What is the deal with authoritarians and learned helplessness?

You have no say in the matter.
In a free society, your decisions as a customer can make a difference in law enforcement.
By rejecting libertarianism, you are advocating systems in which you have no say in law enforcement, since that is typically the first thing the state monopolizes
So what you are saying is that if I hire the cops I get better security.

Like private security, or mercenaries, with no police to regulate them?
So can't I just pay them to kill my rival?
Or to confiscate a Magic the Gathering card with Pinkertons?

It would be in their best interest to take my money. As long as they make it look like an accident, they benefit, I benefit, all good.

He couldn't afford the same strength of mercs that I could, so I win. This just sounds like Africa.

Were I older, I could have went to the Party and joined up the police for some prime say in beating robbers.
 
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So what you are saying is that if I hire the cops I get better security.

Like private security, or mercenaries, with no police to regulate them?
So can't I just pay them to kill my rival?
Or to confiscate a Magic the Gathering card with Pinkertons?

It would be in their best interest to take my money. As long as they make it look like an accident, they benefit, I benefit, all good.

He couldn't afford the same strength of mercs that I could, so I win. This just sounds like Africa.

Were I older, I could have went to the Party and joined up the police for some prime say in beating robbers.
Isn't this all true with the current state police, but worse?
Plus, you fail to realize that violence isn't profitable in situations where your only funding is voluntary.
Plus, voluntary police and involuntary police are fundamentally different in terms of how they are set up, you can't just turn one into the other, same with turning men into women. Like, the equipment and organization would need to be completely different.

Plus, Africa is a bunch of corrupt socialist states.
What you are saying is not a criticism that is unique to any system, the question is what can best prevent such a thing from happening, or what the incentives are.

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Isn't this all true with the current state police, but worse?
Plus, you fail to realize that violence isn't profitable in situations where your only funding is voluntary.
Plus, voluntary police and involuntary police are fundamentally different in terms of how they are set up, you can't just turn one into the other, same with turning men into women. Like, the equipment and organization would need to be completely different.

Well after the EU came in it isn't much different. But I can still recall the better times under communism, and the greatest times under nationalism.

What if your funding is done by a third party who doesn't know?
Or if the third party favours you brlecause you are both Mormons or jews or whatever.

You can very easily turn between popo and private security. Maybe not in the Nigger and Cartel infested USA where a cop must be a meth zombie fighter in a tank, but in Europe it is 1 to 1.

My story about a cop hanging a guy from his feet on the bridge wasn't my own tale, I heard it from a cop who got better offer and was working as private security.
 
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What if your funding is done by a third party who doesn't know?
Or if the third party favours you brlecause you are both Mormons or jews or whatever.

You can very easily turn between popo and private security. Maybe not in the Nigger and Cartel infested USA where a cop must be a meth zombie fighter in a tank, but in Europe it is 1 to 1.
I honestly don't know what you are trying to argue with these "what-if" scenarios.
Whoever violates the NAP will be penalized.
And if you are worried about monopolies, then why do you think we need an involuntary monopoly of force to stop warlords/monopolies?
 
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What if I just pay them to look the other way?
Everybody has the right to enforce the NAP, including you and me. There is no such thing as a strict dependency on some official enforcer to do it.
If you pay A to look the other way, you haven't simultaneously paid all other 8 billion people on this planet to look the other way.
 
Everybody has the right to enforce the NAP, including you and me. There is no such thing as a strict dependency on some official enforcer to do it.
If you pay A to look the other way, you haven't simultaneously paid all other 8 billion people on this planet to look the other way.
So do all 8 billion people use telepathy? Or watch webcams on it? Maybe Styx Chaos remote viewing?

Gypsy A wants to marry Gypsy B, the 12 year old daughter of Gypsy C.

They all consent. The whole gypsy ghetto consents.

The Spanish Popo don't.

Cue AN article about outrage in Spain after arrest and the judge letting him go with community service.
 
