The FP arc can very well be the moment the rot settled into western animation, resulting in its decade+ long death. It wasn't just a "subverted your expectations" moment, but a full mask off "You (male) don't deserve to be rewarded for your heroics".
It was a character moment for him that allowed him to progress later in the series. If it was comparable to anything, it was his Jason Todd or Gwen Stacy moment, a big event where aspects of his character led to an irreversible mistake he now has to live with and pick himself up from. And just like those examples, he uses the previous experience to better inform his next relationship. It was harsh, but a necessary pain point towards him being a better hero and more full character by the end.
The series ends off with him having a multitude of well-developed relationships including a GF. He was by far in a better place by season 10 then he was in the beginning or even with FP. He grew to be equals with Marceline and PB, got a great friendship/father substitute with Simon, found his people including his mother, Jake matured, and he got a GF that matches his nature. Not to mention his consistent building of cosmic deities and former heroes accepting him, with him being pushed into reincarnation and ultimate good of the universe.
Seasons 5&6 were a challenge and breakdown which he overcame, season 7-10 then allowed him to build up wins. Writers took a risk, but I think it paid off long term.
It was a character moment for him that allowed him to progress later in the series. If it was comparable to anything, it was his Jason Todd or Gwen Stacy moment, a big event where aspects of his character led to an irreversible mistake he now has to live with and pick himself up from. And just like those examples, he uses the previous experience to better inform his next relationship. It was harsh, but a necessary pain point towards him being a better hero and more full character by the end.
If it was a story for young adults like Harry Potter, then I might have agreed. But Adventure Time was always a show for children, so the relationship drama is out of place (and probably detrimental to children watching), and from memory it was very direct in Finn being in the wrong for expecting a girlfriend for being a hero.
The series ends off with him having a multitude of well-developed relationships including a GF. He was by far in a better place by season 10 then he was in the beginning or even with FP. He grew to be equals with Marceline and PB, got a great friendship/father substitute with Simon, found his people including his mother, Jake matured, and he got a GF that matches his nature. Not to mention his consistent building of cosmic deities and former heroes accepting him, with him being pushed into reincarnation and ultimate good of the universe.
Adventure Time building "deep lore" and relationship drama is a blight on the genre and wouldn't be surprised it caused so many zoomers to lose their minds.
Thanks for the recommendation, I didn't know that even existed.
I knew about Adventure Time beacuse many years ago when I watched TV they would put it on, this stuff either isn't, or is post me abandoning TV altogether.
Funny this comes up now, as I'm re-watching Fionna and Cake atm. I like both seasons a lot. Season 2 is almost a textbook study into the minds of gay race communists yearning for utopia, but it's still a good story and they managed to avoid one of the cardinal sins most studios commit when the PG-13 brakes are taken off: they don't use the freedom to swear constantly or be gratuitously sexual. It's very restrained. Rare instance of animators not behaving like children.
Moreover there's something that shocked me: both these seasons are directed by Adam Muto - but they're well done. In OG Adventure Time, things pretty much peter out and become listless by Season 5 when Ward stepped back and Muto stepped forward. I maybe should have guessed at this from the mini-series eps like Stakes and Islands - but Muto is actually not bad at storytelling or keeping things from getting too esoteric - he just sucks at short-form content. Give him a chance to tell the story over an hour or two and he does really solid work.
If it was a story for young adults like Harry Potter, then I might have agreed. But Adventure Time was always a show for children, so the relationship drama is out of place (and probably detrimental to children watching), and from memory it was very direct in Finn being in the wrong for expecting a girlfriend for being a hero.
It came out back when CN was going for an older audience. It and Regular Show were notably more adult than other shows and they had a large teen/adult audience from the beginning for being so. The show progressed with time, meaning the children who watched it were older by the point the relationship drama came in.
Finn spent the first part of the series trying to rizz up an 18 year old while he was 12. Bubblegum wasn't even mean to him about it creating more problems since she wasn't firm in setting boundaries. Most of Finn getting called out was when he was clearly doing bizarre, honestly lol-cow tier things like trying to cuddle up on Bubblegum's lap like a dog, or The Little People episode where he was creepily playing out scenarios like getting with his best friend's wife. He needed a reality check as his behavior wasn't healthy for either him or anyone around him.
Season 5 when Ward stepped back and Muto stepped forward. I maybe should have guessed at this from the mini-series eps like Stakes and Islands - but Muto is actually not bad at storytelling or keeping things from getting too esoteric - he just sucks at short-form content. Give him a chance to tell the story over an hour or two and he does really solid work.
