What is your opinion on the ongoing situation in Tibet? - (a refugee from the Hasan Piker thread)

[Dr Cruel]

In the Hasan Piker thread (https://kiwifarms.st/threads/hasan-piker-hasanabi.95834/) the topic of Tibet came up. Assertions ranged from China liberating a brutally backward slave state from theocratic Buddhist tyranny to Chinese communists brutally crushing a peaceful neighbor and bending them to their will. At some point a moderator realized that a discussion of Tibet had no place on a thread about the discussion of Hasan Piker's outrageous ideas about Tibet et al, and so anything pertaining to the discussion of Tibet was summarily deleted without warning. Luckily part of the thread had been saved beforehand. Since the justification for tossing this commentary down a memory hole was that it was "off-topic," it has been transferred here where it is literally the topic of the thread.

Enjoy.

Feel free to branch out on any other issues you would like to discuss that are Tibet-related. That's what this thread is here for.

Surfin Terf said:
The Tibetan system was left mostly intact because that was part of the Seventeen Points negotiated between the Tibetan government and the PRC.

Pardon, but given what you describe, it would be like the US negotiating with the National Socialists to allow them to keep their system and keep killing Jews, so long as US troops could occupy West Germany.

Surfin Terf said:
As for "fanatical resistance," literally one of the key events of the invasion was when the PLA entered Kham unopposed, because the Khampas hated the Lhasas more than they hated the Hans, so the Khampa military formations literally just abandoned their positions and went home.

Tibetan resistance has overwhelmingly been through civil disobedience and nonviolence. If there had been no resistance, who were the communist Chinese goon squads stomping on in the 1950s and 1960s?

"According to estimates, up to one-tenth of all Tibetans spent time in labour camps in the 1950s and 1960s and lost their lives or health to the inhumane conditions there - in some provinces, less than 10 per cent are said to have returned alive and well. The Dalai Lama, Tibet's spiritual leader and head of government, fled to India with 100 000 other Tibetans, including much of the intellectual elite.

According to dissidents, some 70 000 Tibetans starved to death in 1959-1963 during and after the Great Chinese Famine. Before the Chinese Cultural Revolution started in 1965, the occupation had already cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of Tibetans. By the end of the Cultural Revolution, the number of Tibetan genocide victims had possibly reached up to one million. Pressure on Tibetan culture and memory culminated with communists destroying Buddhist monasteries, scriptures and other heritage. The largest mass murders took place in 1968 when the Cultural Revolution was nearing its end."

https://communistcrimes.org/en/countries/tibet

When the US liberated the German death camps, they didn't need to slaughter hundreds of thousands of Jews to get them under control. Most of them seemed quite pleased to see American troops.

Surfin Terf said:
In fact, during the PLA's occupation of eastern Kham, Tibetan laborers made up a significant portion of the workforce that built the Kangding-Garze highway, because that's how much they fucking hated the Lhasas.

Again, with all this supposed hate, why is it so important for the Chinese communists to control the next incarnation of the Dalai Lama? If these monks are so hated, you'd think the CCP wouldn't want to be associated with them at all.

What you're talking about doesn't make any sense.

Surfin Terf said:
I've been avoiding commenting on the Tibet stuff because it's pointless since all the information comes from people with a viewpoint to push, but this is too fucking stupid. Just because the lamas aren't totally hated in Tibet 70 years later doesn't prove that they were good guys with no serious opposition. Your exact argument could be applied to Mao to prove that China loved the Great Leap Forward. China wasn't rebelling against the Communists in the 50s either, and yet tens of millions of them were "slaughtered" as well, because it was never about putting down an internal rebellion but about consolidating power against other political factions within the government.

Flaming Insignias said:
Look, I don't care if Tibet was a feudal theocracy, the PLA still invaded simply to obtain control of the territory and then the ChiComs have spent the past half-century trying to purge Tibet's culture and replace the population with Han Chinese when the locals failed to comply as readily as Beijing hoped. Genocides are generally bad and this one is still bad even if the genocided population had harsh rulers.

Surfin Terf said:
I never bought that China invaded because they hated the oppressive feudal system soooo much, but this was historically a part of China whose independence was generally unrecognized and which had ethnically cleansed the Chinese in living memory. It's not as if China had no legitimate claim to the region. Furthermore, it's not as if the Tibetans were just peaceful neighbors minding their own business, they had invaded China in the 30s.

Furthermore, there is no effort to "replace the population with Han Chinese". There simply aren't enough Chinese who want to settle in an isolated, cold, high-altitude, economically depressed area like this, very few Chinese who go there stay for more than 5 years and the population is almost 90% ethnically Tibetan. Further still, it's not even solely Han Chinese who are (usually temporarily) moving to Tibet, it's primarily Hui Chinese which is the actual reason that the Tibetans occasionally engage in some race riots. It's not because they hate the Chinese, it's because they hate Muslims.