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Gypsy A wants to marry Gypsy B, the 12 year old daughter of Gypsy C.

They all consent. The whole gypsy ghetto consents.
Okay, we're opening the can of worms that is the rights of children.

Before anyone gets their panties in a twist, consider the following.

In order to have a theory of the rights of children, it must be clear what the nature of a child is.
In the context of law and rights, I think it makes the most sense to recognize that it is not physical, but mental development which defines childhood.
For instance, paraplegics like Stephen Hawking are incapable of commanding their body to do certain tasks, but they may still be adults. Although these disabled people lack certain abilities that are standard in most humans, they do not lack the characteristic mark of action, just the ability to wield many means which others take for granted.
So the defining mark of childhood in this context is psychological, as opposed to physiological immaturity.

From this nature of childhood, we can deduce that it is not a one-time switch flip, but it is possible for a given person to move in and out of psychological maturity through the course of their life.
Consider a sleeping man, certainly this man is (temporarily) psychologically immature. This individual is not capable of negotiating for his own care and instead requires others to do so for him.
This is especially relevant in the "what-if" scenario of an unconscious man lying in the snow and freezing to death. I argue that a paramedic taking this unconscious person to a hospital is analogous to a mother carrying her toddler.

This guardianship role taken up by the paramedic/mother is scarce and must be singly held by the homesteader, under libertarian property rights theory. The reason is simple, there can be conflicts over the specifics of how the guardianship is to be performed.

Childhood, to capture the nature of a child as a psychologically immature human, can be thus defined as the state of being incapable of expressing one's own will and the guardian is the person who takes it upon themself to preserve the child until a time that they gain the ability to express their will.

Now, if, in your hypothetical scenario, the 12 year old daughter of gypsy C is someone who is sufficiently developed in order to be psychologically mature, and she consents as well. Then there is no conflict.
The consent of the Spanish popo in this matter would not matter, unless the Spanish popo moves in to act, in which case they are an aggressor, in which case everybody has the right to use force against them.

If, however, the 12 year old daughter of gypsy C is not psychologically mature and therefore not capable of giving valid consent, then what is happening there falls under abuse performed by the guardian.

What is important to note here is that the guardian is not the owner of the child, but rather the owner of the right to protect that child. Any abuse performed by the guardian onto that child implies an abandonment of that right, implying that the guardian must notify interested parties that the child is available for adoption. In other words, the right to protect that child becomes up for homesteading.
Do note that this requirement to notify potential adopters is not a positive obligation, merely a negative obligation to not forestall.

To quote a bit from Ian Hersum (2020), A Rational Theory of the Rights of Children:

Since a child’s preferences cannot be known, the proper method of raising him is impossible to determine, so his guardian is largely free to engage in any actions that he wishes to in relation to the child, as long as he does not deprive him of his innate function or form. While refusing to feed (or care for in other ways) a child cannot be understood as an act of harm, since the resources required for such care belong to the guardian and not the child, it still constitutes an abandonment of guardianship rights, but cannot carry a penalty other than one for forestalling. Rather, harm in this context can only be rendered by an active (rather than passive) behavior on the part of an adult against a child. This rules out any form of neglect.​
There must be a direct causal link between the action and the effects suffered for it to be considered harmful. [... Verifiable] psychological damage suffered by a child, which is directly attributable to an act of torment inflicted on him by an adult, deprives him of his natural mental functioning which is innately his. This also applies to physiological damage, of which verification and attribution is considerably easier. Any scarring, maiming, mutilation, or other disfigurement, which deprives a child of his innate body, and was suffered as a result of actions taken against him by an adult, likewise qualifies as damage.​

In other words, if this marriage is merely a transfer of guardianship ownership, then no conflict has happened yet.
If someone tries to consummate the marriage, then that is clearly an invasion of the child's property rights.
Anybody may move in to enforce the child's rights, including the Spanish popo.

Does that answer your question?
 
