Why is civilization considered an inherent good?

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Most human groups evolved to civilization, the ones that didn't are either dysfunctional or extinct.
Except that's clearly not the case, if we were somehow evolved for civilization then we wouldn't be exhibiting behaviors that clearly stem from an evolutionary mismatch (Chronic anxiety, depression, lack of life satisfaction, etc). I won't deny that thousands of years of agriculture have somewhat affected our behaviors, but it is not nearly enough time to offset 90k plus years as hunter gatherers. Not to mention that natural selection slowed down after civilization (and especially after industrial civilization)
Also "dysfunctional" as if any modern-day industrial country is in any way not dysfunctional.
 
Except that's clearly not the case, if we were somehow evolved for civilization then we wouldn't be exhibiting behaviors that clearly stem from an evolutionary mismatch (Chronic anxiety, depression, lack of life satisfaction, etc). I won't deny that thousands of years of agriculture have somewhat affected our behaviors, but it is not nearly enough time to offset 90k plus years as hunter gatherers. Not to mention that natural selection slowed down after civilization (and especially after industrial civilization)
Also "dysfunctional" as if any modern-day industrial country is in any way not dysfunctional.
I'm not sorry you're dissatisfied with life and blaming "civilization" isn't going to fix it. Didn't your parents ever tell you the world isn't fair? Didn't you listen?
 
I'm not sorry you're dissatisfied with life and blaming "civilization" isn't going to fix it. Didn't your parents ever tell you the world isn't fair? Didn't you listen?
Except it's increasingly obvious that most people aren't satisfied with their life. Have you considered that you are just a cuck and you enjoy being lorded over? MAYBE you can make the argument that Europeans, and other agrarian peoples are evolved for substance farming, but even that way of life is extremely different from modern-day industrial society.
 
Except that's clearly not the case, if we were somehow evolved for civilization then we wouldn't be exhibiting behaviors that clearly stem from an evolutionary mismatch (Chronic anxiety, depression, lack of life satisfaction, etc).
Dude, even farm animals are recorded to live happier in farms than in the wild. Not being eaten every night or dying from a cut would be a lot more calming.

It just sounds like you try to take the already gay dislike of industrialization and turn it to even gayer "return to monke".
 
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Dude, even farm animals are recorded to live happier in farms than in the wild
I don't think this is true, but even if it were
1) Farm animals were specifically bred to live in that
2) Humans aren't farm animals
Not being eaten every night or dying from a cut would be a lot more calming.
Human hunter-gatherer rarely gets hunted by large predators except in rare circumstances where the animal is absolutely desperate. Also once again the whole "dying from a cut" meme is overblown. Do you think Hunter-gatherers were just bumbling retards? They understood basic wound-care and had their own types of rudimentary medicine.
It just sounds like you try to take the already gay dislike of industrialization
"No bro, you should like the constant destruction of the environment, the unavoidable toxins in the air, the loud polluted cities, the shitty jobs that you work until you are old and weak, having to deal with lobotomized individuals who grew up on the internet, the constant tightening of government and corporate control, and the very clear evolutionary mismatch we find ourselves in"
I can understand how some would still think agriculture and civilization is good, by I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could think that industrialization was a good thing in the year of our lord 2025
 
It isn't. Cain, the farmer in genesis represents the nations who make urban agricultural societies. Abel, his superior brother is the landless pastoralist, who brings a sheep before god as sacrifice and is accepted. Cain kills his brother like agricultural urabanists enslave and kill pastoral nomads.

The synthesis of all things is the Davidic kingdom: The pastoralist (david kills goliath by his skill at the sling which he used to protect the sheep as a pastoralist) subjecting the horror of the city and agriculture to divine and just rule.

Perfection is the domination of pastoral chads over agricultural virgins, leading to a synthesized society that excels against all things.

EDIT: while we have our christian myths above to explain this in poetic terms, this is also the history of europe, with the steppe pastoralist men who spoke indo-european coming across the land, dominating the old european farmers and subjecting them into the "perfect" rule of our societies. Romans, Germans, all of us were steppe nomads who conquered and subjected "old european farmers" to servitude. So while cain, abel and david give us a good myth, we also know this was the course of the world, even among us who aren't from the levant.
 