Surfin Terf said:
I've been avoiding commenting on the Tibet stuff because it's pointless since all the information comes from people with a viewpoint to push, but this is too fucking stupid. Just because the lamas aren't totally hated in Tibet 70 years later doesn't prove that they were good guys with no serious opposition. Your exact argument could be applied to Mao to prove that China loved the Great Leap Forward. China wasn't rebelling against the Communists in the 50s either, and yet tens of millions of them were "slaughtered" as well, because it was never about putting down an internal rebellion but about consolidating power against other political factions within the government.

Go further. It's not just that the monks aren't hated now. it's that the Chinese communists find the institution is so important that they've been trying to co-opt and control it for decades. They have had the successor expected to be the next incarnation of the Dalai Lama under house arrest, and in their control, for some time now.

"The Dalai Lama is perhaps the most important figure in both historical and contemporary Tibet. Generally believed by Tibetans to be the human manifestation of Chenresi, or Avalokitesvara, the deity of compassion, the Dalai Lama has been the spiritual and temporal leader of the Tibetan community for hundreds of years—being reborn time and time again to serve the Tibetan community ..."

" ... According to the International Campaign for Tibet, an exile organization, by creating a legal framework for the identification and education of reincarnated lamas, the Chinese Communist party can do the following: ensure that Beijing has direct control over the process of identifying and educating all significant lamas, including the potential Fifteenth Dalai Lama; criminalize any role in the recognition of reincarnations by Tibetan living in exile (i.e. the leaders of the four Tibetan Buddhist Schools and/or the Tibetan Government in exile); ensure that all officially recognized reincarnate lamas are loyal to Beijing; and attempt to use the influence of reincarnated lamas to maintain control over Tibetan society and the religious establishment ("New State Regulations on Recognitions of Tibetan Reincarnates‖). In other words, according to Dhardon, a representative from the Tibetan Women‘s Association: "Order No. 5 gives the [Chinese] state the right to interfere in the appointment of any religious heads, which obviously means the Dalai Lama, Karmapa, and the Panchen Lama. This is a ploy by the Chinese government—a political ploy—that they are trying to get hold of so they can control Tibet in the way they want to. At the moment they see the Dalai Lama as the obstacle to achieving this mission to their set goal. The [Chinese] know that as a human being, [the Dalai Lama‘s] death is very near, so taking hold of that, if the next reincarnation of the Dalai Lama is in the Chinese hands—even though it is a fake one—they have planned the game in such a manner that they have become the key players." "
-Molly Daffner, "The Next Dalai Lama"

https://abroad.emory.edu/_customtags/ct_FileRetrieve.cfm?File_ID=9057

This institution and leadership apparently are very important to native Tibetans, and have been or hundreds of years. The communist Chinese government has passed laws to deliberately co-opt this transition process and to make control of it illegal by any other group, to include survivors of the original leadership.

"When coming to the issue of selecting a 15th Dalai Lama, Beijing has made a (surprising) move. Unlike the Dalai Lama who departed from the Tibetan tradition in establishing the Gaden Phodrang Trust, the Chinese 58 Jagannath Panda & Eerishika Pankaj government has constructed an image of being a strong defender of the Tibetan cultural tradition, according to the commentary made by Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung. Rather than advocating for the ending of the reincarnation system, or a substantive move away from the traditional selection method, Beijing has defended it. This tactic is Machiavellian in style. In 2007, the State Religious Affairs Bureau of the Chinese government released a document that specified concrete methods and procedures for the reincarnation of Tibetan Buddhas. Article 2 states that “Reincarnating living Buddhas should respect and protect the principles of the unification of the state, protecting the unity of the minorities, protecting religious concord and social harmony, and protecting the normal order of Tibetan Buddhism.” Beijing has chosen and groomed a group of senior lamas who are friendly to the CPC. The Panchen Lama is among the senior lamas who will conduct the selection. Beijing is sure to present the new Dalai Lama as having been chosen by Tibetan Buddhist religious leaders rather than by CPC officials. Beijing will deny the authority of the Gaden Phodrang Trust, designated by the current Dalai Lama, in selecting a new successor. "
-Baogang He, "Tibet in China’s Machiavellian Thinking"

https://isdp.eu/content/uploads/2023/05/ISDP-Special-Paper-Tibet-May-15.pdf

"The Chinese government has asserted its intention to select the successor of the current Dalai Lama, who turned 86 in July 2021, and has promoted its own appointee to serve as the Panchen Lama, a religious figure who plays an important role in identifying the reincarnation of a Dalai Lama, according to Tibetan Buddhist rituals. The location of the Panchen Lama who was originally recognized by the current Dalai Lama remains unknown; he was abducted by Chinese officials in 1995, when he was six years old."

https://freedomhouse.org/country/tibet/freedom-world/2022

And now, apparently, you're trying to convince me that this institution was despised in the 1950s when the communist Chinese tried to destroy it. Really? Seriously?

Do you think telling me I don't know what I'm talking about will work? What about everyone else who cares about these issues? Are they all wrong too? Should I instead consider only the Confucian Institute for my information, and assume everyone else is lying?

This is shameful. I'm trying to remain nice about it, but I'm finding it increasingly hard to do so.

Surfin Terf said:
there is no effort to "replace the population with Han Chinese"

The policy you say "doesn't exist" is called the Cadre Transfer Policy. A similar process is being used in Xinjiang.

