What is the deal with authoritarians and learned helplessness?

This is something else loberts have a fixation with, the myth of "rights" as if they somehow exist and are real and are not just a synonym for privileges that have been granted by (higher) power that by having possession of you are implicitly submitting to the will of.
There is a cognitive dissonance in that this "power" for lolberts exists in a state of interregnum in that instead of human will they substitute shit like "market forces" or "natural" law or some other such nonsense euphemism for the implication of violence.
It's impossible to deny that rights exist without contradicting yourself.

Imagine a situation in which I pretend to have such a thing as natural rights and act on them. Someone tries to steal my wallet, I shoot them in the leg.
If you try to argue that I had no right to do that, then what does that mean?
At the very least, having a right to X means that you are justified to use force when someone tries to prevent you from doing X. If you argue that I had no right to shoot the robber, then you are asserting that the robber had a right not to be shot.
Do you see the contradiction there?
The only thing a right skepticist can do is shut his mouth, because by speaking up, he is contradicting his own position.
 
It exists in the overwhelming majority of situations in the overwhelming majority of locations.
When you are eating dinner at home with your family, all of you are respecting each other's rights.
The state itself is so absolutely toxic and corrupting that every second it exists makes everything worse. Just one letter in the mail, just one deduction on your paycheck.
Thr free market obviously can't figure out how to carry out society fully without violent force being used in certain situations. Anywhere the state exists, it exists there because the free market was defeated in that arena.

Why would someone eat dinner at home with his family? Nobody is being paid to be there.
 
just let people negotiate and have the price be determined by supply and demand
I believe that in a "free market society" with no government oversight the events would proceed like this:
1. Alice needs to buy essential goods from Bob (drinking water, for example).
2. Because Bob controls the water supply and there's high demand for water, he jacks the prices way up, creating artificial water scarcity.
3. In order to afford water, local farmer Chuck raises the prices of his own goods (seed & feed), creating secondary artificial scarcity.
4. Alice dies, because she is not able to afford enough water, seed & feed for her survival.
5. Alice's brother Dave gets mad at Bob and kills him. Dave proceeds to sell water at a reasonable price (if not, then the same scenario will play out until the price becomes reasonable).
6. In order to determine what prices are "reasonable" and to prevent further deaths, a regulatory body is naturally formed (a government is created).

A state of anarchy is inherently unstable and fleeting; whenever anarchy occurs, warlords naturally emerge and take control of the region, creating a government (for precedent see the history of every nation ever).
Governments are not cooperative institutions. Unless being threatened at gunpoint counts as cooperation to you.
Government is the specific agency in a society that obtains its income not by voluntarily paying customers, but through extortion and expropriation.
For cooperation to occur there must be rules, and rules necessarily involve restrictions.
the vast majority of "people" are potential niggers
That's a misanthropic view, probably caused by living in a low-trust society.
In my experience most people just want to be left alone, don't want to hurt anyone, and often are selflessly altruistic.
 
It's impossible to deny that rights exist without contradicting yourself.

Imagine a situation in which I pretend to have such a thing as natural rights and act on them. Someone tries to steal my wallet, I shoot them in the leg.
If you try to argue that I had no right to do that, then what does that mean?
At the very least, having a right to X means that you are justified to use force when someone tries to prevent you from doing X. If you argue that I had no right to shoot the robber, then you are asserting that the robber had a right not to be shot.
Do you see the contradiction there?
The only thing a right skepticist can do is shut his mouth, because by speaking up, he is contradicting his own position.
You are making the error of putting human behaviour and it's moral justification in the box of logic and rational thought, this admirably Teutonic of you but ultimately incorrect in application outside the constraints of hypotheticals.
"rights" are a social fiction, and as a concept are something that are given, that by this nature can also be taken away and are conditional.
There is no contradiction because the "rights" in question are what you'd call a spook.
That's a misanthropic view, probably caused by living in a low-trust society.
In my experience most people just want to be left alone, don't want to hurt anyone, and often are selflessly altruistic.
It's called living in a society, pity me.
 
