Was universal suffrage a mistake?

Ideally, people would be learning about things in school that they would end up voting on as adults. Ideally, people would have to pass a test that shows at least a basic level of understanding of the political system before they're allowed to participate in it via voting.

We do not live in an ideal world, though.

We live in a world with mass media campaigns run by people that are effectively unaccountable, and we live in a world where people who vote are dumb and lazy enough to accept whatever these campaigns say uncritically and use that information/misinformation to make decisions that (in theory) alter the course of not only their own lives but the lives of others. We live in a world where people are not just imperfect, they're HILARIOUSLY so and they've embraced their advanced states of mental infirmity and dysfunction as wisdom, truth and positive qualities that demand a certain degree of genuflection from everyone around them. And this shows no signs of changing for the better.
Why school? Schoo,lexists as a tool of secondary socialisation, to get you to pass exams and to mould you into a good little worker drone.

It's parents that should be teaching that shit and the fact that so many people swallow the "schools should turn you into a fully formed human being and responsible citizen" is the heart of why society is jam-packed full of fucking spastics, raising fucking spastics.
 
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Universal suffrage basically takes away every speck of political power the middle class has and gives it to the elites through their control of mass media.
 
It's at the very CORE of the problem. Voting and the franchise is a tool, and it's a tool being placed in the hands of people who are demonstrating a distinct lack of ability to recognize its potential for benefit or harm. More to the point, nothing is being done right now to improve their ability to wield that tool effectively - the opposite is the case. We're seeing all the other rights in jeopardy, and people having this one right is not improving that - if anything it seems to be making the situation worse. The fact that people cannot and will not understand that a polite suggestion to the government that isn't backed by an implication that "right now we're doing things the easy way, but we will absolutely do this the hard way if you fuck it up" is a toothless plea for mercy from an utterly merciless gestalt-machine of powerseeking sociopaths surrounded by useful idiots is a CORE FAILING OF THE ENTIRE PROCESS.
You still haven't demonstrated anything more than an incidental relationship between the existence of universal suffrage and the problems you're attributing to it, and your insinuation that democracy makes these problems worse is demonstrably false, because so far every one you have mentioned is measurably worse in societies which don't have universal suffrage. I have pointed this out to you multiple times now, and you keep refusing to see sense. It's really getting rather tiresome.

If you want the general public to care about the things you care about, then why not become politically active, and try to raise awareness about these issues? Why not educate yourself about how to best persuade people, and engage in effective community organizing, or start a grassroots campaign? If you can't or won't do that, then you're in no position to be lecturing the general public about being apathetic or ignorant, and you're certainly in no position to suggest that their right to choose their representatives is superfluous, when it has clearly been no more useful in your hands.

Like I said earlier: people have complained about the flaws of democracy for thousands of years. Your complaints about voter apathy, ignorance, and the effective use of state propaganda to beguile the public are not new, and they likely aren't going to disappear in the near future. The persistent problem viewpoints like yours have, however, is that you have not provided evidence of a better alternative: you have not demonstrated that limiting the franchise is the solution to the problems you've identified, and you never will, because it clearly isn't.
This is pretty much what I mean though. I'm pointing out a group that is disenfranchised from being able to participate in democracy by being made unable to communicate. Ignoring that reality, means you're either so out of touch or so dishonest that you'll attack the idea of it by calling it a persecution complex. It reminds of that time a UK university cancelled a student run international men's day event. They had planned to talk about the rising suicide rates. The university released a statement that they'll continue to fight for gender equality by focusing on women only.
The groups you mention aren't prevented from participating in democracy though; they've simply lost a lot of cultural influence, and their opinions may face marginalization in society as a result of that. This is something to be concerned about, for sure, but it's an entirely separate discussion from the one around universal suffrage. People with fringe political opinions have the same right to vote as everyone else, and you can hardly argue that it is the right to vote itself which is responsible for this marginalization you speak about. Compare the level of free speech in countries which have universal suffrage, to ones that don't, and the evidence is abundantly clear.
 
The groups you mention aren't prevented from participating in democracy though
Online censorship, having search and social media silently squelch certain views isn't "prevention of participation in democracy"?

At that point you might as well say north korea isn't preventing anyone from participating in democracy. They have higher voter turnouts as well.

We are more like north korea than we'd like to admit, even if we're not quite there yet.
 
Online censorship, having search and social media silently squelch certain views isn't "prevention of participation in democracy"?

At that point you might as well say north korea isn't preventing anyone from participating in democracy. They have higher voter turnouts as well
Online censorship corrupts democracy, certainly, but it doesn't completely eliminate it. The citizens in democratic countries still have some power to decide who rules over them, while the citizens in North Korea have absolutely none. One is clearly preferable to the other, and it's important not to make the perfect the enemy of the good.

The fact still remains that you haven't demonstrated a causal link between universal suffrage and the complaints you've raised, and you aren't going to.
 
The fact still remains that you haven't demonstrated a causal link between universal suffrage and the complaints you've raised, and you aren't going to.
Maybe I haven't because I'm not against universal suffrage.

I'm just taking issue with people like you that defend a system so corrupted and act like it is working fine. Since now you are admitting that it is corrupted and that censorship does exist and does interfere with the functioning of democracy my mission here is done.
 
