Was Hitler an idiot?

[byuu]

Gotta crack a few eggs to make an omelet.

And then you get the omelette burned and have to kill yourself.

 

[DocHoliday1977]

Yes.

 

[Manah]

How do people keep finding these years old threads and reviving them?

 

[ProgKing of the North]

How do people keep finding these years old threads and reviving them?

It was bumped by a newfag with a pepe avatar*, seems likely he just did a search for "Hitler" and bumped the first one that struck his fancy

*Kiss my ass

 

[mindlessobserver]

Hitler was an incompotent daydreamer.
Hitler could have won the war if he after conquering frace, norway, Poland and czechlovakia decided to declare peace with the allies instead of pushing forward into russia. He should have used that time to build up an army worthy to invade and decimate russia.
Or he could have bombed Russian farms and let the ussr turn inward. Either way he was only talk and none of the doing.

He did actually try and make peace with the Allies, or more broadly, the UK, after the surrender of France. Part of the reason the Battle of Britain and the plans for the invasion of England came across as an incoherent mess was because they were. Germany had no plans to invade the UK because they assumed they had already won. But Britain point blank refused to peace out and continued with the blockade of Germany, and even went so far as to start sinking French Navy ships in the off chance that they might be handed over to the Germans. The Royal Navy also continued to use the Italian Navy for target practice at Taranto and the Siege of Malta.

As for Germany/Soviet relations, both Stalin and Hitler fully expected they would go to war with each other. All things considered, the decision to invade the Soviet Union in 1941 was a sound one. There was no immediate danger from the UK in the West. Germany's only major threat was Russia. A Russia with its Army in total disarray thanks to Comrade Stalin purging the entire officer corps. Its important to remember that in the first year of the War the Soviet Army was absolutely creamed. The issue Hitler ran into was that the supply lines became too long, and of course, the winter became unusually fierce, even for Russia. Even then it was a very near thing. He might have even pulled it off had he ordered his Army to move straight for Baku and the Oil Fields rather then focusing on Stalingrad so hard.

Which was his major flaw. Hitler was a great ORGANIZER. He knew how to set up institutions and put plans in motion at a genius level. He was a terrible tactical commander however, and all his great blunders came from attempting to micromanage his generals at the unit level rather then trusting them to implement his vision. He also wasted stupendous human and financial resources in his ethnic purges. Just imagine how many divisions he could have raised and armed from the 10 million "undesirables" he purged instead.

 

[Feline Supremacist]

He's an idiot because he lost. If he had won he'd be a genius.

 

[ZeCommissar]

. He also wasted stupendous human and financial resources in his ethnic purges. Just imagine how many divisions he could have raised and armed from the 10 million "undesirables" he purged instead.

"If the Nazis weren't Nazis they would have won"

The Ukrainians were for the most part willing and ready to collaborate with the Nazis since they hated the Soviets for the Holodomor and wanted their own state. However as we all know Nazis weren't very....kind in occupied Soviet lands to the point that when the Red Army returned they instead were greeted as liberators and had over 4.5 million people join the Red Army. This is nothing to say of other ethnic groups that could have been conscripted/convinced to fight against the Soviets that were purged.

People that say "he should have just ignored Russia" don't realize that in doing so we aren't talking about Nazis anymore. Hitlers plan was getting Lebensraum at all costs. The German method in Winter '41 of just "attack, attack, attack" when they were right outside of Moscow in a cold ass winter with tired troops instead of just digging in and waiting for the inevitable Soviet counterattack also shows how naive OberKommando could be. They could have bled the Soviets dry from said counterattack and try to resume operations next year after taking the oilfields...which they also failed at.

Hell even if they took Moscow the war wouldn't have just ended there. Sure they might have been in a more favorable position, but they would have had to push the Soviets all the way into the urals before they could even dare claim victory. Stalin would have been just as stubborn as Hitler, and at best the Germans could have hoped to just make a wall of troops infront of the Urals and hold until the Soviets had literally nothing left to counterattack with. They Germans had the very real possibility of losing before that point even if they took Moscow.

The Nazis could have probably won the Blitz in Britain if they crippled the RAFs ablity to fly instead of going into an autistic fit because they got bombed in a war, which is what made them switch to civilian targets. "The Nazis entered this war under the rather childish delusion that they were going to bomb everybody else and nobody was going to bomb them"

The Nazis were idiots because they rarely looked at things in the pragmatic view when it came to winning a war.