There was allegedly some network interference during his initial takeover. Certain storylines got botched when the CN heads came in. A big example I heard is the Finn arm drama, which was supposed to be a status quo shift of Finn losing an arm till CN's marketing department didn't like the change.
Muto shouldn't get full credit for the shift. Seasons 3+4 were already heading into more story driven direction with Finn getting over PB, the Ice King/Simon revelations and introduction to FP. A lot of seeds were planted fairly early on
Muto shouldn't get full credit for the shift however. Seasons 3+4 were already heading into more story driven direction with Finn getting over PB, the Ice King/Simon revelations and introduction to FP. A lot of seeds were planted fairly early on
I basically re-watched everything over the past month and was surprised to see that Finn losing his arm was telegraphed very early on. Also that the animation was much better in season one (particularly the facial expressions) before they streamlined the production.
It's a pretty natural progression of any TV show to start with the premise and go crazy with it, then mellow out and go for lore/depth as the seasons stretch on. The best shows use the 'answers that raise more questions' method so they don't run the well dry, but AT didn't do that. They decided to husband their handful of core mysteries/backstories instead, and just dive into them on occasion. When they wanted something fresh they'd just drop a new scenario into the world and build a story around it - but it tended to feel disconnected, as they'd rarely callback to those scenarios as time went on.
I really didn't mind stuff like Finn becoming an amputee or his dad being a deadbeat. Life is full of disappointments. But they were kind of shallow with it. On the one hand, Finn is a character who deals with deep problems by ignoring them, but they didn't do a good job of showing it eating at him regardless.
Regular Show were notably more adult than other shows and they had a large teen/adult audience from the beginning for being so. The show progressed with time, meaning the children who watched it were older by the point the relationship drama came in.
The arm was supposed to go on longer, allegedly. CN caped it with Breezy as marketing Finn as an amputee now ran the risk of brand damage or something.
The Problem Solvers were just this, want to say Robotomy as well. Would also suspect Secret Mountain Fort Awesome was an Adult Swim refugee.
After the success of Total Drama, CN became incredibly lenient towards older-leaning shows on the children's network. Regular Show and MAD did not shy away from mild adult language and content. CN really rebranded themselves as the teen stoner network from 2010-2013 and hit one of their biggest success phases doing so.
After the success of Total Drama, CN became incredibly lenient towards older-leaning shows on the children's network. Regular Show and MAD did not shy away from mild adult language and content. CN really rebranded themselves as the teen stoner network from 2010-2013 and hit one of their biggest success phases doing so.
This was a large problem with the relationship and the main thing that set the stage for its later issues. FP had little of her own drive or character, simply existing to be Finn’s GF. She was cute and perfectly represents a passionate, fiery love, but not the long term stability either needed.
I mean in a sense I think this was just a larger problem with Adventure Time. It often had weak or inconsistent characterization. But, for FP, it kind of makes sense. She'd spent her entire life in a bubble, and wanted to get out to see the world. Finn would've been a good way to do that, which is why I think it's kind of surprising that FP didn't take to adventuring.
Finn tried to be her friend, in his own way. He wasn't very good at it, but the attraction always seemed more than superficial to me. Immature, sure, but they were kids. That's expected.
She found herself and what she wanted, then took on the responsibilities of a leader. She moved on and was able to decipher the issues with the relationship way before Finn, even if her no lies and full honesty policy was extreme. Finn meanwhile needed two additional years and tons of character growth moments to understand why calling your girlfriend stinky and blaming her for not meeting your physical needs is a bad thing.
Did Finn blame her for that? Did Finn really even know what needs FP wasn't meeting? He was, what, 13 or 14 when that stuff happened? It's hard to tell how much of it was just trying to keep the show child safe, but it seems like he didn't even know what an erotic dream really was. This isn't necessarily that farfetched. Jake had told him about the sexual tiers, but... it's Jake. One of those tiers was "discovering all 15 feet of her (Lady Rainicorn's) long, beautiful stomach". It really seems like Finn had little to no understanding of what he was going through.
That's true, but that was for reasons that hadn't happened yet. He had lost both his sovereign, and his best friend. It's pretty strongly demonstrated that Finn just didn't know what to do with himself after Jake died. Bubblegum lacked the people skills to keep Finn as either a good friend or an agent. Had she been slightly less autistic, Finn might have stayed as her champion, even if there was no romance involved. Instead he ended up with Huntress Wizard, who's just as much of a wanderer. I think Finn might have turned out very different if he'd had more stabilizing influences.
On reflection, keeping in mind it's been quite a few years since I watched large chunks of Adventure Time, it seems like what FP was really looking for was honesty. Which might explain Cinnamon Bun, and at least some of why she overcorrected as a ruler. Finn was usually pretty good at that, until he fucked up horribly.
