Why is civilization considered an inherent good?

[The News Crews]

The human animal was meant to live in small-scale, tightly-knit social groups with a high degree of independence. This is the exact opposite of the world we live in today, we live in towns and cities with thousands of people we will never know. We are more lonely than ever, with the internet making things tremendously worse. Even when you have friends they are mostly just entertainment for each other and not true deep friendships. And we are so heavily tied to the system that’s it’s impossible to have true independence.

All of this started with the introduction of agriculture, and with it civilization, a massive change in the lifestyle that the human animal was not evolved to endure.

 

[Urban Paradise]

We are more lonely than ever, with the internet making things tremendously worse.

I completely disagree with this. If anything, the internet has been therapeutic. It is an outlet for voicing your frustration and giving you a chance to share that frustration with others in an easy and free way.

Even when you have friends they are mostly just entertainment for each other and not true deep friendships.

I suggest you build higher standards of what friends and friendships mean. If they see you as just a way to entertain themselves, they're not your friends.

All of this started with the introduction of agriculture, and with it civilization, a massive change in the lifestyle that the human animal was not evolved to endure.

Even in tribal societies, there are odd ones out. Regardless of what society exists, there will always be those on the fringe of it.

 

[Dagoth AMOGUS]

It is inevitable. Human beings seek perfection through technological advancements. Even if you started from scratch, people would still say "Man i wish I could heat this food up somehow" and discover fire.

 

[Nicholas Gur]

1. Because it benefits the weak (the majority)
2. It facilitates cooperation, which extends the limits of individual power.

 

[Core Theorist]

"I feel lonely and unfulfilled in this modern world, what could the possibilities be?"

1. "Maybe YOU just aren't cut out for IT? It's not a big deal, hermits and anchorites were a recognized reality for hundreds and thousands of years. Just learn to live with yourself and carve out own smaller community if it's so important to you."

2. "Civilization itself was a mistake. Medicine, advanced communication, religion, quality of life, general convenience, art and science, and every other benefit (which you have already benefitted from in your own life, don't fuck with me) isn't worth it at all. You should go innawoods and chuck spears at bears, and when you get hurt go put dung in your gaping wounds like a caveman."

Yeah, it's definitely 2.

EDIT: typos.

 

[The News Crews]

I completely disagree with this. If anything, the internet has been therapeutic. It is an outlet for voicing your frustration and giving you a chance to share that frustration with others in an easy and free way.

It’s delusional to act like the internet hasn’t negatively impacted social interaction. The prime example is dating apps, whereas you used to meet your partners in bars, classrooms, introductions by friends. You are now given a shopping list of potential partners, commodifying dating and relationships.
This is also ignoring the dozens of studies showing that yes, people are getting lonelier

I suggest you build higher standards of what friends and friendships mean. If they see you as just a way to entertain themselves, they're not your friends.

Except how many people these days (especially online “friendships”) would actually sacrifice their safety or resources for their so-called friends? Very few.

Even in tribal societies, there are odd ones out. Regardless of what society exists, there will always be those on the fringe of it.

When did I say that wasn’t the case? And even then it was much lower than the rate these days. And besides socialization isn’t even half the issue when it comes to civilization

It is inevitable. Human beings seek perfection through technological advancements.

A better way of saying it would be that humans desire efficiency to their own detriment. But even then the switch to agriculture was hardly as much of a choice as some think. Most societies that became agricultural only did so because they were forced by already existing agricultural societies

 

[Slap47]

In the 18th century England experienced an event called the "Gin Craze". People began drinking astronomical amounts of distilled spirits that were being sold on every street corner to the point where even parliament noticed enough to pass multiple Gin Acts.

Part of this came from the government refusing to ban gin and actually making money from taxing it. Part of this was people discovering this brand new drink. However, the biggest part of it was urbanization. London was exploding in population and the cities were being filled with hundreds of thousands of people leaving their small village communities looking for work after their land was enclosed.

They just couldn't handle being surrounded by thousands of strangers in cramped squalor conditions. It was unnatural. How does this story end? Pretty boringly as the government and fledgling press just stopped caring. Thats why civilization rises. People freak out, but then stop caring.

 

[El Goblina]

"Civilization" is paraphyletic. Not all cultures are equal, and scarce few of them have redeeming qualities. They crucified the only guy who ever approached getting things right, and it took people about three hundred years to mess that up.

 

[Vect]

Because I like restaurants, electricity and nice furniture.

 

[Urban Paradise]

It’s delusional to act like the internet hasn’t negatively impacted social interaction. The prime example is dating apps, whereas you used to meet your partners in bars, classrooms, introductions by friends. You are now given a shopping list of potential partners, commodifying dating and relationships.

The way I see it, the internet is like a hammer. It can be equally useful and destructive. It is simply a communication tool. If corporations that existed before the internet are using it for a profit motive to the detriment of society, I suggest you don't use their products - easier said than done, though.

This is also ignoring the dozens of studies showing that yes, people are getting lonelier

My point was that if the internet had never existed, there would be no socially acceptable mechanism to express disdain about your current situation. It's like blaming car-centric infrastructure for loneliness when those living in walkable, pedestrian-friendly infrastructure suffer the same levels of loneliness, too.

