Western Animation - Discuss American, Canadian, and European cartoons here (or just bitch about wokeshit, I guess)

[OmnipotentStupidity]

You're essentially trying to pin something on him that he never actually said. Here's the statement he made:

"I've said this before, but Velma in Mystery Incorporated is not bi. She's gay. We always planned on Velma acting a little off and out of character while she was dating Shaggy because that relationship was wrong for her and she had unspoken difficulty with the why. There are hints about the why in that episode with the mermaid, and if you follow the entire Marcie arc it seems as clear as we could make it 10 years ago."

He made this comment on an Instagram post which read:

"I obviously don't represent every version of Velma Dinkley, but I am one of the key people that represents this one."

Fair, I didn't realize he corrected that statement on Instagram, but:

I don't see what's objectionable about this. He tried to allude to Velma being gay in his show ten years ago as well as you could at the time, which you really couldn't.

Here's the other thing: the way he did this was a bit strange. In Mystery Incorporated, the show doesn't really address this head-on until the very end of the show. And when they finally did address it as bluntly as possible, it was weird. The show ends with a massive time reset that completely changes the history of Crystal Cove, its inhabitants, and everyone in it leads completely different lives (including the lives of the gang's families), but the gang still remembers all of the past events of the show proper. Also in this reset timeline, Marcie specifically says that Velma and her are girlfriends (which means that part of that relationship would be time travel induced and deal with timeline self displacement fuckery which is a BIG fuckin' weird can of worms that I do not wanna open right now). But throughout the whole show, and even when we "followed Marcie's arc", as Tony put it, pre-timeline reboot: it's pretty clear that Marcie didn't really like Velma (she kept losing in past science fairs to Velma and that was part of the reason why she ended up working for Mr. E for half of the show), albeit she does slowly warm up to her over time. By around the second season you might see her and Velma wave at each other and be more friendly to Mystery Inc., but that was about it AFAIK. The rest of the time it focused on the plot, unless it was focusing on Velma's relationship with Shaggy. And the only reason their relationship got broken up wasn't because Velma secretly had feelings for women: it was because Scooby was acting like a jealous diva to Velma once Shaggy and her started going out. If anything, they made Scooby REALLY gay for Shaggy. To the point that it wasn't even subtle: it was shoved straight in your face and sometimes comprised a number of B-plots. By the end of the show, Velma also never really reciprocates any of the supposed feelings she has for Marcie. Marcie WAS gay for Velma by that point, absolutely (she basically evolved into a tsundere in the second season) but Velma never really showed much affection until then. And even that's debatable.

He also brings up the mermaid episode as a way to drop hints to the audience that she was gay, which is...

I'll put it this way: I can definitely see what they were trying to do if they were trying to hint at Velma being a lesbian, but it's a lot of really, really weak hints if so. I'll give it that the episode starts with the gang constantly pushing their relationships in Velma's face and Velma being protective of the mermaid. The issue is that it's not written like "Oh I came to see you because I felt I could trust you enough with this info" or "You're the only one I've ever met who's x or y to me" or anything like that, it's always in service of the plot: the anonymous woman contacts Velma through her blog, she came to Velma because of some bullshit happening in the lake that caused her to need to leave, she only chose Velma because she was the only one she had talked to involved in Mystery Inc., Velma's not hiding her because she can shapeshift into a woman or some shit and her parents may find it weird, it's because she's a mermaid and her parents would freak the fuck out if there's a fish girl there in their bathtub, and the big one: she's straight, and she makes it clear she's only talking to Velma to get her husband back really early on. It's very exposition-y and a means to drive the plot (and not Velma's feelings) forward, if you catch my drift. The only other time I can kinda see it being a hint is when she decides not to tell her other friends about what's going on so she can keep her to herself for jealousy reasons, because now she has a "mystery" of her own to deal with. Even though this is right when the gang gets entangled in that same mystery sans the info about the mermaid anyways, so it just feels kinda pointless and irrational to do that. But maybe that was the point? That she's irrational because she's in love with her?