-Yasheng Huang, "China’s Cadre Transfer Policy toward Tibet in the 1980s"

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/68381/10.1177_009770049502100202.pdf?sequence=2

Surfin Terf said:
There simply aren't enough Chinese who want to settle in an isolated, cold, high-altitude, economically depressed area like this

"China’s transfer policy toward Tibet is implemented on the basis of both incentives and administrative compulsion. "
-Yasheng Huang

Commoner preference has never been a big problem for the CCP.

"Tibetans are now a minority within their own country. The Chinese population within historical Tibet, an area much larger than the Chinese-designated Tibet Autonomous Region, or TAR, has increased since 1949 from only a few hundred thousand in the eastern Tibetan provinces to at least 5.5 million, according to Chinese census figures and independent observations, and perhaps to as many as 7.5 million, according to the Tibetan Government in Exile ...

... In contrast, the Tibetan population, estimated to be about 6 million in 1949, today remains the same according to the Tibetan Government in Exile, though Chinese census figures and independent observations indicate a decline to about 4.6 million. In major cities and towns in particular, Tibetans are becoming invisible."

- Tibet Justice Center, "Intervention on Population Transfer in Tibet"
(https://www.tibetjustice.org/?page_id=182)

Surfin Terf said:
... it's primarily Hui Chinese which is the actual reason that the Tibetans occasionally engage in some race riots. It's not because they hate the Chinese, it's because they hate Muslims.

So there is colonization going on, but you assert they are Hui rather than Han Chinese. You also now admit there is resistance.

What do you think you'd be thinking if you were me right now?

Surfin Terf said:
LOL. LMAO even.

Glad you think this is funny.

 

[millais]

I heard Tibetans are smelly and dirty because it's too cold to bathe in the Himalayan country. And Chinese brought them hot, running water.

 

[m1ddl3m4rch]

My condolences for your Lhasa

 

[Dr Cruel]

I heard Tibetans are smelly and dirty because it's too cold to bathe in the Himalayan country. And Chinese brought them hot, running water.

Same with the Negroes and the savage natives of America, no doubt. They should suck us off daily for what we did for them.

 

[Dr Cruel]

My condolences for your Lhasa

No worries. Everything's perfectly all right now. We're fine. We're all fine here now, thank you. How are you?

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

Hasan Pikey had a stopped clock moment, or well almost did since he's about 80-90% right on Tibet. Fact of the matter is that Tibet was a medieval shithole prior to the CCP takeover (when it transitioned to being a commie shithole). The people were generally half-starved and were forced to enserf themselves to wealthy monasteries. Banditry was common. Yuan, Ming, and Qing era sources (i.e. 650 years of writing) frequently describe the Tibetan people as bandits, suggesting they turned to preying on travelers and non-Tibetan communities to survive. Slavery was also a thing, but to the credit of Tibet's rulers they abolished the slave class and turned them into serfs. The Tibetan government was authoritarian and violently punished dissent.

Incidentally, Tibet was never recognized as an independent nation. It was directly controlled by the Chinese government during the Yuan era and the Qing era (after the mid-18th century) and both states repeatedly intervened on the request of their Tibetan authorities against rebel groups. It was considered part of China by every nation in the world beside independent Mongolia during the 1911-1921 period--Mongolia was also a Buddhist theocracy in this era. Britain did have a Tibet office, but this was merely because of Tibet's long border with India and that office was not considered an embassy (no matter how much Tibetan authorities tried considered it one).

None of this excuses actual CCP crimes toward the Tibetan people or their culture, or the fact they are indeed moving settlers to Tibet (albeit nowhere near as many as Xinjiang). But there is no need to make a pseudohistory of Tibet like Tibetan nationalists have done and useful idiots in the West parrot as "facts."

In the Hasan Piker thread (https://kiwifarms.st/threads/hasan-piker-hasanabi.95834/) the topic of Tibet came up. Assertions ranged from China liberating a brutally backward slave state from theocratic Buddhist tyranny to Chinese communists brutally crushing a peaceful neighbor and bending them to their will. At some point a moderator realized that a discussion of Tibet had no place on a thread about the discussion of Hasan Piker's outrageous ideas about Tibet et al, and so anything pertaining to the discussion of Tibet was summarily deleted without warning. Luckily part of the thread had been saved beforehand. Since the justification for tossing this commentary down a memory hole was that it was "off-topic," it has been transferred here where it is literally the topic of the thread.

Thank you for making this thread since I was going to post regarding Tibet in that thread too but knew it would be too off-topic (plus Hasan Piker is a fag). You might want to get this moved to the Mass Debates section. I've been wanting a good Tibet debate thread for months now.

According to dissidents, some 70 000 Tibetans starved to death in 1959-1963 during and after the Great Chinese Famine. Before the Chinese Cultural Revolution started in 1965, the occupation had already cost the lives of hundreds of thousands of Tibetans. By the end of the Cultural Revolution, the number of Tibetan genocide victims had possibly reached up to one million. Pressure on Tibetan culture and memory culminated with communists destroying Buddhist monasteries, scriptures and other heritage. The largest mass murders took place in 1968 when the Cultural Revolution was nearing its end."