It's impossible to deny that rights exist without contradicting yourself.

Imagine a situation in which I pretend to have such a thing as natural rights and act on them. Someone tries to steal my wallet, I shoot them in the leg.
If you try to argue that I had no right to do that, then what does that mean?
At the very least, having a right to X means that you are justified to use force when someone tries to prevent you from doing X. If you argue that I had no right to shoot the robber, then you are asserting that the robber had a right not to be shot.
Do you see the contradiction there?
The only thing a right skepticist can do is shut his mouth, because by speaking up, he is contradicting his own position.
Where do natural rights come from? I think you are confusing grammar/communication with reality and you are expecting that a certain combination of words exists like a magic spell that grant ontological significance to your concept of "rights". The concept of "rights" is an idea people use to facilitate conversations about preferable behavior in a society. Rights aren't real in the same way that the state and the free market aren't real things that exist in the world, but rather how we refer to the way people organize and coordinate their behavior.

God damn it. I can't believe a libertarian has dragged me down into the mud with his utterly deranged worldview again. Libertarianism is what happens with someone fetishes logic as the end goal of life and society, rather than a tool used within it to accomplish certain goals. There has to be a native German word for this situation, where people rehash the same arguments over and over trying to solve impossible problems (that problem being no one getting their feelings hurt by reality)
 
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Thr free market obviously can't figure out how to carry out society fully without violent force being used in certain situations.
What do you mean by that?
No serious proponent of the free market denies an unrestricted right to retaliatory, retributive, punitive, and consensual violent force.
The solution to people violating others' rights isn't to turn the other cheek, but to make it the last thing that person has done in their life.
Please do not confuse anarchists and pacifists.
Why would someone eat dinner at home with his family? Nobody is being paid to be there.
What kind of Mickey Mouse nonsense is this?
Humans act in order to obtain a psychic profit. Getting out of bed and brushing your teeth is an entrepreneurial act. Not all profit is monetary or financial.


2. Because Bob controls the water supply and there's high demand for water, he jacks the prices way up, creating artificial water scarcity.
I take an issue with this. How can Bob "control the water supply"?
If there exists only one water supply in the world, then you are not arguing against the free market, you are arguing against monopolies.
Then you would need to examine whether monopolies are more likely, more harmful, and more persistent in a free or in a state society.


You are making the error of putting human behaviour and it's moral justification in the box of logic and rational thought, this admirably Teutonic of you but ultimately incorrect in application outside the constraints of hypotheticals.
I very strongly disagree.
Every human being uses theory, consciously or subconsciously, in their life. Whenever you set one foot in front of another, you are (usually subconsciously) operating on a ton of theory. Theory on how your joints and muscles move, theory on weight transfer and balance, theory on material science with the ground you are stepping on. You are relying on theoretical framework and knowledge whenever you do something in this world.
Nobody is seriously making the argument that everything a human does is somehow the product of intense philosophical thinking.
rights" are a social fiction, and as a concept are something that are given, that by this nature can also be taken away and are conditional.
This is flatly false. The concept of "rights" as being "granted" is ludicrous and nonsensical.
Rights can be deduced from the nature of reality and peaceful coexistence alone.

Where do natural rights come from? I think you are confusing grammar/communication with reality and you are expecting that a certain combination of words exists like a magic spell that grant ontological significance to your concept of "rights".
From nature; it's in the name - "natural" rights. The nature of peaceful coexistence among actors with free will.
Any notion of a "source of rights" indicates the fallacy of primacy of consciousness.

You know what, screw the negrates, I'll go ahead and derive objective law for you, cliffnotes style.