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Euros had a relationship with God for a long time so it makes sense that there are parallels
 
The human animal was meant to live in small-scale, tightly-knit social groups with a high degree of independence. This is the exact opposite of the world we live in today, we live in towns and cities with thousands of people we will never know. We are more lonely than ever, with the internet making things tremendously worse. Even when you have friends they are mostly just entertainment for each other and not true deep friendships. And we are so heavily tied to the system that’s it’s impossible to have true independence.

All of this started with the introduction of agriculture, and with it civilization, a massive change in the lifestyle that the human animal was not evolved to endure.
It allows you to have the free time to make shitposts like this.
 
Jacques Ellul mentioned that at least back then you had a real choice of leaving society, with monasteries even providing some support promoting asceticism; hell, you could even be a pirate or join a warband and prey upon the society you left, but now everything is designed to bind you to society and prevent that from happening, so they gaslight you if you ever wax poetic about the outside world/nature, claiming it's evil or something, yet the whole project right now is imitating nature as much as possible. Your only option really is just a mass egregoric herd of random people called "civilization" that runs like a giant corporation, using the mass herd as guinea pigs in their pet projects, to help reveal even further methods of binding.
 
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I don't know. It's interesting how civilisation has changed the technological progression of humanity. Before civilisation, innovation emerged to fulfil a need. Spears were invented to level the playing field, fire was harnessed to get more calories from food. Now, civilisations advance for the sake of it. We invent things that create needs, things that create problems, things that solve those problems, all for the sake of progress. It was probably only hundreds of years ago where the average human had a standard of life greater than the average hunter-gatherer, despite (because of?) thousands of years of civilisation. I don't want to go back to hunting animals. I like my laptop and I like electricity. But it worries me how civilisation has us working towards a vague, inhuman end goal for humanity.
 
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Also once again the whole "dying from a cut" meme is overblown. Do you think Hunter-gatherers were just bumbling retards? They understood basic wound-care and had their own types of rudimentary medicine.
Lol at best they had something that slightly cleaned the wound. But usually they'd just use whatever ridiculous shit coincided with the person getting well.

"No bro, you should like the constant destruction of the environment, the unavoidable toxins in the air, the loud polluted cities, the shitty jobs that you work until you are old and weak, having to deal with lobotomized individuals who grew up on the internet, the constant tightening of government and corporate control, and the very clear evolutionary mismatch we find ourselves in"
I can understand how some would still think agriculture and civilization is good, by I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could think that industrialization was a good thing in the year of our lord 2025
That's just retarded. You are just going with industrial society shit but try to one up it by claiming we should go full monke. Heck with hunter gatherer you have the same issues unless you are so naive you buy the noble savage trope.
 
"No bro, you should like the constant destruction of the environment, the unavoidable toxins in the air, the loud polluted cities, the shitty jobs that you work until you are old and weak, having to deal with lobotomized individuals who grew up on the internet, the constant tightening of government and corporate control, and the very clear evolutionary mismatch we find ourselves in"
I can understand how some would still think agriculture and civilization is good, by I cannot for the life of me understand how anyone could think that industrialization was a good thing in the year of our lord 2025
Being part of highly advanced civilizations is preferable as being an undeveloped tribe puts you at risk of exploitation by greater powers. The only reason that uncivilized tribes still exist is by the grace of more advanced societies. I'm a firm believer in the Red Queen's hypothesis. You need to pursue technological development to the utmost as that's required to just remain equal to others.

If you wish to give away all your autonomy to those who aren't afraid of power, go ahead.
 
Except it's increasingly obvious that most people aren't satisfied with their life. Have you considered that you are just a cuck and you enjoy being lorded over? MAYBE you can make the argument that Europeans, and other agrarian peoples are evolved for substance farming, but even that way of life is extremely different from modern-day industrial society.
Most people are happy with their lives though

There's also the question of whether being happy with your life would necessarily mean you think civilization is great, and whether being unhappy with your life would necessarily mean you think civilization sucks

You sound extremely in need of social validation. But you're seeking it parasocially on the internet. And even more unhappy when company doesn't love your misery. I'm not sorry you haven't gained the validation you wish and instead of blaming yourself it makes you sullenly lash out at everyone and everything that doesn't reinforce what you already believe. Have you considered that crying someone who doesn't agree with you must be a cuck that enjoys being lorded over makes you look whiny as fuck?
 