Deaths in Tibet or among Tibetans were not particularly extreme compared to other regions of China. The so-called "Tibetan genocide" uses faulty methodology to estimate the casualties. It was literally a survey passed among exiled Tibetans and Tibetan refugees saying "please list the names of the people you know who have been killed by the Chinese" and this caused a lot of duplication of names and bad guesswork. It's very likely some of the alleged victims actually just fled Tibet. Likely the total number of dead is perhaps 200-300K at most.

Again, with all this supposed hate, why is it so important for the Chinese communists to control the next incarnation of the Dalai Lama? If these monks are so hated, you'd think the CCP wouldn't want to be associated with them at all.

What you're talking about doesn't make any sense.

Communism is a totalitarian system that demands absolute control. The CCP is always seeking ways of control and like Mao's one-time ally Joseph Stalin, they are not adverse to religion so long as the religion serves the party. This is no different than how the CCP controls the Catholic Church (and all legal churches) in China. Actually this has an even longer history regarding China since the two Chinese dynasties which controlled Tibet, the Yuan and the Qing, also controlled just who was allowed to reincarnate via a central government office (headed by the foremost pro-Yuan/pro-Qing lama).

Fact of the matter is that the Dalai Lama and all other lamas are political personalities due to Tibet having been a theocracy for many centuries. Therefore discovering the reincarnation of lamas is inherently political and always has been rather than some alleged suppression of religious freedom. Does that mean the CCP is doing the right thing? No, but one can argue that neither is the Tibetan government in exile given their Lhasa-centric interpretation of Tibetan history and history violence toward the Tibetans of Kham.

"Tibetans are now a minority within their own country. The Chinese population within historical Tibet, an area much larger than the Chinese-designated Tibet Autonomous Region, or TAR, has increased since 1949 from only a few hundred thousand in the eastern Tibetan provinces to at least 5.5 million, according to Chinese census figures and independent observations, and perhaps to as many as 7.5 million, according to the Tibetan Government in Exile ...

This is only true given the Tibetan government-in-exile's definition of Tibet, which is absurdly broad and includes territories which haven't been under Tibetan rule since the Tibetan Empire existed nearly 1,300 years ago. It is known they manipulate population statistics just as much as the CCP does. These Chinese (Han and Hui) communities plus other minorities (both "independent" Tibet and the CCP have oppressed and rejected the existence of certain non-Tibetan minorities) are ancient. There are large Han, Hui, Mongol, etc. populations that date to the Yuan Dynasty (which never considered these areas part of Tibet) and settlement only increased in the centuries after as the Ming relocated people there to defend against Tibetan bandits plus Qing and the Republic of China's own rule. Violent Hui warlords like the Ma Clique governed the area, and you can hardly blame the CCP for the actions of KMT warlords.

 

[Dr Cruel]

You might want to get this moved to the Mass Debates section.

It's here because it's an ongoing conflict, and people there are being killed. Thus it's akin to the Arab-Israeli conflict and the war in Ukraine, and thus according to the rules should be here. If you like you can create a corresponding thread where only news stories regarding the Tibetan region are posted. Or you can have it moved, as my opinions don't seem to matter very much here. Maybe you can even have it deleted again, for some contrived reason or other. We'll see how it goes.

Fact of the matter is that Tibet was a medieval shithole prior to the CCP takeover (when it transitioned to being a commie shithole). The people were generally half-starved and were forced to enserf themselves to wealthy monasteries. Banditry was common. Yuan, Ming, and Qing era sources (i.e. 650 years of writing) frequently describe the Tibetan people as bandits, suggesting they turned to preying on travelers and non-Tibetan communities to survive. Slavery was also a thing, but to the credit of Tibet's rulers they abolished the slave class and turned them into serfs. The Tibetan government was authoritarian and violently punished dissent.

Clearly Tibet was a backward country. For a nation of bandits, they put up surprisingly little resistance to the Chinese communist onslaught (one would have expected far more trouble from a place like Afghanistan, for example). During their "half-starved" era they seemed to have fared much better food-wise than after their "liberation."

This country, which you claim is a bandt region (such as for example Kurdistan) has by your admission a history that dates back at least 650 years. The Indochinese states, particularly Vietnam, are sometimes described similarly. Perhaps this is why Ho Chi Minh was more concerned about being afflicted by communist Chinese benevolence than American military interference in the region. Something about "smelling Chinese shit for the next thousand years" or some such was part of his relevant comment on the matter.

Incidentally, Tibet was never recognized as an independent nation. It was directly controlled by the Chinese government during the Yuan era and the Qing era (after the mid-18th century) and both states repeatedly intervened on the request of their Tibetan authorities against rebel groups. It was considered part of China by every nation in the world beside independent Mongolia during the 1911-1921 period

Poland was partitioned in the 18th century. It fought for independence for centuries, During this era it was recognized as part of other countries by all the major nations of Europe, and even under Napoleon was considered an autonomous duchy of the French Empire. They won their freedom in 1919, and had it taken away from them in 1939 by a coalition of socialist fascists.