What is law?
Law is a normative standard that deals with justice.
"Normative standard" means law is evaluative. That means that legal theory is what you use to identify a group of criminals and a group of non-criminals, with reference to a norm.
"Justice" means that law prohibits that which is unjust and permits that which is just. When I say that X is just, it means that X can be argumentatively justified. So law is a normative standard which guides people to just actions (instead of unjust ones).
Argumentative justification is a human action that requires scarce means.
Action is defined as purposeful behavior, the implementation of some scarce means towards some end. The means a man employs is necessarily scarce (otherwise it wouldn't be a means), that is to say, his use of it prevents others from being able to use it. In argumentatively justifying anything, a man has to thus concern himself with scarcity.
It is precisely this scarcity that introduces a possibility for interpersonal conflict, defined as contradictory actions. If I am trying to use a stick as a walking cane at the same time that you are trying to use it to stoke a campfire, we have a conflict. The stick its scarce, so I using it prevents you from using it, only one of those two alternatives is able to take place, one action excludes the other.
Because this possibility of interpersonal conflict cannot be ignored in argumentative justification. Any legal theory must assign exclusive property rights to determine the just winner in a given conflict. Law thus identifies which set of people is engaged in a just direction (non-criminals) and which set is engaged in an unjust direction (criminals). In other words, law can't say that a given direction of some means is both just and unjust.

Now the overwhelming majority of retorts to this position are based in legal positivism. Legal positivism is the thesis that the existence and content of law depends on social facts and not its merits. In other words, a legal positivist claims that law is not a subset of ethics, and thus there could be such a thing as a virtuous crime.
To quote the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy:
The positivist thesis does not say that law’s merits are unintelligible, unimportant, or peripheral to the philosophy of law. It says that they do not determine whether laws or legal systems exist. Whether a society has a legal system depends on the presence of certain structures of governance, not on the extent to which it satisfies ideals of justice, democracy, or the rule of law. What laws are in force in that system depends on what social standards its officials recognize as authoritative; for example, legislative enactments, judicial decisions, or social customs. The fact that a policy would be just, wise, efficient, or prudent is never sufficient reason for thinking that it is actually the law, and the fact that it is unjust, unwise, inefficient or imprudent is never sufficient reason for doubting it. According to positivism, law is a matter of what has been posited (ordered, decided, practiced, tolerated, etc.). Austin thought the thesis “simple and glaring”. While it is probably the dominant view among analytically inclined philosophers of law, it is also the subject of competing interpretations together with persistent criticisms and misunderstandings.​
To a legal positivist, law is a description of the specific arrangement of possessions, rather than a theory describing the just arrangement of possessions.
The legal positivist thus makes the claim that law has nothing to do with justice, rather the law is determined by raw might. If A is able to physically defeat B in a conflict and thus perform an action X, the positivist goes only as far as to point and say "A won the conflict, therefore the law on this conflict is that A won".

That is a complete non-theory. So what if A won? It is truly horrifying that people think they can take an entire area of philosophy and replace it with "whoever wins a given conflict has won that conflict".
The legal positivist can't even come up with a theory predicting when people will choose to engage in conflict and who is likely to win.

Even if the legal positivist were to reject the separation of law and justice, with the claim that might makes right, their position is still dead. The "might makes right" theory of law is a form of legal polylogism. It is the claim that the logic of which actions are justifiable can change depending on whether you are able to successfully carry out that action and muscle away anybody who gets in the way.

Legal polylogism has the general problem that it implies contradiction. For there to be different legal codes A, B, C..., A must be incompatible with every other legal code B, C, ... in at least one aspect. If legal codes A and B are incompatible on an action X, A claims it to be just and B claims it to be unjust. The legal polylogist now asserts that both A and B are correct, that X can both be justified and cannot be justified, a contradiction.

Since legal polylogism is false in general, this form of "might makes right" legal polylogism is false also.
The tl;dr is that rights simply are, they don't come from some consciousness whether it's divine or social or individual. The source of rights is not arbitrary thoughts or decrees, but the logic of justification and conflict.
 