I mean, I'll concede that maybe they had to keep it in service of the plot because corporate was breathing down their neck until the very last episode, and I may be forgetting about some parts of that episode because I haven't watched the show in awhile but even from the clips that I checked before writing this just to make sure: there's subtext and subtlety, and then there's grasping and that episode was kinda bordering on the latter. (Kinda, not entirely.)

Though, more to the point:

He tried to allude to Velma being gay in his show ten years ago as well as you could at the time, which you really couldn't.

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you on this: The Legend of Korra, Adventure Time, MLP, and Young Justice had either already aired, or were currently airing, by the time Mystery Incorporated came around and were able to make their gay/bi/poly/whatever representation a lot more obvious by comparison (Korra/Asami and Marceline/Princess Bubblegum immediately come to my mind). I'm not saying it never happened or that they weren't restricted, and obviously none of them were Steven Universe levels of open about it by that point, but to say you couldn't really show any gay representation in the early 2010's feels like a bit of an exaggeration; MI could've done a bit more to show that if that was the case instead of having a minor character have gay flirtations in a season, an episode that TMK you could find subtext if you squinted hard enough, and really onlyaddressing it during the last minutes of the show. Them retroactively justifying it years later going "Yeah that was our plan all along. Yep. All totally intentional." to me just feels like they're doing it for attention.

EDIT: I just thought of this as I was away: even that quote from the guy doesn't make a lot of sense.

I've said this before, but Velma in Mystery Incorporated is not bi. She's gay. We always planned on Velma acting a little off and out of character while she was dating Shaggy because that relationship was wrong for her.

"Oh she wasn't bi, she just had to realize she wasn't attracted to the other sex by dating them heterosexually to realize that!"

So then she wasn't gay for the majority of the run, she was bicurious. That's what bisexuality means.

I realize this is splitting hairs but if she was supposed to be gay the whole time, she wouldn't have had any attraction to Shaggy whatsoever in the series, which was very much not the case, especially in Season 2. Granted, he says they would've gone more into her being gay later if they had had more time, but: either you're gay or you aren't. It's not a choice. Hence why people thought she was bicurious and that was used as a stepping stone to her realizing she was gay in the finale.

But according to him, she wasn't ever bi in any sense. Which just doesn't square with what the team wrote.

 

[AnOminous]

"I've said this before, but Velma in Mystery Incorporated is not bi. She's gay. We always planned on Velma acting a little off and out of character while she was dating Shaggy because that relationship was wrong for her and she had unspoken difficulty with the why. There are hints about the why in that episode with the mermaid, and if you follow the entire Marcie arc it seems as clear as we could make it 10 years ago."

Why would anyone have any reason to think it wasn't awkward because just, you know, it was Shaggy.

 

[PS1gamenwatch]

I rewatched the Looney Tunes cartoon Robin Hood Makes Good and noticed something:

Why does the calendar say 2004? Was this short meant to take place in the future?

Why would anyone have any reason to think it wasn't awkward because just, you know, it was Shaggy.

Forget Shaggy what about these?

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

I'm gonna have to respectfully disagree with you on this: The Legend of Korra, Adventure Time, MLP, and Young Justice had either already aired, or were currently airing, by the time Mystery Incorporated came around and were able to make their gay/bi/poly/whatever representation a lot more obvious by comparison (Korra/Asami and Marceline/Princess Bubblegum immediately come to my mind). I'm not saying it never happened or that they weren't restricted, and obviously none of them were Steven Universe levels of open about it by that point, but to say you couldn't really show any gay representation in the early 2010's feels like a bit of an exaggeration; MI could've done a bit more to show that if that was the case instead of having a minor character have gay flirtations in a season, an episode that TMK you could find subtext if you squinted hard enough, and really onlyaddressing it during the last minutes of the show. Them retroactively justifying it years later going "Yeah that was our plan all along. Yep. All totally intentional." to me just feels like they're doing it for attention.

A good part of those shows ran late into the decade. You act as if they were doing it in the first few seasons, which they weren't. I remember the way things were at the time. Gay relationships were still taboo in children's animation and it wasn't until midway through the decade that things really began to break down.

(And one of those relationships was exactly a "I'm gonna say they're gay even though it was never in the show" relationship.)