That's just retarded. You are just going with industrial society shit but try to one up it by claiming we should go full monke
I've had these thoughts for years, and besides anarcho-primitivism has been a philosophy since the 1800's. It's not just "le internet contrarianism".
Heck with hunter gatherer you have the same issues unless you are so naive you buy the noble savage trope.
Please name some of these "similar" issues
Also I have never perpetuated the noble savage myth. I never deny that Hunter Gatherers engage in warfare, have a non-insignificant amount of murder and rape, have a huge amount of child mortality, have many other characteristics that we would consider unsavory in today's society, etc. I am simply saying that their way of life is what the human animal was evolved for, and thus results in a more fulfilling life. Not to mention the inherent restrictive nature of civilization (and especially industrial civilization).
Literally everything I have said ITT has been backed up by decades of anthropology, while you and other users are just making arguments based on conjecture and your own predisposition to thinking that primitive life is bad.
Jacques Ellul mentioned that at least back then you had a real choice of leaving society, with monasteries even providing some support promoting asceticism; hell, you could even be a pirate or join a warband and prey upon the society you left, but now everything is designed to bind you to society and prevent that from happening, so they gaslight you if you ever wax poetic about the outside world/nature, claiming it's evil or something, yet the whole project right now is imitating nature as much as possible. Your only option really is just a mass egregoric herd of random people called "civilization" that runs like a giant corporation, using the mass herd as guinea pigs in their pet projects, to help reveal even further methods of binding.
Ted Kaczynski (Ellul-lite) commented on something similar to this
Regarding your question, there is so much to say in reply to it that I find it impossible to keep my answer brief. I’ll confine myself to three points of the many that could be made.

(a) It’s true that in many societies the extended family, the clan, or the village could be very confining. The paterfamilias (the “old man” who headed the extended family), or the council of village elders, kept people on a leash.

But when the paterfamilias and the village elders lost their grip on the leash as a result of modernization, it was picked up by “the system,” which now holds it much more tightly than the old-timers ever did.

The family or the village was small enough so that individuals within it were not powerless. Even where all authority was theoretically vested in the paterfamilias, in practice he could not retain his power unless he listened and responded to the grievances and problems of the individual members of his family.[7]

Today, however, we are at the mercy of organizations, such as corporations, governments and political parties, that are too large to be responsive to single individuals. These organizations leave us a great deal of latitude where harmless recreational activities are concerned, but they keep under their own control the life-and-death issues on which our existence depends. With respect to these issues, individuals are powerless.

(b) In former times, for those who were willing to take serious risks, it was often possible to escape the bonds of the family, of the village, or of feudal structures. In medieval Western Europe, serfs ran away to become peddlers, robbers, or town-dwellers. Later, Russian peasants ran away to become Cossacks, black slaves ran away to live in the wilderness as “Maroons,” and indentured servants in the West Indies ran away to become buccaneers.[8]

But in the modern world there is nowhere left to run. Wherever you go, you can be traced by your credit card, your social-security number, your fingerprints. You, Mr. N., live in California. Can you get a hotel or motel room there without showing your picture I.D.? You can’t survive unless you fit into a slot in the system, otherwise known as a “job.” And it is becoming increasingly difficult to get a job without making your whole past history accessible to prospective employers. So how can you defend your statement that “[m]odern urban society allows one to escape into an anonymity that family and clan based cultures couldn’t”?

Granted, there are still corners of the world where one can find wilderness, or governments so disorganized that one can escape from the system there. But these are relics of the past, and they will disappear as the system continues to grow.

(c) “Today,” you write, “one can…adopt whatever beliefs or lifestyle one wants. One can also easily travel, experiencing other cultures….”

But to what end? What, in practical terms, does one accomplish by changing one’s beliefs or lifestyle, or by experiencing other cultures? Essentially nothing—except whatever fun one gets from it.

