Why did the ESV remove verses from Matthew 6:13 - Yes it's still in the endnotes

[Crysocyan]

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: for thine is the kingdom, and the power and the glory, forever. Amen

And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

My church uses the ESV, but they still read the verses which got shoved to the end of chapters and move them back into the text for the pulpit. I heard the Gideon's ESV fixed this issue and forced Crossway to put the Textus Receptus verses back into the body text. And I'm condsidering buying one of those because ESV reads better than NKJV.

 

[Bogliacci]

Differences arise depending on how the translator translates the greek from various sources, and also depends on various sources themselves as some include references to the evil and the kingdom, some do not.

 

[Beak Thing]

I don't think it's in the original text, it's an embellishment in KJV the text that aligns with the Protestant form of the Our Father (in Catholic usage the doxology is only said during Mass). The Douay-Rheims from the same period as the KJV doesn't include the doxology, although I don't recall which text that's based off of.

In any case I'd assume the ESV translation is more accurate and uses the best source texts given the 400 or so years of additional Biblical scholarship since the KJV. The KJV is a real work of art but it takes some liberties with the translation as a product of its time. Some are minor but strange such as the mentions of satyrs.

 

[Blasterisk]

Early documents of Matthew don't have it, the full one is from later texts. Interestingly, nobody ever added to the same text in Luke.

I personally am for its inclusion with the note that it wasn't always there, and I pray the "full thing".

 

[PixarsTedKennedy]

The KJV adds all kinds of stuff. I don't understand why anyone still reads it who isn't one of those wacky KJV only guys. Actually I guess if it's your preferred version that's fine, but I've met so many people who told me they tried reading the Bible but it was too hard...and it's always a free KJV that someone gives them. Stop giving it out. It's ruining the spreading of the gospel haha.

 

[Crysocyan]

I don't think it's in the original text, it's an embellishment in the text that aligns with the Protestant form of the Our Father.

The Douay-Rheims from the same period as the KJV doesn't include the doxology, although I don't recall which text that's based off of

It's based off of Jermone's Vulgate which was translated from the Septuagint and Majority Text manuscripts of the New Testament.

In any case I'd assume the ESV translation is more accurate and uses the best source texts given the 400 or so years of additional Biblical scholarship since the KJV.
The KJV is a real work of art but it takes some liberties with the translation as a product of its time. Some are minor but strange such as the mentions of satyrs.

Early documents of Matthew don't have it, the full one is from later texts. Interestingly, nobody ever added to the same text in Luke.

I personally am for its inclusion with the note that it wasn't always there, and I pray the "full thing".

I've always thought that since God has promised to preserve his Word, which it definitely has been, that God wouldn't permit wrong or incomplete translations or textual manuscripts to proliferate.

The KJV adds all kinds of stuff. I don't understand why anyone still reads it who isn't one of those wacky KJV only guys.

I'm technically KJVO (I don't read anything besides KJV or NKJV) but I think that other translations are mostly fine. Personally, I read it because I find it's the most beautiful Bible to read aloud. And I also think that it's important to have a Bible without footnotes or endnotes. And because the KJV is one of the few Protestant Bible with Apocrypha (depending on which version you buy).

Actually I guess if it's your preferred version that's fine, but I've met so many people who told me they tried reading the Bible but it was too hard...and it's always a free KJV that someone gives them. Stop giving it out. It's ruining the spreading of the gospel haha.

I think that KJVO types, or at least people who are usually called KJVO, mostly hand out NKJVs (or other Textus Receptus translations).

 

[PixarsTedKennedy]

Well by KJVO type I mean the kind that believe it's the only accurate bible to read. I've met one that said that even the greek text wasn't good enough. If you want to read a translation with antiquated language, be my guest. I like to play PS1 games over PS5 games, I can't judge.

 

[Crysocyan]

If you want to read a translation with antiquated language, be my guest. I like to play PS1 games over PS5 games, I can't judge.

That's actually a pretty great analogy: the video-game industry is similar to the Bible translation industry i.e. both used to extremely difficult and attracted talented and creative people. Whereas now the industry has stagnated for decades, publishing the exact same product with slight revisions and new gimmicks.

 

[El Goblina]

This is how it looks from the KJVO side.

 

[Smug]

That's actually a pretty great analogy: the video-game industry is similar to the Bible translation industry i.e. both used to extremely difficult and attracted talented and creative people. Whereas now the industry has stagnated for decades, publishing the exact same product with slight revisions and new gimmicks.

And are infiltrated by people with political agendas. If your version isn't being published by a Christian organisation, then that's already a huge red flag.

Whether KJV or ESV, at least it's not the NIV. That one's constantly being edited in fucky ways but sadly still is treated by so many churches as a 'serious' version.

 

[Overcast]

And are infiltrated by people with political agendas. If your version isn't being published by a Christian organisation, then that's already a huge red flag.

Whether KJV or ESV, at least it's not the NIV. That one's constantly being edited in fucky ways but sadly still is treated by so many churches as a 'serious' version.

Would you mind telling me in what ways the NIV has messed with the Bible?

I'm still relatively new to the faith and I've been reading that version for a while and I want to read the most accurate (while still understandable) version if possible.

 

[Smug]

Would you mind telling me in what ways the NIV has messed with the Bible?

I'm still relatively new to the faith and I've been reading that version for a while and I want to read the most accurate (while still understandable) version if possible.

I did some digging to refresh my memory and there's no way I can give a comprehensive account of all of the details, but for a few examples:

Downplaying of Jesus's miracles in:
John 5:4, Luke 8:42-45, John 11:41, Mark 1:31, Mark 3:14-15, and many others.

An interesting verse comparison:
1 Corinthians 6:9 (KJV) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Corinthians 6:9 (NIV) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

KJV: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matthew:23:14

NIV: (missing)

The more I look, there are tons of missing verses in the NIV.

A massive list of differences

The most interesting part though is that the NIV received a couple of revisions in 2004 and 2011 respectively. What did they change?

They made everything they could gender neutral.

This site is a pretty good place for comparing a verse between a few different versions.

I didn't even get into the changes involving the bias of the NIV publishers, but hopefully that helps give an idea.

 

[Overcast]

I did some digging to refresh my memory and there's no way I can give a comprehensive account of all of the details, but for a few examples:

Downplaying of Jesus's miracles in:
John 5:4, Luke 8:42-45, John 11:41, Mark 1:31, Mark 3:14-15, and many others.

An interesting verse comparison:
1 Corinthians 6:9 (KJV) Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,

1 Corinthians 6:9 (NIV) Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men

KJV: Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
Matthew:23:14

NIV: (missing)

The more I look, there are tons of missing verses in the NIV.

A massive list of differences

The most interesting part though is that the NIV received a couple of revisions in 2004 and 2011 respectively. What did they change?

They made everything they could gender neutral.

This site is a pretty good place for comparing a verse between a few different versions.

I didn't even get into the changes involving the bias of the NIV publishers, but hopefully that helps give an idea.

Thank you so much for this.

It feels like in my walk with Christ, more and more things are coming to light and it's inspired me to take scripture far more seriously as a result.

God Bless You!

 

[Agent Abe Caprine]

This is how it looks from the KJVO side.

View attachment 4021611

There's a Nestle translation of the Bible?