Who else find villains reformation story arcs over use these days.

[starborn427614]

I can't really recall any shows I've watched recently that actually use the trope, they tended to have their antagonists die at the end. But like others have said, it's how you use the trope not the trope itself that either leads to mid or brilliant characterization and storytelling.

 

[Oats12345]

I can't really recall any shows I've watched recently that actually use the trope, they tended to have their antagonists die at the end. But like others have said, it's how you use the trope not the trope itself that either leads to mid or brilliant characterization and storytelling.

True. I'm talking more about She-Ra and Steven Universe shows where they pretty much ignore the villains crimes.

Amphibia is probably the most recent show I can think of where I actually like the how they handle all three villians redemptions.

 

[DNA_JACKED]

I think many writers have jumped on it because you cant make a good antagonist in modern media, so the only way to make them interesting at all is to have a redemption arc.

 

[starborn427614]

True. I'm talking more about She-Ra and Steven Universe shows where they pretty much ignore the villains crimes.

Amphibia is probably the most recent show I can think of where I actually like the how they handle all three villains redemption.

Well Hordak Prime got vaporized and Steven cucked the Diamonds into fixing the corrupted gems then got them to slowly tear down every aspect of the empire over the course of two years, but that's mostly covered off-screen so there's not much nuance to chew on. Amphibia I've never watched (another show I need to put on the backlog after I get done with Primal) but I've heard decent things about its antagonists and how they were handled.

Catra is still the worst example in my eyes if we're sticking to 2010's shows.

She gets the benefits of the protagonists with none of the drawbacks. I'm willing to swallow a lot when it comes to simplistic moral storytelling in kids shows, just don't have these characters literally be friends with the main cast. Allies sure, but not friends. Zuko is the exception to the rule because he was a victim himself and in spite of that still worked to become a better person and be worthy of being part of Team Avatar.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

the thing with villain redemption arcs is you have to either have the character not be that bad to begin with - Megamind - have him be brainwashed or a child - Zuko - or introduce a way worse villain and then kill off the redeemed one - Darth Vader.

How I see it, this trope only works if the villain had no ability/knowledge/lack of attachment to become good (examples in order: Be forcibly conscripted, live in a culture where the bad thing is justified, have a loved one that is dependent on the villains). And if that character does not take the road to redemption the millisecond those things disappear then any redemption plot line fails.

But modern writers are so in love with the idea that it's basically a get out of jail card for villain sues by giving shitty justifications for their actions and lack of responsibility for the consequences.

 

[Oats12345]

Well Hordak Prime got vaporized and Steven cucked the Diamonds into fixing the corrupted gems then got them to slowly tear down every aspect of the empire over the course of two years, but that's mostly covered off-screen so there's not much nuance to chew on. Amphibia I've never watched (another show I need to put on the backlog after I get done with Primal) but I've heard decent things about its antagonists and how they were handled.

Catra is still the worst example in my eyes if we're sticking to 2010's shows.

She gets the benefits of the protagonists with none of the drawbacks. I'm willing to swallow a lot when it comes to simplistic moral storytelling in kids shows, just don't have these characters literally be friends with the main cast. Allies sure, but not friends. Zuko is the exception to the rule because he was a victim himself and in spite of that still worked to become a better person and be worthy of being part of Team Avatar.

Yes Hordak Prime was vaporize. but all the other villians of that show were giving free out of jail cards in the end.

 

[starborn427614]

Yes Hordak Prime was vaporize. but all the other villians of that show were giving free out of jail cards in the end.

When it comes to antagonists being allowed to roam free after the fact, you need at least a solid reason not to axe them off. Not inciting another major war due to making them martyrs or that their literal essence has healing properties is at least enough reason for the Diamonds not to be slayed. They're useful idiots, to use a modern term. Definitely not friends and definitely not welcome to stay anyway near the main cast just due to the whole awkward nature of them being former dictators. Catra has no reason to be allowed to stay near the main cast of She-Ra other than "uwu muh soft gays".

 

[Oats12345]

When it comes to antagonists being allowed to roam free after the fact, you need at least a solid reason not to axe them off. Not inciting another major war due to making them martyrs or that their literal essence has healing properties is at least enough reason for the Diamonds not to be slayed. They're useful idiots, to use a modern term. Definitely not friends and definitely not welcome to stay anyway near the main cast just due to the whole awkward nature of them being former dictators. Catra has no reason to be allowed to stay near the main cast of She-Ra other than "uwu muh soft gays".

Not only Catra but all the other villians too they commit offer crimes. But in the end their just accepted as people who were just looking for friends. Like what!?

 

[starborn427614]

Not only Catra but all the other villians too they commit offer crimes. But in the end their just accepted as people who were just looking for friends. Like what!?

The ones that do that are definitely poorly written in my eyes. To wrap back around to the theme of the topic, I don't mind these redemption arcs (even if some are less redemption and more pacification) but it would be nice to toss in some chaotic evils here and there. Maybe I should just binge some old Disney films for that sort of thing

 

[God of Nothing]

I hate the "troubled good guy, well-meaning bad guy" trope. There are people out there who want nothing but to genuinely do good in the world, and there are people who crave evil for the sake of it. Moral ambiguity doesn't make a character more "human"

For me, it's people who are deplorable but don't try defending themselves. Murderers, rapists, and thieves who could hardly give a shit about most other people. Hell, corrupt politicians who are too busy trying to get power to care about morals or otherwise. I do find them even better if there's a likable quality to their personality, not anything redeeming. Like, an assassin who's casual about their job and chatting with the hero while he's trying to kill him.

That to me is more human than any kind of ambiguity. The fact people can be devoid of morals and principles while still being capable of enjoying another person's presence. Makes you feel like something is genuinely wrong there. But, in reality, that's just how some people are.