So is Poland not a "real" country, like Putin asserts about Ukraine? Shouldn't it just be split by Russia, Germany and Austria without anyone making a big fuss? After all, they're just bandits who can't screw in a light bulb.

This is what Tibetan nationalist bandits and liars have to say about their own history:

"The Tibetan people are uniquely adapted to live on the one million square mile Tibetan plateau, the highest land-mass in the world, averaging 14,000 feet in altitude.

Politically, Tibet is an ancient nation with a recorded history dating back to 127 B.C.E. After uniting the plateau into a single country, the Tibetan Empire reached its peak during the 7th and 8th centuries, conquering parts of Nepal and India, the Silk Route states, and briefly even T’ang China. The Tibetan kings imported Buddhism from India from the 6th to the 9th century, and became so devoted to its teachings of nonviolence and enlightenment that they neglected their military empire.

In the 13th century, Tibet surrendered to the Mongols to avoid an invasion and became a tributary to the Mongol Empire until 1368. During China’s Ming Dynasty (1368-1644), Tibet was completely independent under three Tibetan ruling houses.

In 1642, the Great Fifth Dalai Lama created the Ganden government, with a unique monastic/secular-coordinated administration. This government demilitarized Tibet and officially formed it into a spiritual nation that supported Buddhist education above all, and was economically self-sufficient.

In foreign affairs, the Dalai Lama became the mentor of the new Manchu emperor of Manchuria and China, and received worldly protection for Tibet, in exchange for his providing spiritual teachings to the Manchurians and maintaining the peace with the Mongolians and Uighurs.

In 1904, the British invaded Tibet, to impose trade upon the Tibetan government, and to prevent Tibet’s coming under the protection of Russia.

In 1949 and 1950, the People’s Liberation Army of the People’s Republic of China invaded the eastern provinces of Amdo and Kham."

https://thus.org/about/tibetan-history/

Seems pretty elaborate. Are you really claiming none of this is actually true?

there is no need to make a pseudohistory of Tibet like Tibetan nationalists have done and useful idiots in the West parrot as "facts."

A pseudohistory of Tibet invented by Han Chinese Nazis should be substituted and parroted by useful idiots in the West. No one should listen to people from Tibet about their own history. Being primitive bandits, like members of native American tribes, they are natural liars and thieves and barely human in any case.

Deaths in Tibet or among Tibetans were not particularly extreme compared to other regions of China. The so-called "Tibetan genocide" uses faulty methodology to estimate the casualties. It was literally a survey passed among exiled Tibetans and Tibetan refugees saying "please list the names of the people you know who have been killed by the Chinese" and this caused a lot of duplication of names and bad guesswork. It's very likely some of the alleged victims actually just fled Tibet. Likely the total number of dead is perhaps 200-300K at most.

Dissidents cite a figure of 70,000 dead. Your more "conservative" estimate is three to four times larger than that.

I never heard of people in Tibet having a problem with agriculture prior to Chinese communist "modernity." This is new.

The CCP is always seeking ways of control and like Mao's one-time ally Joseph Stalin, they are not adverse to religion so long as the religion serves the party.

I understand that. But if your contention is that the Tibetan Buddhists were widely exploitative and brutal, why be so fixated on Buddhist succession? The Waffen SS had an extensive system of governing management in Poland during Operation Barbarossa, and the Bolsheviks were keen on controlling every aspect of Polish society in the post-war era, but I never heard of them being fixated on who should be the rightful head of the SS in Poland after 1945. The National Socialists were assholes, the Waffen SS leadership wasn't especially liked, the group had a well deserved reputation for depravity, and no one in Poland was looking to them for continued leadership.

Apparently the Buddhist monks are different. They seem to be very much revered by Tibetans, and retain formidable clout. This is why the Chinese communists are trying to co-opt them. This is also where all these stories about Tibetans being bandits, or being abused slaves rescued by the Maoists, or not being able to wipe their arses before they were conquered, are coming from.

 

[Dr Cruel]

A review of the new "scholarship:"

AUGUST 17, 2008

Acme of Obscenity​

" ... Tom Grunfeld’s, The Making of Modern Tibet (Zed Books, 1987) is a work that is more in line with Mayo’s book than with The Protocols. Grunfeld doesn’t exactly accuse Tibetan mothers of masturbating their sons, but he does claim that “babies were not washed as they emerged from the womb but sometimes licked by the mother” – like animals. He offers neither source nor citation for this amazing fabrication. He goes on to specify that Tibetan were cruel, dirty, ignorant, syphilitic (90% of the population suffering from venereal diseases according to TG) sexual degenerates who were observed making love on rooftops in full public view. Why make such outrageous accusations, you may ask? What purpose does such ridiculous abuse serve? But these are not random insults Grunfeld is hurling, but essential components of his greater design – to expose Tibetans as barbaric, subhuman, even bestial, thereby justifying Chinese rule in Tibet as necessary and civilizing. It is particularly galling for any Tibetan even to have to deny such charges, coming from a propagandist for a country where till fairly recently, ritual cannibalism of the most gruesome kind was practiced to honour Chairman Mao (Scarlet Memorial: Tales of Cannibalism in Modern China, Zheng Yi, Westview Press, 1996) ... "

https://www.jamyangnorbu.com/blog/2008/08/17/acme-of-obscenity/

 

[IDanceonTrannyGraves]

I wanted to go to Tibet when I lived in HK, but the rules were so autistic to the level of N. Korea that it wasn't worth the bother. Which I suspect is part of the reason the rules are there - to discourage outside visitors.