People don’t need only fun, they need purposeful work, and they need to have control not only over the pleasure-oriented aspects of their lives but over the serious, practical, purposeful, life-and-death aspects. That kind of control is not possible in modern society because we are all at the mercy of large organizations.

...

But even under the most oppressive conditions of the past, people were not as powerless as they are today. Russian serfs, for example, had means of resisting their landlords. They engaged in deception, theft, poaching, evasion of work, arson. If a peasant got angry enough, he would kill his landlord. If many peasants got angry at the same time, there would be a bloody revolt, a “jacquerie.”[9]

It’s not a pretty picture. But it is at least arguable that Russian serfs had more freedom—the kind of freedom that really counts—than does the average well-trained, modern middle-class person, who has almost unlimited freedom in regard to recreational activities but is completely impotent vis-à-vis the large organizations that control the conditions under which he lives and the life-and-death issues on which his existence depends.
Most people are happy with their lives though
The world happiness index is so horribly calculated, it's a joke, measuring shit like GDP per capita as somehow objective measure of happiness. And Nordic countries as the happiest? You mean the ones getting flooded by refugess? The ones with high suicide rates? (Sweden 12.6, Finland 15.3, Norway 13.19). The ones with high anti-depressant usage? (if you need to be drugged in order to tolerate life you don't live a good life). 15 percent of Icelanders use anti-depressants . Also lol at that site naming the UK as a happy country.
thank you dr fauci1.webp
and whether being unhappy with your life would necessarily mean you think civilization sucks
"I am unhappy because of the modern condition that we live in is an evolutionary mismatch to what we were designed to endure" is a perfectly sound answer to this.
You sound extremely in need of social validation. But you're seeking it parasocially on the internet
Are you retarded? This is the "deep thoughts" forum, I made a thread because I wished to discuss this topic with others. Naïve of me to think that anyone on this forum (or the autistic thunderdome in general) has a basic grasp of anthropology. But you're right Sigmund Freud, I should have made my thread "niggers stinky amirite fellas?" And gotten 1 million updoots
I'm not sorry you haven't gained the validation you wish and instead of blaming yourself it makes you sullenly lash out at everyone and everything that doesn't reinforce what you already believe.
Read the thread, literally everyone I replied to who has argued a pro-civ position hasn't done any actual research into primitive life. They just make conjectures about it based on what they experience in modern-day industrial life. I have yet to see any actual proper argumentation in this thread. Your posts in particular are apparent seething "civilization is good okay! You're just a heckin loser o algo"
Have you considered that crying someone who doesn't agree with you must be a cuck that enjoys being lorded over makes you look whiny as fuck?
I called you a cuck because that is what you are, you and so many others ITT are so personally defending industrial civilization like it's the honor of your lover. The system which further restricts human behavior, forces them to live in an unnatural environment, with technology that only further gives governments and corporations more and more control over our everyday lives. It's one thing to defend civilization, it's one thing to defend agriculture. It's another to act personally offended that someone DARES question whether all this "progress" is even worth it.
Being part of highly advanced civilizations is preferable as being an undeveloped tribe puts you at risk of exploitation by greater powers. The only reason that uncivilized tribes still exist is by the grace of more advanced societies. I'm a firm believer in the Red Queen's hypothesis. You need to pursue technological development to the utmost as that's required to just remain equal to others.
If we are going by history, yes this is literally exactly what happened. Agricultural societies took over hunter-gatherer societies because they needed the land and more people to work the fields was always nice. However, this says nothing about the quality of life between these two societies (in which I have already provided a link in a previous post of mine, where the average height decreased after adopting agriculture, and the bones showed signs of malnutrition.)




Now if you actual niggers are capable of reading a book, I would recommend "against the grain", which goes into the history of the early agricultural states and how they weren't as much of a improvement as traditional knowledge says.
 
1) Farm animals were specifically bred to live in that
2) Humans aren't farm animals
human animal
Decide if humans are animals or not first.
I've had these thoughts for years, and besides anarcho-primitivism has been a philosophy since the 1800's. It's not just "le internet contrarianism".
It was retarded then and it is retarded now.
Please name some of
constant destruction of the environment: things like Indians running buffalos out of cliffs. Especially as more and more humans live that way.

shitty jobs that you work until you are old and weak: You hunt/gather until you either die young or get exiled for not pulling your weight.

having to deal with lobotomized individuals who grew up on the internet: having to deal with malnutrition uneducated tribe members.

the constant tightening of government and corporate control: being literally raped as a right of passage by the current leader.