 

[Pixy]

I mean... How an idiot can become the chancellor and after that become fuhrer

You need to understand that he was never elected for such a position. The Nazi party, although the largest party in the Reichstag, never had a majority, even when they had their largest electoral victory. They had to forge a coalition with the Conservatives most of the time.

Since Hitler had repeatedly thrown a fit in past governments over never being appointed Chancellor, after the November 1932 election, the Conservatives convinced President Hindenburg to appoint Hitler Chancellor because they thought they could control him.

edit: In regards to him becoming Fuhrer, that was because Hindenburg died in August 1933, and Hitler "legally" usurped the powers of the President. By then, the Nazis had already achieved political dominance and were enacting Gleichschaltung via the Reichstag Fire Decree and the Enabling Act. As they formed the government (and had banned every other political party/forced them to dissolve), the Enabling Act allowed them to pass legislation without involvement of the Reichstag, which had become a rubber stamp thanks to their efforts to undermine German democracy.

 

[Кот Бегемот]

The Ukrainians were for the most part willing and ready to collaborate with the Nazis since they hated the Soviets for the Holodomor and wanted their own state. However as well all know Nazis weren't very....kind in occupied Soviet lands to the point that when the Red Army returned they instead were greeted as liberators and had over 4.5 million people join the Red Army. This is nothing to say of other ethnic groups that could have been conscripted/convinced to fight against the Soviets that were purged.

Ukrainians weren't the only ones, there were Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonias, Beloruss, Crimean Tatars, Don kossaks, Georgians, Armenians .... they didn't call it "red terror" for nothing. Bolsheviks up to 1939 went on bloody rampage and pissed off every neighbor, never mind their own people.

One telling figure was that over 3x x-Soviets fought against the Soviet Union compared to the civil war 20 years prior. That tells you how sick people were of executions, Gulags and collectivization.

Another issue that Soviets had, was complete apathy of people to join the guerilla warfare on Nazi occupied lands. Very little interest. Germans were grooming the occupied lands as their slave/resource base, while commies didn't care. Villages starved, so what? Soviets had special forces that parachuted behind enemy lines to terrorize locals and to force them into joining Nazi resistance at gun point.

Ukraian Galician Waffen SS was formed to fight communists only, not allies. When they surrendered to allies, they were interned, cleared of war crimes and let resettle far away from the commies.

If you want to draw lines, USSR entered the WWII in September of 1939 on the side of Axis, annexed half a Poland working hand in hand with Nazi troops, invaded Finland, was kicked out of League of Nations ... if you want to pin shit on Hitler as the only "evil doer" that's not even half of it.

 

[ZeCommissar]

Ukrainians weren't the only ones, there were Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonias, Beloruss, Crimean Tatars, Don kossaks, Georgians, Armenians .... they didn't call it "red terror" for nothing. Bolsheviks up to 1939 went on bloody rampage and pissed off every neighbor, never mind their own people.

One telling figure was that over 3x x-Soviets fought against the Soviet Union compared to the civil war 20 years prior. That tells you how sick people were of executions, Gulags and collectivization.

Another issue that Soviets had, was complete apathy of people to join the guerilla warfare on Nazi occupied lands. Very little interest. Germans were grooming the occupied lands as their slave/resource base, while commies didn't care. Villages starved, so what? Soviets had special forces that parachuted behind enemy lines to terrorize locals and to force them into joining Nazi resistance at gun point.

Ukraian Galician Waffen SS was formed to fight communists only, not allies. When they surrendered to allies, they were interned, cleared of war crimes and let resettle far away from the commies.

If you want to draw lines, USSR entered the WWII in September of 1939 on the side of Axis, annexed half a Poland working hand in hand with Nazi troops, invaded Finland, was kicked out of League of Nations ... if you want to pin shit on Hitler as the only "evil doer" that's not even half of it.

Which makes it even more retarded in the way the Nazis dropped the ball when it came to occupying "soviet" lands that the soviets had just annexed not too long prior. The way the Nazis acted literally defies logic.

Honestly I feel bad for Eastern Europeans during WW2 (and most of history for that matter) in the sense that they always seem to be caught in between and exploited by the giants around them. Soviets came in raped, executed, and starved until the Nazis came in and raped, executed, and starved; just for the Soviets to come right back and rape, execute, and starve. Then they set up communist puppet states that were "nations" in name only and were really just used as a buffer against NATO.