Fuck the CCP.

 

[Dr Cruel]

I wanted to go to Tibet when I lived in HK, but the rules were so autistic to the level of N. Korea that it wasn't worth the bother. Which I suspect is part of the reason the rules are there - to discourage outside visitors.

Fuck the CCP.

No argument here. But the aren't alone in guarding access to their resident subhumans. Plenty of South American states "protect" their primitive subhumans in a similar manner. Likewise there are tribal people in the Amazon who live in a very primitive manner - and prefer it. Management of native Americans by the US government has been base for decades on this very principle - and scams to recreate long-dead tribes are based on exploiting American guilt about it.

The real problem in living with a low level of technology is that the hairless primates, like most carnivorous apes, are greedy and territorial, and have an inclination to handle disputes by force - particularly if they think their potential opponent is weak and an easy lay. It's why, for example, the US is reluctant to confront Muslim terrorist groups directly - they're vicious, devious, spiteful, cunning, and have absolutely no scruples. If you fuck with their slaves and their bitches and interfere with their abuse of the locals, they WILL come to your house and fuck your shit up. The US military prefers targets that takes their wedgies without complaint, like Grenada or Bosnia. The US is also more reluctant to swing their dicks around nowadays, as the locals have learned how vulnerable the US government is to being squeezed in their private place.

Tibet sits on a plateau filled with potential mineable resources, all for the taking, so it's no shock to see the CCP come up with excuses to steal it all for themselves. The people of Tibet can't do shit about it either. That's why they've been conquered.

Maybe I'm just autistic. I'm a wargamer and was a math tutor, an I like history to be credible and equations to balance out. I hate the revisionist crap George Orwell so often lampoons (and let's remember, his personal experience with it was from working for the BBC during the War, and not just from being an English commie). The situation in the region (Nepal, east India, and of course Tibet) is violent, brutal and ongoing, and the wumaos aren't making my job any easier. Thus an open forum to voice narratives and provide empirical input and cites.

But yeah, sure. Fuck the CCP. They should pull their tiny Asian dicks out of Hong Kong. And no, the people of Hong Kong don't deserve to be ass fucked by Xi Jinping on the accusation that they're an island of poverty stricken illiterate running dog pirates pandering to the foreign round-eyed devils.

 

[Zbk3VmLfujjzjxBd43tL]

It's here because it's an ongoing conflict, and people there are being killed. Thus it's akin to the Arab-Israeli conflict and the war in Ukraine, and thus according to the rules should be here. If you like you can create a corresponding thread where only news stories regarding the Tibetan region are posted. Or you can have it moved, as my opinions don't seem to matter very much here. Maybe you can even have it deleted again, for some contrived reason or other. We'll see how it goes.

It's many orders of magnitude less of a happening than anything going on Israel or the Ukraine. It's just the usual CCP camps and censorship and some government-in-exile issuing proclamations. They aren't even doing any killing on a scale like the CCP has done in Xinjiang, nor is there any Tibetan militant
group as organized as the East Turkestan rebels and their allies like ISIS and al-Qaeda. Unless you're a turbo-boomer, this has been happening your entire life.

Clearly Tibet was a backward country. For a nation of bandits, they put up surprisingly little resistance to the Chinese communist onslaught (one would have expected far more trouble from a place like Afghanistan, for example). During their "half-starved" era they seemed to have fared much better food-wise than after their "liberation."

This country, which you claim is a bandt region (such as for example Kurdistan) has by your admission a history that dates back at least 650 years. The Indochinese states, particularly Vietnam, are sometimes described similarly. Perhaps this is why Ho Chi Minh was more concerned about being afflicted by communist Chinese benevolence than American military interference in the region. Something about "smelling Chinese shit for the next thousand years" or some such was part of his relevant comment on the matter.

Kublai Khan considered them a violent race fond of fighting. Marco Polo said "Otherwise, the people are idolaters and thoroughly wicked, for they do not think it sinful to steal and act badly. They are the greatest criminals and thieves on earth", which was probably based on what he heard from Chinese people he met.

Poland was partitioned in the 18th century. It fought for independence for centuries, During this era it was recognized as part of other countries by all the major nations of Europe, and even under Napoleon was considered an autonomous duchy of the French Empire. They won their freedom in 1919, and had it taken away from them in 1939 by a coalition of socialist fascists.

So is Poland not a "real" country, like Putin asserts about Ukraine? Shouldn't it just be split by Russia, Germany and Austria without anyone making a big fuss? After all, they're just bandits who can't screw in a light bulb.