That's what I mean, what if I've paid everyone to look the other way simultaneously?
Then tough luck.
For you as well.
Because paying someone to look the other way is not a valid contract or agreement, therefore it cannot be enforced.
In other words, you have no available recourse if someone takes your money and then does not look the other way.
The only recourse you have is asking for your money back, but since you were the party initiating a fraudulent contract, I think you would be reliant on extreme leniency.

Now riddle me this.
Paying 8 billion people, all of whom have both the right and the incentive to go against your wishes.
Versus paying 1 government.
Which of these two scenarios makes it more likely for miscarriages of justice to happen?
 
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Because paying someone to look the other way is not a valid contract or agreement, therefore it cannot be enforced.
Me: I will give you $100 to fuck off and look the other way as I beat on this homeless guy (Person A), Deal?
Person B: Deal.
Seems pretty cut and dry. word of mouth isn't legal president but it's good enough for inter personal deals.
In other words, you have no available recourse if someone takes your money and then does not look the other way.
I remember a conversation between a German guy and a Californian. Cali guy asks the German what would happen if someone drove without a drivers licences. German responds that it's not possible to drive without a licences it's not allowed, it lead to a Cali Man repeating variations of "but what if someone did" to which German replies the same as the first. "It's not possible, you're not allowed to". So what if he does look the other way, what if I give the best incentive that they would be fools not to accept?
Which of these two scenarios makes it more likely for miscarriages of justice to happen?
Both. The problem I take with Libertarianism, is that it's just a covert contract that assumes the world to be a perfect bubble that the human condition will not find a way to fuck up and that evil people don't exist that to rise to the top and take the ladder with them. Starship Troopers was a awesome film though.
 
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Me: I will give you $100 to fuck off and look the other way as I beat on this homeless guy (Person A), Deal?
Person B: Deal.
Seems pretty cut and dry. word of mouth isn't legal president but it's good enough for inter personal deals.
Just because something is an agreement does not mean that it is legally valid in a free society.
For instance, an agreement or contract that is breaking the law.
Or an agreement or contract that cannot technologically be done. Like if I try to sell you the Eiffel Tower (which I currently don't own).
I remember a conversation between a German guy and a Californian. Cali guy asks the German what would happen if someone drove without a drivers licences. German responds that it's not possible to drive without a licences it's not allowed, it lead to a Cali Man repeating variations of "but what if someone did" to which German replies the same as the first. "It's not possible, you're not allowed to". So what if he does look the other way, what if I give the best incentive that they would be fools not to accept?
I'm saying that the agreement is not valid. There is no technological method by which you can transfer ownership over your own future decisions. Especially a contract that is invalid. You cannot enforce (== use force to compel someone) such a contract. And they are under no obligation to abide by such a "contract". Therefore they are within their rights to take the money and abstain from looking the other way.
Both. The problem I take with Libertarianism, is that it's just a covert contract that assumes the world to be a perfect bubble that the human condition will not find a way to fuck up and that evil people don't exist that to rise to the top and take the ladder with them. Starship Troopers was a awesome film though.
The libertarian solution to "evil people rising to the top" is to prohibit the ladder.
Right now, the ladder that evil people climb is an involuntary monopoly imposed upon society. The state.
Under libertarian circumstances, anyone trying to put down such a ladder (read: a criminal) can be gunned down without legal repercussions.
 
I'm spotting a very common thread in reading and listening to what authoritarians and statists have to say.
Pretty much all of it is whining about perceived problems. Nothing, or close to nothing, of what they say is anywhere near a solution or an approach to fix problems.

Isn't politics nothing but pointing at problems and trying to fix them?

Like, you present those people with solutions, all they do is give assertions on why they don't work. Not even arguments, there is no logic or evidence behind them, just assertions and conjecture.

Or they don't like your solutions, or they actually might not work in rare objective cases?

To me it feels like these people are conditioned to think like children, who wish for big daddy state to take care of all of their problems. If there is a problem, it means the state needs to do more. Even if the problem is caused by the state in the first place.