Libertarianism is what happens with someone fetishes logic as the end goal of life and society, rather than a tool used within it to accomplish certain goals.
Again a mere caricature.
Libertarianism is a legal theory for the end goal of conflict avoidance.
It is a conflict-avoidant norm.
Any time two people follow libertarian ideas, they manage to coexist peacefully.
As long as you live in a society, libertarianism is the solution to the problem of social order, not some mental masturbation done for reddit karma or whatever weird Mickey Mouse nonsense caricature you have in your mind.
 
Humans act in order to obtain a psychic profit. Getting out of bed and brushing your teeth is an entrepreneurial act. Not all profit is monetary or financial.
And this right here is ultimately where the disagreement is. Ordinary people simply do not conceive of life in this way. Your fetishization of "logic" is simply not shared by the ordinary folk of society and you must learn to deal with this. I know it is upsetting to you. You wouldn't make a thread complaining about people disagreeing with you by calling them the "learned helpless" and "authoritarians" if you weren't upset that people don't see the world the way you do. Life is not just one big market enterprise. This is why libertarianism has never accomplished anything. It does not reckon with life in a realistic way.

That being said, I greatly admire your diligence in translating german news and media for us to better understand how things are going in your world. Please don't regard my posts in this thread as an attack on you or hatred toward you. You are obviously very intelligent and thoughtful, and your posts make this forum a better place. I prefer to exit this argument while sincerely wishing you the best. Cheers.
 
And this right here is ultimately where the disagreement is. Ordinary people simply do not conceive of life in this way.
You do not need to conceive it. It is a simple description of facts.
The same way there is not some computer calculating what happens when you throw a ball. You throw it and it behaves accordingly.
The same way balls are inert, humans have free will and agency. And in having free will and agency, they do things to improve what they perceive to be improvements of their life.
Such as getting out of bed and brushing their teeth. You can go an entire life without learning about a single economic concept or physical concept, but it does not stop you from obeying the laws of physics and the laws of economics.

Logic is descriptive, not prescriptive. I think that is where your misunderstanding comes from.
This is why libertarianism has never accomplished anything. It does not reckon with life in a realistic way.
This is just a denial of science and epistemology altogether.
How do you think people reckon with life?
They gain knowledge. Without knowledge, you would be like a baby that got dropped off in some jungle and tasked to fend for itself.
You can gain knowledge from observation, from experimentation, from deduction.
Also, libertarianism has accomplished a lot. Every time libertarian principles are being obeyed, people prosper. The more libertarian thought and ideas become mainstream, the better off the society that you like so much will be, not just in terms of material or financial wealth, but also mentally and emotionally. Things like suicide and depression are, to a very large part, caused by state interference.
 
I very strongly disagree.
That's fine I can still be objectively correct.
This is flatly false. The concept of "rights" as being "granted" is ludicrous and nonsensical.
Rights can be deduced from the nature of reality and peaceful coexistence alone.
I'll let you in on a secret, "rights" aren't real, just like fiat currency it's a thing that's only as relevant as the faith that's given to them.
Unlike gender, rights and privileges are truly a social constrict, there is no deduction to be had only decision hence the granting/reception of.
You cannot establish them, you cannot prove a negative, at least in English I dunno man maybe it's got a different meaning in deutsch.
 
When you are eating dinner at home with your family, all of you are respecting each other's rights.
And there's no threat of violence or coercion ever associated with domestic labor, of course. There certainly aren't historic and societally significant pieces of literature that advocate for corporal punishment of children who don't clear their plates.
 
Look, there is something you want from someone else.
How do you go about getting that someone else to give it to you?
You can beg them to give it to you.
You can offer to pay them.
You can threaten them and take it by force.
Two of those are nigger behavior.
What if there was a drought and someone had an excessive amount of water far beyond what they'd ever need personally, and was selling bottles of water at $1000 apiece which you cannot afford, and was invulnerable to option #1? Would you say it's wrong to take option #3?
 