I really feel like most of their problems were down to young age and lack of good mentors rather than inherent incompatibility.
I've probably sperged enough. Just one more thing I'd like to contribute. One million years dungeon MSpaint.
The arm was supposed to go on longer, allegedly. CN caped it with Breezy as marketing Finn as an amputee now ran the risk of brand damage or something.
I do remember some squawking and controversy at the time, and it does seem like something a studio would push back on - maybe worried that kids won't run in circles pretending to be a one-armed Finn - but they kept giving the character prosthetic arms anyway, so I don't see the big deal. If the prosthetics was the compromise with the executives, it was a good compromise.
Dear Flame Princess,
You're just the worst. Your hair is bad, your feet smell like face cheeks, your stupid candles smell heinous and you can't even kiss Finn without totes freakin' out!
The letter was a little too specific to just fully ignore. He either went out of his way to say things that would specifically hurt her or just revealed some true feelings, neither of which looks good.
I do remember some squawking and controversy at the time, and it does seem like something a studio would push back on - maybe worried that kids won't run in circles pretending to be a one-armed Finn
From my understanding, CN didn't like the change in design as they would have to remake Finn in promotional material to include a prosthetic, which was a hard sell for their most popular at-the-time series. Breezy ended up giving Finn back his natural arm to keep design status quo.
Years later they would do it again with Reboot, but by that point, I think AT was dethroned from being the cash cow and was only there for legacy reasons rather than being a major player for the network. There was a stark contrast between 2014 and late 2016 CN, what with TTG becoming the breadwinner in that time. By that point, the network didn't really advertise AT as much, so I would assume they stopped caring.
Sorry, I guess I missed a hidden part of the thread's description where it was stated that "discuss animation" is a code word for shipping sperging and waifu bitching from finfags, yuck
My turn to be autistic!
I think Gravity Falls handled the 'unrequited crush/girls arent rewards' thing a bit better tbh, or at least more age appropriate for the demographic of the network with less melodrama.
I vaguely remember watching the PB and FP arcs as a kid and I mostly just found it uncomfortable/confusing even as someone used to relationship drama in shows.
12 yo Dipper has this hopeless crush on this 15 yo girl, does some embarrassing things in an attempt to impress her, and ends up losing to her 16 yo emo boyfriend multiple times, although he's still developing his friendship with her. Eventually, he does manage to break them up by exposing something shitty the boyfriend did, but he doesn't get the girl as a reward, since thats not how it works.
Shes well aware of his crush, and eventually ends up letting him down gently while still staying good friends. He has trouble getting over her, gets some flirting advice from his great uncle and becomes a bit of a wannabe playboy in 1 episode (generally considered the worst episode in the show tbf) in an attempt to move on which ends up biting him in the ass because he didnt go about it in the right/respectful way, but all is well by the end of the episode, and he has proven to himself that he could get a girl if he tried.
(And then over the course of the show he also develops his friendship with Pacifica and gets hinted at having a (mutual) crush on her now in supplemental materials like books to throw the people who really want to ship Dipper with someone (for some reason) a bone.)
And this is all within the span of like 40 episodes max between meeting Wendy and moving on, which is not too difficult to keep track of for young minds. The lesson was a lot easier to absorb imo. Meanwhile, it took what, 280 episodes between introducing Bubblegum and the end of Finns romance arc? I dont think most of the audience watching the FP stuff was still around to see him score with Huntress Wizard by that point.
It came out back when CN was going for an older audience. It and Regular Show were notably more adult than other shows and they had a large teen/adult audience from the beginning for being so. The show progressed with time, meaning the children who watched it were older by the point the relationship drama came in.
Besides the obvious issue with having young adult content in a child focused channel. The relationship dramas in those shows are even beyond what 14 year olds should know, and like I said, they have ruined an entire generation with ideas of toxicity in relationship before that generation even reached that point.
Finn spent the first part of the series trying to rizz up an 18 year old while he was 12. Bubblegum wasn't even mean to him about it creating more problems since she wasn't firm in setting boundaries. Most of Finn getting called out was when he was clearly doing bizarre, honestly lol-cow tier things like trying to cuddle up on Bubblegum's lap like a dog, or The Little People episode where he was creepily playing out scenarios like getting with his best friend's wife. He needed a reality check as his behavior wasn't healthy for either him or anyone around him.
That is acceptable for a show for children who clumsily try to emulate their parents and depictions in media. Even if it's cringy it's not something to demonize because it's how children act.