"Oh she wasn't bi, she just had to realize she wasn't attracted to the other sex by dating them heterosexually to realize that!"

So then she wasn't gay for the majority of the run, she was bicurious. That's what bisexuality means.

I realize this is splitting hairs but if she was supposed to be gay the whole time, she wouldn't have had any attraction to Shaggy whatsoever in the series, which was very much not the case, especially in Season 2. Granted, he says they would've gone more into her being gay later if they had had more time, but: either you're gay or you aren't. It's not a choice. Hence why people thought she was bicurious and that was used as a stepping stone to her realizing she was gay in the finale.

But according to him, she wasn't ever bi in any sense. Which just doesn't square with what the team wrote.

Either that or she was sexually confused, which is how I interpreted it - that is, Velma wasn't really sure she was gay and was trying to have a relationship with Shaggy because she thought she could still be heterosexual.

 

[OmnipotentStupidity]

A good part of those shows ran late into the decade. You act as if they were doing it in the first few seasons, which they weren't. I remember the way things were at the time. Gay relationships were still taboo in children's animation and it wasn't until midway through the decade that things really began to break down.

??? The only shows that even made it past 2014 were Adventure Time and MLP, the rest got 2-3 seasons and were cancelled (or with Young Justice were revived just recently). I get outright kissing or having a wedding, or having them be a consistent couple on-screen was taboo back then, but I dunno: I feel like you don't need to be that explicit in order to get the point across that they're gay, poly, asexual, etc. if you write the relationship well enough - me personally, I'd prefer if most shows these were a bit more subtle about it as it feels more organic showing it over time, unless they can pull it off with enough grace and tact to warrant it, but that’s neither here nor there.

(And one of those relationships was exactly a "I'm gonna say they're gay even though it was never in the show" relationship.)

Which one? MLP in the series finale where Rainbow Dash and Applejack became a thing? If so, then...yeah fair. I hadn't watched the show for a long time up until the finale because people wouldn't shut up about it and assumed that the show over time pushed that angle for those two, but apparently they didn't. And in retrospect, it was really dumb of me to have that on the list since, even before that, the show's "first gay couple" outside of those two, that being some one off characters, was still back in 2019.

The rest, I dunno: Bubblegum and Marceline was fairly obvious, especially by the end of "What Was Missing" in 2011, where we went from the two sorta knowing and hating each other on a first-name basis, to Bubblegum keeping pajamas Marceline gave her, and especially with her song “I’m Just Your Problem” which Sugar explicitly pretty much wrote as an ex-break-up kinda song. They just made it incredibly obvious in the finale when they kissed.

Korra and Asami's relationship was established as early as Book 1 shown as best as they could up until the end where, instead of kissing they just had them “hold hands” because of Nick corporate (until the Book Four comic).

And K’haldumur or whatever his name was from Young Justice I’m pretty sure was as bi as you could make him in the original 2 seasons after his crush on Tula fell through, before the revival, Outsiders just outright said he likes guys and ladies.

Don’t misunderstand me: I get what you’re saying, and for a lot of studios back in the 2010’s gay relationships were still taboo (and to an extent they still are; even shows like Gravity Falls in 2016 couldn’t outright admit their characters were gay until the very end, and shows that’re still going on like The Loud House, Craig of the Creek, etc. still can’t outright state they’re gay even when it’s very clear they’re a couple), but I just can’t agree with the assessment that having gays in your cartoons, even back in the early 2010’s, was that taboo to the point where they basically never established it until post-2015.

Either that or she was sexually confused, which is how I interpreted it - that is, Velma wasn't really sure she was gay and was trying to have a relationship with Shaggy because she thought she could still be heterosexual.

So again, just like I said with Tony: she was bicurious. That's the whole thing about being bicurious: that you're confused about who you're attracted to, so you experiment until you realize you're gay. And that's how most fans, and how you and I apparently, originally interpreted it which makes sense.

The issue comes from the fact that he said she was never bi, that she was explicitly gay and was always intended to be throughout the show, and then immediately saying why she'd be sexually confused and need to date around. Again, I get it's splitting hairs, but if the guy insists upon it, then the fans have every right to insist upon why that's not how it came across.