Addressing this is going to take orders of magnitude more effort than it took for you to say this, so strap in.

I agree that a lot of people think about politics very childishly. However, I don't agree that it's a "big daddy state" joke to suggest there are problems that need a state to fix that, such as immigration, or border control, or international politics, and so on.

There are also structural problems that can be dealt with by individuals but remain for the overall society. Yes, we can tell little Johnny and little Jenny to sit down shut up and read, but if a majority of students are below grade level, something tells me "just do it, gosh!" isn't going to work.

Back to your point of conditioning to think like children, I do agree - look at fat cope, fat logic, etc - but the fact remains that you can have both problems.

The government creates the legal fiction of a "corporation". The result is that corporations have too much political power. The people whine. So the government intervenes more, with new regulations. So there is less competition and corporations have more power and life is shittier for everyone. The people whine. So the government intervenes more.

How exactly do you do business without corporations, unless you want everyone to expose themselves to bullshit liability? If I spun up a small business I'd almost certainly never have enough money to lobby, but I'd also be a fucking idiot to not limit my personal liability.

If you mean issues of competition, yes, we fucked that up, but turns out we had trust busting for a reason, because we can't have small businesses 'bootstrap' the big ones away for reasons you just listed.

Turns out sometimes you need a government.

The final destination of this line of thinking is totalitarian communism.

No, the problem is the state then seeks to perpetuate and grow itself, it need not necessarily go down the path of commiefaggotry. Thank god.

And I am honestly surprised to see so much of this line of thinking here on the Farms.

The Farms looks to me like the best argument imaginable for criminal justice and mental health interventions, lol.

I understand a 6-year-old believing in daddy to step in and fix all of their problems, but I thought that you need to be an adult to use the Farms.

So how do we all bootstrap the furries and trannies?
 
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I agree that a lot of people think about politics very childishly. However, I don't agree that it's a "big daddy state" joke to suggest there are problems that need a state to fix that, such as immigration, or border control, or international politics, and so on.
The libertarian answer is that these problems are caused by the state.
I would say it is very much a "please help me daddy waaaaah" stance to say "this and this can obviously not be solved by people out of their own free will without using force to coerce others to do it. Therefore daddy state must do it"
How exactly do you do business without corporations, unless you want everyone to expose themselves to bullshit liability? If I spun up a small business I'd almost certainly never have enough money to lobby, but I'd also be a fucking idiot to not limit my personal liability.
Ultimately, there is no such thing as "corporate" or "collective" ownership under libertarian conditions. Therefore, there is no such thing as "company property" that is somehow does not have a single specified natural person owner.
Limiting liability of an action because it was done as a "company" just means that "companies" have legal privileges over everybody else in society.
Such a thing simply cannot do.
Either everybody has limited liability, or nobody does.
but turns out we had trust busting for a reason
Yes, namely to create monopolies and barriers to entry.
Look at the market before "trust busting" came in, and look at the market that exists today.
Turns out sometimes you need a government.
For what?
No, the problem is the state then seeks to perpetuate and grow itself, it need not necessarily go down the path of commiefaggotry. Thank god.
The issue is that the "middle of the road" system of intervention (usually called "social democracy", "mixed economy", "state capitalism", "regulated capitalism", "democracy", "welfare state", "Abenomics", "Bidenomics", "Peronism", "social market economy", basically the system you find in practically every statist society today) is not some magical bullet solution that "takes the best features of capitalism and socialism while avoiding the pitfalls of both", but it is rather its own separate economic system with unique problems.
Specifically, interventionism is an unstable system. We know from praxeology that every government intervention into the economy (read: into the actions of normal people) causes unintended negative consequences. Faced with these consequences, the regulator has the choice to get rid of the initial intervention or intervene more. And that is how the "intervention spiral" occurs until everything is so regulated and rights have been so hollowed out that you are in totalitarian communism. Just look at the direction the EU is heading if you need an example.
 
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The libertarian answer is that these problems are caused by the state.

Why should I care about the libertarian answer?