Not even remotely comparable. Poland was a recognized independent nation since 1918 and the majority of the world condemned and did not recognize the Nazi-Soviet annexation. Since the annexation of Tibet by Qing China in the mid-18th century, Tibet was recognized by literally one single nation for a period of 10 years. Legally, Tibet is 100% part of China and has been for about 300 years now. I don't see why it shouldn't remain under Chinese rule as an autonomous territory because barring the Ming and early Qing interlude, that has been the state of Tibet since the 13th century. Are the Tibetan people their own distinct nation? Sure, but there are multiple ethnicities of Tibetans. The Tibetan nationalist claim to Greater Tibet is based in pseudohistory and exaggeration. Ironically, trying to subsume all Tibetans under the banner of Lhasa Tibetans is akin to Russia's belief in the triune Russian nation (of which Ukrainians aka Malorussians are one of them). No nation is entitled to a sovereign state, especially not one which has not been a sovereign state for over 300 years.

In foreign affairs, the Dalai Lama became the mentor of the new Manchu emperor of Manchuria and China, and received worldly protection for Tibet, in exchange for his providing spiritual teachings to the Manchurians and maintaining the peace with the Mongolians and Uighurs.

This is a gross oversimplification. The Qing appointed an amban to rule Tibet, and the amban had his own army and was required to intervene in Tibetan affairs. In every sense Tibet was controlled by China but with an autonomous status, just like today. That the Dalai Lama was a respected spiritual teacher is irrelevant to Tibet's subordinate position regarding China.

A pseudohistory of Tibet invented by Han Chinese Nazis should be substituted and parroted by useful idiots in the West. No one should listen to people from Tibet about their own history. Being primitive bandits, like members of native American tribes, they are natural liars and thieves and barely human in any case.

Native Americans sometimes make shit up too.

Dissidents cite a figure of 70,000 dead. Your more "conservative" estimate is three to four times larger than that.

I never heard of people in Tibet having a problem with agriculture prior to Chinese communist "modernity." This is new.

No, I meant mass killings in general under the ChiCom regime.

Tibetan agriculture was very marginal because of the climate which is vulnerable to frosts and drought. When famine broke out--which was common--it inevitably led to an expansion of serfdom and slavery (latter was abolished in the early 20th century and never a big factor compared to serfdom). This marginal lifestyle and frequent nomadism was what led to ethnic Tibetan bandits being a common problem the border regions faced.

I understand that. But if your contention is that the Tibetan Buddhists were widely exploitative and brutal, why be so fixated on Buddhist succession? The Waffen SS had an extensive system of governing management in Poland during Operation Barbarossa, and the Bolsheviks were keen on controlling every aspect of Polish society in the post-war era, but I never heard of them being fixated on who should be the rightful head of the SS in Poland after 1945. The National Socialists were assholes, the Waffen SS leadership wasn't especially liked, the group had a well deserved reputation for depravity, and no one in Poland was looking to them for continued leadership.

Apparently the Buddhist monks are different. They seem to be very much revered by Tibetans, and retain formidable clout. This is why the Chinese communists are trying to co-opt them. This is also where all these stories about Tibetans being bandits, or being abused slaves rescued by the Maoists, or not being able to wipe their arses before they were conquered, are coming from.

The system has faded from memory among Tibetans since it ended over 60 years ago and today the religious aspects are predominant rather than the theocratic elements. The monks and lamas in Tibet and abroad are not focused on economic dominance of society as they formerly were. I don't think anybody thinks Tibet was like the SS in Poland, if anything it was maybe comparable to the Nazis in Germany. Sure enough, Stalin permitted a legal organization to attract former Nazis to the East German system called the National Democratic Party. Plus it's also well known that most early neo-Nazi parties in West Germany were financed by the Stasi.

 

[Gangstalker #32194]

"waaaaa we want our slaves back" - wannabe vatican gov in exile

 

[Abowaffen]

Assertions ranged from China liberating a brutally backward slave state from theocratic Buddhist tyranny to Chinese communists brutally crushing a peaceful neighbor and bending them to their will.

I don't think these are incompatible. Chinese communists brutally crushed a backward theocratic tyrannical slave state and bent them to their will.

 

[Dr Cruel]

I don't think these are incompatible. Chinese communists brutally crushed a backward theocratic tyrannical slave state and bent them to their will.

They aren't incompatible. The accusation that Tibet was a backward theocratic tyrannical slave state prior to conquest by the Red Chinese is simply an unsupportable lie. It's sharply at odds with the available evidence, and the people promoting it know that.

 

[Abowaffen]

They aren't incompatible. The accusation that Tibet was a backward theocratic tyrannical slave state prior to conquest by the Red Chinese is simply an unsupportable lie. It's sharply at odds with the available evidence, and the people promoting it know that.

It was complete feudal rule though right? (I am very ignorant on Tibetan history, this is just what I've been told)

 

[Dr Cruel]

"waaaaa we want our slaves back" - wannabe vatican gov in exile

Actually the present Dalai Lama has acquiesced to Chinese communist control. He calls for democracy and more representation for the Tibetans in their own homeland. Not that it matters - the Chinese communists seem determined to do the same things to the Tibetans that they are doing to the Uighurs, then use Nepal as a potential springboard into India.