 

[Кот Бегемот]

Which makes it even more exceptional in the way the Nazis dropped the ball when it came to occupying "soviet" lands that the soviets had just annexed not too long prior. The way the Nazis acted literally defies logic.

so yes, there were several periods. In the beginning of the campaign, Nazis didn't terrorize locals unless they were jews or gipsies. A lot of locals welcomed them as liberators and in fact Nazi's did know and used that sentiment against communists. Nazis knew about Holodomor and presented it as predominantly jewish orchestrated event. There are propaganada posters to back this. They pressed jews-communists angle well.

In the beginning of Barbarosa, Nazis were completely surprised how many Red Army units surrendered, so much that they had absolutely no logistics to support it. From some memoirs, the numbers were so great that front units simply disarmed surrendering troops and let them walk West with their hands up. There were no provisions how to house and feed thousands of prisoners.

Later in the war, some on occupied lands became disenchanted with occupation seeing that they are basically a slave resource, not a country with the Reich and with war not going well, Nazi's milked them as much as they could. The life on occupied lands was rough, but at least predictable.

In the end, there was scorched earth. Nazis also did take seriously guerilla warfare and dished out punishment galore for any community that wanted to help resistance.

Honestly I feel bad for Eastern Europeans during WW2 (and most of history for that matter) in the sense that they always seem to be caught in between and exploited by the giants around them. Soviets came in raped, executed, and starved until the Nazis came in and raped, executed, and starved; just for the Soviets to come right back and rape, execute, and starve. Then they set up communist puppet states that were "nations" in name only and were really just used as a buffer against NATO.

From my family recollections, SS did most of the jew killing but regular Wehrmacht was ok. Most soldiers were the same poor bastards that got conscripted into the Red Army, i.e. at the gun point. A lot of soldiers shared their chocolate rations with kids and missed their home a lot.

A lot of Germans who got conscripted were also from country side, i.e. as far from politics as you can get. Basically working on the farm, minding your business and raising livestock. Then one day they send you Gott knows where to die.

Soviets did massive scorched earth. In fact when retreating, all political and other prisoners in jails were executed wholesale. By the end of the war Nazi's did the same scorched earth.

Between Nazis and Soviets Poland/Ukraine lost over 40% of the population.

 

[Ira the Weatherman]

But did that person go about the right way. He did overhaul Germany

Through extensive military keynesianism that was predicated on winning major wars of conquest in the near future to keep the ball rolling. Germany would've collapsed under its own new, militaristic weight hadn't there been a war, and the war they pursued would've ended in quagmire or disaster like what happened historically.

made the autobahn

Not really. Steps to build autobahns had been taken in the 20s, but they were frustrated by lack of manpower and funds. Ironically, one of the reasons for that was the Nazi's, who voted against new funds along with other 'workers parties', because they thought cars were decadent. While you can credit Hitler with throwing enough money and material at the Autobahn to make it happen, it wasn't the act of a visionary as much as a shrewd politician, considering he blatantly stole the idea and put his own name on it.

and ludicrous weapons

Problem being that the projects cheerleader by him were the silliest ones, like the super-duper heavy tanks. The German military rocketry project had started long before he came to power, and continued unchanged afterwards, except they received some more cash (because you'd be an idiot not to when you're planning wars). Hitler really didn't have any personal involvement with their work, beyond praising the inventions they presented him with. If anything, Nazi meddling in the work of the rocket scientists would only mess things up, like when Werner von Braun was arrested by the SS 1944 for really trivial shit and Hitler had to be convinced to let him go.

but he did also make many controversial decisions, like killing Jews, homosexuals and anybody that wanted to make a pre-internet tumblr.

it wasn't just 'controversial', it was often impractical and downright counterproductive. The Nazis' race autism and casual brutality alienated and antagonized alot of occupied peoples that could've been helpful allies had the Germans been more pragmatic. Operation Barbarossa might've went differently if they courted anti-Soviet sentiment better, rather than treating most of the people as subhuman animals and revealing themselves as a worse alternative to Stalin. To quote Talleyrand: 'It was worse than a crime, it was a mistake'.

I think the biggest problem with partitioning out praise or condemnation to Hitler for specific things is that, while he was a dictator, he didn't micromanage his party, let alone the entire country, nor could he have. There was quite a bit of factionalism making use of his whims to advance their own agendas, and for a lot of projects and decisions he wasn't really the arch-mastermind as the rubber stamp for what people under him had planned out.