Simply stating: "My ideology and/or framework says to do this" isn't persuasive. Why?


I would say it is very much a "please help me daddy waaaaah" stance to say "this and this can obviously not be solved by people out of their own free will without using force to coerce others to do it. Therefore daddy state must do it"

Can everything? Really?

We're being so vague Hegel would roll his eyes.

Ultimately, there is no such thing as "corporate" or "collective" ownership under libertarian conditions. Therefore, there is no such thing as "company property" that is somehow does not have a single specified natural person owner.

I do not think that is the case for all libertarian ideologies and I am almost certain of that given the practical problems from disallowing collective ownership of businesses.

Doctors, lawyers, dentists, whatever, regularly go into business together. Joint Ventures, LLCs, etc, exist for practical reasons. Unless you think everyone is going to be some big pile of contractors and contracts? Could you elaborate on this?

Either everybody has limited liability, or nobody does.

You, too, can set up a LLC for a business venture instead of exposing yourself. Why do you want everyone to be exposed to risk and remove the capacity to set up a business and a business's property?

Yes, namely to create monopolies and barriers to entry.
Look at the market before "trust busting" came in, and look at the market that exists today.

You do realize a lot more was going on at that time, you can't just focus on one thing and say everything falls from that.

For what?

I literally told you.

The issue is that the "middle of the road" system of intervention (usually called "social democracy", "mixed economy", "state capitalism", "regulated capitalism", "democracy", "welfare state", "Abenomics", "Bidenomics", "Peronism", "social market economy", basically the system you find in practically every statist society today) is not some magical bullet solution that "takes the best features of capitalism and socialism while avoiding the pitfalls of both", but it is rather its own separate economic system with unique problems.

This is too vague to be useful. This also boils down to "just do what I say absolutely, fuck nuance".

Specifically, interventionism is an unstable system. We know from praxeology that every government intervention into the economy (read: into the actions of normal people) causes unintended negative consequences. Faced with these consequences, the regulator has the choice to get rid of the initial intervention or intervene more. And that is how the "intervention spiral" occurs until everything is so regulated and rights have been so hollowed out that you are in totalitarian communism. Just look at the direction the EU is heading if you need an example.

>Mises.

So you don't want to argue, you want to state and restate your ideology, without persuading people why we should hold your ideology or believe Mises' praxeological claims.

Since we're just wasting time, want to take a guess as to how praxeology answers the question as to why people troon out or become handmaidens or furries or fuck their moms?
 
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I just brough the gypsies up as a point where all the others who see it agree.

Gypsies marry after the consumation and usually only when the bride is already pregnant, or ate the fly as gypsies say. Gypsies often have 2-3 children by 18. No gypsy finds a problem with this. Nobody but cops go to gypsy camps. In fact they wouldn't go there if they had a choice either. The only person not a gypsy who would willingly enter a gyppo ghetto would be a skinhead with a flamethrower after given full immunity.

If there is no state, there is no legal. A contract is a contract is a contract.
This may work with Ferengi, they are cowardly and small by stature.

In fact in a free society, what is crime? Who agrees on it? You? Your clan? Your town? Your city?

This is an ideology that doesn't work with scale. Imagine lolberts trying to build a nuclear reactor.

It is autism as a political ideology where the idealists of it can't ever envision anyone else disagreeing. Perhaps it would work if we could clone and transfer memories. Horatio isn't driving, he is traveling.
 
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Government, is in a sense, a propertarian concept. It is a group of people with collective ownership over some territory, historically by right of conquest and defense, agreeing to set up a system where in their morality is enforced in that area and to pool resources for efficiencies sake. Opposing the concept of government means to forcefully deprive people of their right to form government if they so choose.

I suppose this all does come down to how one defines the right to property. If the libertarians have a more true answer than by ability to defend it, I would be glad to hear it. Even my preference that property be use-based is merely a moral veneer, a social construct, underpinned by the collective expression of might to protect property that is the state.
 
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