When did I say that wasn’t the case? And even then it was much lower than the rate these days. And besides socialization isn’t even half the issue when it comes to civilization

The further back in time you go, the greater the likelihood of being considered a social outcast increases. Society as a whole is more tolerant and acceptingfor better or for worse of those different from them. People forgot how stringent hierarchies of the past were, with no opportunity for upward mobility.

 

[CAPTAIN HAPPY]

 

[Lord of the Large Pants]

I'll let David Mitchell explain.

 

[Beautiful Border]

Because the alternative was being preyed on by big cats, having to constantly worry about where your next meal was coming from, and dying at 30 from an injury we can now easily treat. It's very easy to romanticize the hunter-gatherer lifestyle, but going from what we have now to that would suck. Most people's problems nowadays are both self-inflicted and come from their life being too comfortable. Troon shit is people obsessing over their own genitals because they don't actually have anything real to worry about.

The implicit appeal of the "return to the Stone Age lifestyle" fantasy is having your frivolous, unsubstantial problems stripped away and being made to focus on the only thing that really matters: Survival. That's a thought experiment you can conduct in your head. You don't have to actually live it, and if you traded places with a Paleolithic man I guarantee you would quickly regret it the moment you feel hungry and realize you can't simply pop to the shop for some groceries.

 

[XL xQgg?QcQCaTYDMjqoDnYpG]

@The News Crews independently of the other posters in this thread
I would argue that civilization is not an "inherent good". The core issue is that what people call "civilization" simultaneously refers to the division of labor that enabled the wealth we currently have, as well as the parasitic superstructure of states, priest-kings, and mass manipulation that came with it.
The shift from pre-agricultural man to "civilization" allowed for greater productivity, but this was then hijacked by states.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Try living outside of it to get your answer.

 

[TheLostMarxBrotherFucko]

All of this started with the introduction of agriculture, and with it civilization, a massive change in the lifestyle that the human animal was not evolved to endure.

Nigga you had me until this point.

I completely disagree with this. If anything, the internet has been therapeutic. It is an outlet for voicing your frustration and giving you a chance to share that frustration with others in an easy and free way.

Screaming into the wind only helps some people.

Medicine, advanced communication, religion, quality of life, general convenience, art and science, and every other benefit (which you have already benefitted from in your own life, don't fuck with me) isn't worth it at all. You should go innawoods and chuck spears at bears, and when you get hurt go put dung in your gaping wounds like a caveman."

That is completely ignoring any and all negative aspects of the industries those have created. Did you take The Jab? Science? An industry where you can pay to get what data you want? That industry. Religion? Catholics trafficking immigrants using NGOs and religious institutions.

 

[göremiyorum]

Because in practice, it allowed more people to live under better conditions. It's hard to be an idealist when a small cut can kill you.

 

[Core Theorist]

(What I said earlier)

(...)That is completely ignoring any and all negative aspects of the industries those have created. Did you take The Jab? Science? An industry where you can pay to get what data you want? That industry. Religion? Catholics trafficking immigrants using NGOs and religious institutions.

Of course all of the benefits of civilization have their own downsides. But "civilization (in and of itself) is... le bad!" is an absurd response to these problems. Most of the problems you expressed are more of a result of the more modern Line Go Up/Globalism type cultures, instead of generalized 'civilization'.

Did more racially-based (or similar) cultures with a strong sense of nationalistic duty have these same problems we face today, in our modern globalist culture overly obsessed with continuous meteoric profit and needlessly advancing technology while ignoring cultural stability? No, or at least not nearly to he same extant. Obviously, these older cultural types had their own problems too, there's no denying that, but to say that the modern rot overtaking modern humanity is indicative of the problem of advanced civilization in general is a very reductive take.

I still understand what both you and OP are getting at (despite the general OP faggotry), modern globalistic civilization as a whole can easily be considered as too oversized and cumbersome for little benefit, but 'civilization' in and of itself, as in "tribes of tribes" is a benefit to its constituents just like a smaller 'tribe' is a benefit to its own constituents. The actual problem is the naïve extension of the globalist 'tribe of tribes' being understood as 'the entire planet, all of humanity', and similar naiveties like the obsession with "GDP", or other jewish nonsense.

 

[Professor G. Raff]

 

[Großmann]

The human animal was meant to live in small-scale, tightly-knit social groups with a high degree of independence. This is the exact opposite of the world we live in today, we live in towns and cities with thousands of people we will never know.

These towns and cities are comprised of many small-scale, tightly-knit social groups with varying degrees of independence (it depends on what you mean here). All that happened is that society scaled up and people can get around faster and more easily. You can still get involved in your local community and get to know who people are and what’s going on.

Even when you have friends they are mostly just entertainment for each other and not true deep friendships

This is a personal issue. You make the company you attract and have the friends you deserve.

And we are so heavily tied to the system that’s it’s impossible to have true independence.

Can you expand on this point? What is the system you’re referring to?