 

[Tecumseh]

He was a definite drug addict by the end.

 

[Still Anonymous For This]

Yes, I agree that the losses suffered in the Soviet invasion of Finland was not unbearable for Stalin and he did achieve what he wanted in the war. I was just making the point that from the Western and German point of view, they saw the Red Army's poor performance in Finland as evidence of the Red Army's qualitative inferiority when compared to the Western European military forces. That misjudgment contributed to Hitler and his general staff's belief that they could defeat the Red Army, take Moscow, etc in six weeks

This point really can't be driven hard enough. In the 1930s, very few people believed the Soviet Union was going to become the preeminent power in Europe in the next decade or two. Not only had the Soviets suffered horrid losses during the Winter War, but two decades prior they had essentially lost their first war against an emerging Polish Republic during the Polish-Soviet war - where they had to cede territory and influence to Poland: a nation that hadn't existed in over a hundred years. Everybody thought the Soviet Union was a house of straw waiting for a good fire and Germany was apt to be that fire.

Was Hitler an idiot? In some ways, yes. Outside of the truly horrific things he did, I can't really judge him for the actions he took: we're looking at his expansion in the early war years through the advantage of history. We know now that Germany had lost the war in 1939: no matter what they did, they were royally fucked. They just didn't know it yet; their early victories gave them false hopes. Every leader, no matter how large or small, makes critical errors.

Case in point: one of my favorite historical leaders was Józef Piłsudski. He was a good statesman (and took a mean portrait) and saw the writing on the wall during the 1930s with the rise of Germany and the USSR. He's one of the primary reasons why the Polish Army was able to hold off for as long as it did, and even after losing, still provide the fourth largest contingent of troops for the Allies during the war: providing more men than France. He pursued the idea of Międzymorze, the Polish idea of an Eastern European confederation comprising of Poland, Ukraine, the Baltics, Finland, Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, etc. A confederation that could combine resources and troops to stop any future German or Russian meddling.

Unfortunately Piłsudski was a Pole first and a nice guy second. He routinely fucked over the Ukrainians and other possible partners any time it suited Polish interests to do so. Even though he had a strong idea and a reasonable chance of pulling his plan off, he traded long-term gains for short-term gains. He was more interested in furthering Polish interests than those of his partners. If he had been a better leader, I imagine Hitler would have been told to go fuck himself and find his own Sudetenland in 1938. Which could have led to an early victory over Germany: which leads to a stunted USSR, lacking the resources and manpower of Eastern Europe during the Cold War.

One can dream I guess.

 

[Non-Expert!]

No.

 

[Lamaze-P Stan]

Smart during his beginning stages and literally did more of the war work than his generals. It all went downwards after Operation Barbarossa and Invasion of the USSR

 

[Puck]

Yes

Both the war in Russia and in britain were winnable in their early stages. The mark of a good head of state is the ability to take a step back and admit what u dont know and let people who do take point.

 

[Unyielding Stupidity]

He was simultaneously pretty damn smart, and an absolute retard. He managed to become leader of a major power (something that isn't exactly easy), and was very good at encouraging people to support him. However, he also made several major errors, from firing Hjalmar Schacht because Schacht thought Germany's rearmament would fuck up the economy (Spoiler - it did, and Germany's dire economic situation was part of the reason as to why they were fully pushed into invading Poland as soon as they did), to the myriad of issues they made invading the Soviets, to literally being on drugs for a notable portion of the war.

Germany most likely couldn't have won WWII anyway. They should've just waited for Stalin to go attack some neutral third party and end up getting in a war with the US/UK/France, and then attacked the Soviets.

 

[Basil II]

He was simultaneously pretty damn smart, and an absolute exceptional individual. He managed to become leader of a major power (something that isn't exactly easy), and was very good at encouraging people to support him. However, he also made several major errors, from firing Hjalmar Schacht because Schacht thought Germany's rearmament would fuck up the economy (Spoiler - it did, and Germany's dire economic situation was part of the reason as to why they were fully pushed into invading Poland as soon as they did), to the myriad of issues they made invading the Soviets, to literally being on drugs for a notable portion of the war.

Germany most likely couldn't have won WWII anyway. They should've just waited for Stalin to go attack some neutral third party and end up getting in a war with the US/UK/France, and then attacked the Soviets.

Stalin already invaded Poland and Finland while Western Europe did nothing.

 

[qu_rahn]

Hitler was a faggot