EDIT: Also keep in mind; I ultimately think this entire debate is fucking stupid to begin with and the guy just should’ve let fans believe whatever because why the fuck do people care this much about if some kids cartoon character represents their sexuality, but...whatever.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

Korra and Asami's relationship was established as early as Book 1 shown as best as they could up until the end where, instead of kissing they just had them “hold hands” because of Nick corporate (until the Book Four comic).

That's the one. Boy, do I remember how everyone was fellating the show over it, how Dobson was devoting so much of his art to it... and it was basically nothing that post-facto was made into a gay relationship. The lesson being don't make such a big deal out of a gay relationship if it's barely anything. (Same with the Beauty and the Beast remake a few years back.)

It was essentially taboo to say a character was gay in the early 2010s in kids' cartoons, and if you can't say it, you have to hint at it - and even hinting at it was going to get you in trouble. You had to be subtle enough to get it through the censor. Only in the last few years have things changed to the point where you can have gay characters in kids' cartoons and have them be more overt about it.

So again, just like I said with Tony: she was bicurious. That's the whole thing about being bicurious: that you're confused about who you're attracted to, so you experiment until you realize you're gay. And that's how most fans, and how you and I apparently, originally interpreted it which makes sense.

The issue comes from the fact that he said she was never bi, that she was explicitly gay and was always intended to be throughout the show, and then immediately saying why she'd be sexually confused and need to date around. Again, I get it's splitting hairs, but if the guy insists upon it, then the fans have every right to insist upon why that's not how it came across.

EDIT: Also keep in mind; I ultimately think this entire debate is fucking stupid to begin with and the guy just should’ve let fans believe whatever because why the fuck do people care this much about if some kids cartoon character represents their sexuality, but...whatever.

I read the statement as supporting that she was bicurious, myself. She was intended to be gay in the end, but she was going to experiment until she realized it.

I think it's stupid, myself, but someone involved in a production deserves to have his say about what he intended.

 

[PopRocks]

Who cares, MI Velma was a cunt. Which is a shame since her design was the cutest of them all.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

In other news... some of you may have heard that Universal has its own streaming service now.

Here's what they have animation wise.

Some of these names I haven't heard in a long while... while others are surprising. Some are a plus - I mean, Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat? I'm surprised they don't have more Classic Media content, not even a retro section... but all will come in time. I guess.

 

[Private Pyle]

the guy just should’ve let fans believe whatever because why the fuck do people care this much about if some kids cartoon character represents their sexuality, but...whatever.

Plus, this is the modern cartoon fandoms. Even if he said Velma was always supposed to be straight as a board, fans would find someway to make her gay or just go “death of the author sweetie”.
Because authors intent only matters if it’s in agreement with the fandom.

 

[Munchingonfish]

In other news... some of you may have heard that Universal has its own streaming service now.

Here's what they have animation wise.

Some of these names I haven't heard in a long while... while others are surprising. Some are a plus - I mean, Twisted Tales of Felix the Cat? I'm surprised they don't have more Classic Media content, not even a retro section... but all will come in time. I guess.

The apex of western animation.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

By the way, I didn't notice this at first but they also have the infamous DreamWorks flop Father of the Pride.

 

[Commander X]

Netflix proudly announces it's latest "original" animated hack sitcom. I think if you work in Hollywood and attempt to create an animated series that is not a noodle-armed cartoon sitcom
you end up being dragged off by company men and imprisoned in a secret 'black site'.

Hahahaha ugly cartoon man says fuck word repeatedly in front of children. so funny. Jokes are funny when they are long.

 

[IdaRita]

I think the main problem with MI Velma being "gay" is that they did not communicate it well (if what this producer says is true). Like, everybody can tell Marcie has a thing for Velma. But what one of producers (not scriptwriter and not an executive producer) wrote in that Instagram post after so many years... just don't really click. If they said Velma was bi in this series people would shrug and agree it can be see this way.
I think the problem is that in about 5 years those things went a full 180 from "taboo" to "feels like every new animated show must have a gay character/metaphore/plot, because industry artists are super into it".


