]

For IG, Guilliman undertaking reforms in his capacity as Lord Commander could be used to explain changes to the range.

I could see Guilliman standardizing the IG like he tried to do with Space Marines. You take all the homeless Cadians and turn them into drill sergeants and set up training planets and take some guardsmen from Catachan, Tallarn, and Valhalla for environmental survivalist training. That way when the Munitorum comes looking for the nearest meat to shove into the grinder it isn't taking a bunch of guys from Catachan who don't know what snow or sleeves are and throwing them on to an ice world.

 

[Your Weird Fetish]

Space Marines are the John Cena of 40k.

And by that I mean a specific thing. I believe most fandoms have a John Cena. An element to the game that is especially marketable, but to a wider audience that is less invested. The people really involved get tired of the popular, profitable character being pushed all the time, not because they hate that character, but because they are so invested in the media that they get tired of it, because it is repeated very frequently to them.

Broly is Dragon Ball's John Cena. Jace is Magic the Gathering's John Cena. Space Marines are 40k's.

I know all don't match my description (case could be made Goku is DB's John Cena), but that's what I call it when there is a quiet majority that likes a character, that they very invested fandom loathes for it's over usage.

Guilliman is a Mary Sue of the highest order on top of that though and Ultramarines have been writers' pets for ages.

 

[Picnic_Boy]

Guilliman is a Mary Sue of the highest order on top of that though and Ultramarines have been writers' pets for ages.

Ultramarines appear to be involved in every ongoing struggle in the 40k universe, which should be physically impossible. It would blow my mind if they made a boxed set with Carcharodons or Novamarines, they're out risking their asses just as much as the UM, but you'd never know it.