You still haven't demonstrated anything more than an incidental relationship between the existence of universal suffrage and the problems you're attributing to it, and your insinuation that democracy makes these problems worse is demonstrably false, because so far every one you have mentioned is measurably worse in societies which don't have universal suffrage. I have pointed this out to you multiple times now, and you keep refusing to see sense. It's really getting rather tiresome.
People vote for politicians. Politicians put riders in budget bills for things like the PATRIOT Act. People do not immediately agitate for this person to be removed from office. Causal link found.

Maybe I haven't because I'm not against universal suffrage.

I'm just taking issue with people like you that defend a system so corrupted and act like it is working fine. Since now you are admitting that it is corrupted and that censorship does exist and does interfere with the functioning of democracy my mission here is done.
He's just a shitheel being a shitheel. How very dare someone contest that the system he loves is deeply flawed.
 
People vote for politicians. Politicians put riders in budget bills for things like the PATRIOT Act. People do not immediately agitate for this person to be removed from office. Causal link found.
People don't immediately agitate for the removal of bad politicians because they're apathetic and misinformed. The causal link isn't with universal suffrage, because under a system without universal suffrage, they would have no means to advocate for reform, nor throw out the leaders they don't like.

Consider the following 4 scenarios:
  • Scenario 1: the citizens have universal suffrage, but are too lazy and ignorant to care. The result: nothing changes.
  • Scenario 2: the citizens have universal suffrage, and are both informed and politically engaged. The result: they force the system to change.
  • Scenario 3: the citizens do not have universal suffrage, and are too lazy and ignorant to care. The result: nothing changes.
  • Scenario 4: the citizens do not have universal suffrage, but are both informed and politically engaged. The result: they have no power to change the system, so nothing changes.
If you want to talk about causal relationships here, it's pretty clear that the problem isn't universal suffrage.
I'm just taking issue with people like you that defend a system so corrupted and act like it is working fine.
He's just a shitheel being a shitheel. How very dare someone contest that the system he loves is deeply flawed.
Both of you seem to have forgotten that I have admitted from the very beginning that democracy is deeply flawed. The crucial point you both keep missing is that it's still better than the alternative.
 
Both of you seem to have forgotten that I have admitted from the very beginning that democracy is deeply flawed. The crucial point you both keep missing is that it's still better than the alternative
I'm just taking issue with your apparent position of it working as intended. I agree with the fundamentals, but it is like talking about the importance of exercise and healthy eating when sitting bedside with a cancer patient. It's not that these things aren't healthy, but we're wasting time when the poor girl needs chemo and might not even survive the best treatment.
 
The best arguement against democracy is a five minute conversation with the average voter.
And the problem is the lack of alternatives. Unaccountable Byzantine bureaucracy? Not an improvement. Absolute dictatorship/monarchy/etc? Works fine if you have an enlightened leader of the people or whatever, but breaks down immediately when their syphallitic lunatic son inherits the throne (or the Enlightened Leader gets dementia). Communism? "But it wasn't real communism so we tried again and everyone got murdered but it wasn't real communism so we tried again..."
 
People don't immediately agitate for the removal of bad politicians because they're apathetic and misinformed. The causal link isn't with universal suffrage, because under a system without universal suffrage, they would have no means to advocate for reform, nor throw out the leaders they don't like.

Consider the following 4 scenarios:
  • Scenario 1: the citizens have universal suffrage, but are too lazy and ignorant to care. The result: nothing changes.
  • Scenario 2: the citizens have universal suffrage, and are both informed and politically engaged. The result: they force the system to change.
  • Scenario 3: the citizens do not have universal suffrage, and are too lazy and ignorant to care. The result: nothing changes.
  • Scenario 4: the citizens do not have universal suffrage, but are both informed and politically engaged. The result: they have no power to change the system, so nothing changes.
If you want to talk about causal relationships here, it's pretty clear that the problem isn't universal suffrage.
Someone said it before, the difference is that if things suck there is at least a person in the top to blame. Under universal suffrage there's always the gotcha of "you voted so it's your responsibility".
Also a limited group of voters could vote in more complex systems than a "choose one".
 
Wammins once they could vote: prohibition, expanded welfare, divorce benefiting only wammins, endless waves of turd-worlders imported.

Yeah hard pass, after the collapse we should re-evaluate who can vote. No emotional low-information people of any of the 276 genders should vote.

Make that 277, I just saw an attack-helicopter-person fly by the window.

Please respect my pronouns: big-dickus / fat-dickum
 
Wammins once they could vote: prohibition, expanded welfare, divorce benefiting only wammins, endless waves of turd-worlders imported.

Yeah hard pass, after the collapse we should re-evaluate who can vote. No emotional low-information people of any of the 276 genders should vote.

Make that 277, I just saw an attack-helicopter-person fly by the window.

Please respect my pronouns: big-dickus / fat-dickum
You forgot wars they didn't have to fight in.
 
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You forgot wars they didn't have to fight in.
It's actually worse than that, if you look at the White Feather campaigns. They not only did not have to fight in the wars, they were shaming men who didn't even have the ability to vote into going and dying in a trench somewhere, and as near as anyone can tell their actual motives for doing this were so brutally utilitarian and sociopathic that you'd start to wonder why the fuck they were EVER allowed within spitting distance of a franchise that would let them vote in people who could and would absolutely commit more bodies to the pyres of war without so much as a second thought.
 
We should genetically engineer superhuman combat gimps that will guard voting booths. You have to wrestle them and win in order to cast your vote. When not used in the role of poll guards, they will be let free in the wild to devour campers, rape bears, and scare the shit out of various woodland animals so as to put the fear of man into them.
 
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