As an aside, this is just more demonstrable proof that the Chinese socialists are as nationalist and as fascist as the National Socialists of Germany were. Likewise their interests are clearly nationalist, strategic and economic. The CCP is promoting the interests of the Han Chinese in the same way National Socialists promoted the interests of the "Aryan" Germans and the Bolshevik Empire promoted the interests of Russians. The inherent racist bigotry, anti-Semitism and bald-faced hypocrisy of socialists in the West is increasingly making itself manifest as well, with the Maoists imitating them in their own unique cultural way.

This is what happens when you're careful with your maths and research. Eventually you're always vindicated by unfolding events. This is how you properly get "based" - by building your intellectual foundations on solid ground and moving from there. Tofu dreg intellectual and historical constructs, so common to the socialists, always gets you into trouble eventually.

 

[Dr Cruel]

It was complete feudal rule though right? (I am very ignorant on Tibetan history, this is just what I've been told)

It was a feudal theocracy, much as communist China is now. Whereas the popular religion in Tibet is Buddhism, the political religion of communist China is a form of Maoist socialist fascism, modified by Dengist capitalism. Tibet was also a fairly primitive society when it was conquered by the communists. It certainly wasn't a slave state, and the old ruling class was revered by most Tibetans, much as it still is now -thus why communist China is so keen to co-opt it.

 

[Dr Cruel]

It's many orders of magnitude less of a happening than anything going on Israel or the Ukraine.

But it's a happening. That's why I put it here.

Marco Polo said "Otherwise, the people are idolaters and thoroughly wicked, for they do not think it sinful to steal and act badly. They are the greatest criminals and thieves on earth",

And in the 15th century the Swiss were a violent state known for their mercenaries. No one today advocates that Switzerland ought to be invaded and suppressed to combat militarism in Europe. This is even less reasonable than Putin arguing that his war in Ukraine is to combat a National Socialist presence there.

Not even remotely comparable. Poland was a recognized independent nation since 1918 and the majority of the world condemned and did not recognize the Nazi-Soviet annexation.

Very much comparable, particularly when Poland was a province of the Bolshevik Empire. It's also akin to arguing that Cuba rightfully belongs to the US.

Legally, Tibet is 100% part of China and has been for about 300 years now.

Tibet was de facto independent from 1911 to 1951, and maintained diplomatic relations with Nepal, Bhutan, Britain, and later with independent India. The invasion was akin to Turkey deciding to conquer Armenia or Greece.

Native Americans sometimes make shit up too.

And sometimes it's the US who "makes shit up" and ignores treaties. I'm familiar with the process.

Tibetan agriculture was very marginal because of the climate which is vulnerable to frosts and drought.

Which is why the Great Leap Forward was such a disaster for them, just as it was for the native Chinese. Communist authoritarian racists, who had no respect for the "backward" rural people, decided to impose their idiotic ideas about farming on people who had maintained themselves with traditional forms of farming for centuries. Those who resisted, in the communist tradition, were simply shot. This is particularly why Left fascists are so bad at agriculture - they don't know what the fuck they are doing, and are too arrogant and tyrannical to admit it. When their terrorized farmers try to do things in a way that works, they get killed for it. So the socialists eventually get their way, destroy the next year's crops, and lots of poor people begin to die. Because the socialists are greedy and STILL won't admit they're wrong, they blame the peasants for the mess, steal their remaining food and seed and then sell it overseas for luxury goods to placate their senior socialist elite. This was the formula for at least three separate mass famines in Bolshevik Russia, one of which was very obviously intentional - and the agricultural management system upon which the "Great Leap Forward" was based on..

The system has faded from memory among Tibetans since it ended over 60 years ago and today the religious aspects are predominant rather than the theocratic elements.

It hasn't faded naturally. It's being deliberately destroyed.

“We often get asked why we don’t hear about Tibet any more,” said Tsering, known as the Sikyong of the Central Tibetan Administration (CTA).

He blamed that silence on China’s “Orwellian gridlock system, use of all means of artificial intelligence to surveil people, control the flow of information and lockdown of Tibet to the outside world”.

“Tibetan language, religion and culture are the bedrock of Tibetan identity … These are facing the unprecedented threat of eradication,” he told the bipartisan Congressional-Executive Commission on China hearing via video link.

“If PRC [[People’s Republic of China] is not made to reverse or change its current policies, Tibet and Tibetans will definitely die a slow death,” Tsering added.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2023/3/29/tibet-dying-a-slow-death-under-chinese-rule-says-exiled-leader

Communist China doesn't have a moral right to rule Tibet. They don't even have a moral right to rule mainland China, and are in power there based on coercive force and not much else. What support they had is frittering away as corrupt communist officials rob and cheat the Chinese people and mismanage the country.

The legitimate government of China is based in Taipei. They know it too, which is why the communists are so keen to destroy it.

 

[mindlessobserver]

Vae Victus

 

[Dr Cruel]

"For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretences- either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us- and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must."

-Thucydides, The Melian Dialogue