One example is a discussion on scalping, unfortunately the thread has been removed, but a similar discussion was happening elsewhere in the Farms.

I have shown logically that scalpers do nothing that is ethically wrong. I have shown that, for scalping to be possible, a certain set of conditions needs to exist. Essentially, scalpers provide a service and solution to the problem of rationing scarce and highly demanded goods.
The comments were full of accusations of retardation, calls to kill and behead scalpers, calls to make scalping illegal, nonsensical assertions that scalpers somehow "create artificial scarcity".
There was not one single person who even made an attempt to show that the logic is wrong, or that the premises are wrong. There were only calls to ban things they don't like.
Scalpers are literal subhuman niggers. You are using Jew logic to make them based, and I don't even think the kikes would try justifying Scalping, they'd just try not to get caught.
To Zoomers Hitler and Stalin are way cooler than lolberts wanting "married gay couples to protect their weed plants with AR15" or however they put it.
Bro I'd rather be in modern America where Trump is going full Roman Dictator than suffer another second listening to weed hippies. Which is to say I love the current state of affairs lmao
 
What if there was a drought and someone had an excessive amount of water far beyond what they'd ever need personally, and was selling bottles of water at $1000 apiece which you cannot afford, and was invulnerable to option #1? Would you say it's wrong to take option #3?
Situations don't happen in a vacuum.
Droughts are predictable, water storage can be organized.
I see nothing wrong with people suffering from stupidity. I see nothing right with using force against clever planners to benefit people suffering from stupidity.
Also, "beyond what they'd ever need personally" is literal commie logic.
i read that op is a lolbert, what is his opinion on buying and selling people???
It's not technologically possible to transfer direct control over your own body to someone else.
Accordingly, any contract or agreement which stipulates such a thing is fraudulent.
This includes slavery as well. If you offer to sell yourself into slavery, you are attempting to defraud someone.
Does that answer your question?
 
Situations don't happen in a vacuum.
Droughts are predictable, water storage can be organized.
I see nothing wrong with people suffering from stupidity. I see nothing right with using force against clever planners to benefit people suffering from stupidity.
Also, "beyond what they'd ever need personally" is literal commie logic.
Not true, tragedies can hit fast and catch people off-guard, so run under that scenario when answering the question.

Commies are right if they just think people shouldn't die of thirst simply due to misfortune and others' sadistic greed.
 
Not true, tragedies can hit fast and catch people off-guard, so run under that scenario when answering the question.

Commies are right if they just think people shouldn't die of thirst simply due to misfortune and others' sadistic greed.
Think about what it means to use violence to expropriate somebody who planned ahead.
It means that person has less of an incentive to plan again in the future. And also reside there.
So they are probably going to move out, meaning that there is one fewer good planner in the community.
Or if they stay, they are going to be less reluctant in being extra well insured, out of worry that some commie dipshits are just gonna expropriate them again. So there will be less to expropriate the next time.
I see no way to justify expropriating them that is not evil.
 
Think about what it means to use violence to expropriate somebody who planned ahead.
Not everybody has the means to horde water.

It means that person has less of an incentive to plan again in the future. And also reside there.
So they are probably going to move out, meaning that there is one fewer good planner in the community.
What good is his planning if all it results in is his insanely overpriced water bottles?

Or if they stay, they are going to be less reluctant in being extra well insured, out of worry that some commie dipshits are just gonna expropriate them again. So there will be less to expropriate the next time.
I see no way to justify expropriating them that is not evil.
So what should the unfortunate thirsty person do when the water hoarder won't budge? Curse God and die?
 
So what should the unfortunate thirsty person do when the water hoarder won't budge? Curse God and die?
In your absolutely ridiculous hypothetical, yes.
Tough luck.

Your hypothetical is better suited as an argument against apocalyptic hypotheticals than anything, really.
Every system in the world can be put into a hypothetical in which the only reasonable answer is "tough luck".
 
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