BTW, Infinity Train is getting season 3 and it looks really good! And even if it is not thanks to anthology format, it will not ruin previos characters.

 

[PopRocks]

Meant to put this here but laziness got in the way
Indivisible, the "rpg" game from the Skull Girls team, is getting a tv show.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ithin%20her.&usg=AOvVaw0GZGSmG575Yo2TKNZ0lCm3

 

[Yamma Damma]

Meant to put this here but laziness got in the way
Indivisible, the "rpg" game from the Skull Girls team, is getting a tv show.
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiRndPew-jqAhUVgp4KHbwbB5sQFjABegQICxAF&url=https://www.nintendoreporters.com/en/news/general/indivisible-tv-series-announced/#:~:text=About%20Indivisible&text=Our%20story%20revolves%20around%20Ajna,mysterious%20power%20awakens%20within%20her.&usg=AOvVaw0GZGSmG575Yo2TKNZ0lCm3

I'd be happier if they finished the game first. There's like 10 characters that still need to be added.

In other good news, Mao Mao: Heroes of Pure Heart got the greenlight for a second season.

 

[Private Pyle]

Netflix proudly announces it's latest "original" animated hack sitcom. I think if you work in Hollywood and attempt to create an animated series that is not a noodle-armed cartoon sitcom
you end up being dragged off by company men and imprisoned in a secret 'black site'.

Hahahaha ugly cartoon man says fuck word repeatedly in front of children. so funny. Jokes are funny when they are long.

A trailer that tells me almost nothing about the premise and consists of one unfunny joke stretched MacFarlane style. Maybe (that’s a strong maybe) this show will be decent against the odds but holy shit Netflix dropped the ball on the trailer.
And you know, for all it’s faults, I can at least appreciate Hazbin Hotel for having an artstyle that actually tries to have style and isn’t just aping Family Guy and Rick & Morty. Same with another hell cartoon, Satina.
Hm, starting to notice a pattern between indie and corporate cartoons.

I think the main problem with MI Velma being "gay" is that they did not communicate it well (if what this producer says is true). Like, everybody can tell Marcie has a thing for Velma. But what one of producers (not scriptwriter and not an executive producer) wrote in that Instagram post after so many years... just don't really click. If they said Velma was bi in this series people would shrug and agree it can be see this way.
I think the problem is that in about 5 years those things went a full 180 from "taboo" to "feels like every new animated show must have a gay character/metaphore/plot, because industry artists are super into it".


BTW, Infinity Train is getting season 3 and it looks really good! And even if it is not thanks to anthology format, it will not ruin previos characters.

I’m impressed by how IT handles returning characters. Their first appearances never feel like an advertisement for the next season but when they take the spotlight, it feels like an organic and natural progression. The anthology format helps keep things fresh plot wise.
I am a little bummed that it’s been wiped from all CN channels and is now HBO Max exclusive, especially if they dump all the episodes at once.

I'd be happier if they finished the game first. There's like 10 characters that still need to be added.

In other good news, Mao Mao: Heroes of Pure Heart got the greenlight for a second season.

On the flip side, glad to see Mao Mao is still on CN and is now heading for a second season. It’s a breath of fresh air compared to anything else that’s on the channel right now.

 

[Dark Emporer Dood]

Netflix proudly announces it's latest "original" animated hack sitcom. I think if you work in Hollywood and attempt to create an animated series that is not a noodle-armed cartoon sitcom
you end up being dragged off by company men and imprisoned in a secret 'black site'.

You forget the dead, blank radio-knob eyes that're clearly just copy pasted.

You could get that same level of humor and animation just by looking up an old GoAnimate video made up by some 13 year old, I dont get why Netflix funds some of the shows that it does.

Animated in GoAnimate!

 

[Commander X]

Meanwhile, Cartoon Network has dropped any pretense towards creativity and is showcasing animation that goes beyond beanmouth to straight-forward beans.

Oh, the blue thing is supposed to be a beetle, what the-

 

[SteelPlatedHeart]

 

[DeadwastePrime]

oh good theyre spies again