 

[Doctor of Autism]

Villain redemption stories are not bad necessarily but it depends on how a writer handles them.

Like in terms of the really shitty ones, Modern Star Wars and Texas Chainsaw Massacre 3D in how I think of the absolute worst ones.

Modern Star Wars seems to give a redemption arc as a way to rehash Vader's (like Kylo in Episode IX) or to any female or minority character. It's honestly really sexist that Nu-Star Wars essentially makes all their female villains some horrible person but they suddenly redeem themselves because they have some tragic backstory, and it doesn't allow those actors to play the role of a villain but some scared abuse victim who cries about trauma or is angry all the time to suddenly have a change of heart.

Texas Chainsaw Massacre 3D is the best example of an unearned redemption arc because the story wants you to think that Leatherface and his cannibal murder family are good lil' southerners who are only terrible because the corrupt police hate them despite them murdering shitloads of innocent people.

There are still good modern redemption arcs for villains like all the ones presented in Mob Psycho 100, but the difference with that and the other ones beyond the medium it's in is that all the redemption arcs fit the themes and tone of the show and are earned while having those villains face consequences or new challenges afterwards whereas with the previous examples the villains get away with everything.

 

[The Great Chandler]

For me, it's people who are deplorable but don't try defending themselves. Murderers, rapists, and thieves who could hardly give a shit about most other people. Hell, corrupt politicians who are too busy trying to get power to care about morals or otherwise. I do find them even better if there's a likable quality to their personality, not anything redeeming. Like, an assassin who's casual about their job and chatting with the hero while he's trying to kill him.

That to me is more human than any kind of ambiguity. The fact people can be devoid of morals and principles while still being capable of enjoying another person's presence. Makes you feel like something is genuinely wrong there. But, in reality, that's just how some people are.

Reminds me of why characters like Tony Soprano are fascinating to many viewers. He is unapologetically a scumbag and no poor upbringing can justify what he's does. Some fans may try to paint him as this "morally ambiguous antihero", but he's a VILLAIN protagonist for a reason. Unambiguously despicable, but interestingly human in his own way.

 

[God of Nothing]

Reminds me of why characters like Tony Soprano are fascinating to many viewers. He is unapologetically a scumbag and no poor upbringing can justify what he's does. Some fans may try to paint him as this "morally ambiguous antihero", but he's a VILLAIN protagonist for a reason. Unambiguously despicable, but interestingly human in his own way.

Never really liked Tony because of that aspect. Mr. Tough Guy who still cries about his childhood. It would be one thing if he were intelligent, but we all saw his fuckups and inability to control himself. I liked Christopher more, and that guy was a wife-beating junkie. Paulie too. Think it was him trying to be something he wasn't.

 

[starborn427614]

Villain redemption stories are not bad necessarily but it depends on how a writer handles them.

Like in terms of the really shitty ones, Modern Star Wars and Texas Chainsaw Massacre 3D in how I think of the absolute worst ones.

Modern Star Wars seems to give a redemption arc as a way to rehash Vader's (like Kylo in Episode IX) or to any female or minority character. It's honestly really sexist that Nu-Star Wars essentially makes all their female villains some horrible person but they suddenly redeem themselves because they have some tragic backstory, and it doesn't allow those actors to play the role of a villain but some scared abuse victim who cries about trauma or is angry all the time to suddenly have a change of heart.

Texas Chainsaw Massacre 3D is the best example of an unearned redemption arc because the story wants you to think that Leatherface and his cannibal murder family are good lil' southerners who are only terrible because the corrupt police hate them despite them murdering shitloads of innocent people.

There are still good modern redemption arcs for villains like all the ones presented in Mob Psycho 100, but the difference with that and the other ones beyond the medium it's in is that all the redemption arcs fit the themes and tone of the show and are earned while having those villains face consequences or new challenges afterwards whereas with the previous examples the villains get away with everything.

Mob is so great. Really glad it's getting a third season.

 

[Pokemonquistador2]

I think a lot of this is tied to Shounen series, where the baby-eating villain can get a redemption arc just because he joined up with the heroes at the last second to fight an even bigger villain.

 

[God of Nothing]

I think a lot of this is tied to Shounen series, where the baby-eating villain can get a redemption arc just because he joined up with the heroes at the last second to fight an even bigger villain.

It's similar. In the west, it's more an inability to keep a popular villain a villain so they can market them more and an inability to make 100% villainous females anymore. I mean, did we really need a movie for Cruella and Snow White's bitch aunt?

 

[WULULULULU]

Villains/Anti-Villains with understandable goals > Villain redemption arcs

 

[Oats12345]

Villains/Anti-Villains with understandable goals > Villain redemption arcs

True. But now and days I feel like villains who who weren't portrayed sympathetic are now being redeem way to easily.

For instance the chilling adventures of Sabrina tried really hard to redeem the villian Madame Statan who had killed plenty of innocents in the first season with out remorse. Granted the show tried to be very woke. So that may have been wokness in the end of the day.

But still goes hand to hand

 

[God of Nothing]

Villains/Anti-Villains with understandable goals > Villain redemption arcs

Absolutely. If there's redemption, the character in question wasn't a villain in the first place or at least shouldn't have fully been.

 

[Crybaby Xianghua]

I think stories are not about earning happy endings anymore. It is all about forced, unearned, "Everybody is a winner" happy endings.

Good lord, the Twilight Saga (especially Breaking Dawn) was a sad, tragic, mistake unleashed upon the world of fiction. Now everybody is coddling and babying their fictional creations, like they are real living beings, instead of treating them like puppets in a puppet show. Man, I miss the pre-Twilight era of fiction and fandoms.