You think you are going to be the alpha male chad hunter. More likely you'd be the beta male that gets raped by the alphas during hunting trips.
 
If we are going by history, yes this is literally exactly what happened. Agricultural societies took over hunter-gatherer societies because they needed the land and more people to work the fields was always nice. However, this says nothing about the quality of life between these two societies (in which I have already provided a link in a previous post of mine, where the average height decreased after adopting agriculture, and the bones showed signs of malnutrition.)
Any quality of life that primitive societies have is inherently unsustainable as they are subject to the whims of advanced civilizations.
 
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Decide if humans are animals or not first.
I said FARM animals. As in animals specifically bred to be livestock. (And before you or some other moron says "well doesn't that apply to humans too?", Perhaps you can make that argument for agricultural society but industrial society is so far removed from what agricultural society was that even if we were, it wouldn't matter because we are in another evolutionary mismatch.)

constant destruction of the environment: things like Indians running buffalos out of cliffs. Especially as more and more humans live that way.
The destruction of the environment in hunter-gatherers is nowhere near the industrial scale of deforestation, mining, oil drilling, etc. While it's true that megafauna were hunted to extinction, those are the exceptions. All other species still retained adequate populations.

There were also Aboriginal and Native American tribes who practiced controlled burnings for different reasons, but these again hardly comparable to the industrial-scale deforestation and permanent destruction of land to make way for another mega parking lot. Not to mention the constant top-soil erosion from unsustainable farming practices.
shitty jobs that you work until you are old and weak: You hunt/gather until you either die young or get exiled for not pulling your weight.
Except (as already stated 3 different times) hunter-gatherers don't view work in the same way that we view work. Their work is not toil or daily drudgery but enjoyable social activities with a clear goal that you can see the result of and immediately reap the rewards from.
having to deal with lobotomized individuals who grew up on the internet: having to deal with malnutrition uneducated tribe members.
Malnutrition isn't as bad of a problem that it's made out to be, again I'll repeat myself that it was the agriculturalists who were the malnourished ones. And when they weren't they had manboobs

It's incredibly disingenuous to compare what the internet has done to our brains to simply being "uneducated". The internet has made us addicted to instant gratification nonsense, the mere presence of a smartphone reduces your cognition, has reduced our attention spans, has made an entire generation used to primarily online interaction and become awkward offline, has made people more lonely, has led a decrease in nuanced thinking, and quite literally makes you retarded.
I also disagree with the notion that somehow these tribe members are "uneducated". Sure they don't know the periodic table or anything about world war 2. But they understand the tribe's culture and customs. They know how to hunt, forage, and generally live off the land. They are educated in the ways that actually matters to them. But I suppose since they don't know the pythagorean theorem they are basically just mindless NIGGERS.
the constant tightening of government and corporate control: being literally raped as a right of passage by the current leader.
YOU
FUCKING
NIGGGEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

Hunter-Gatherers have no leaders, this is the most basic bitch, freshman-tier, babies first anthropology lesson. Fishing villages, and Pastoralists did, but we aren't talking about those. I'm not sure how often I should keep saying this because clearly it's not getting through that thick skull of yours.
You think you are going to be the alpha male chad hunter. More likely you'd be the beta male that gets raped by the alphas during hunting trips.
I never said I'd be a "the alpha male chad hunter". Anyways alpha and beta shit don't exist in hunter-gatherer tribes, but thank you for sharing your homosexual rape fantasies with me.

I'm almost through replying to you because it's clear that you are either actually retarded, willfully ignorant, or just trolling
Any quality of life that primitive societies have is inherently unsustainable as they are subject to the whims of advanced civilizations.
It wasn't always like that, agriculture only appeared roughly 9k years ago and even then they only really became the top dogs around 4 thousand years ago. The question however isn't "was civilization inevitable?" It's "why is civilization considered an inherent good?"
 
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It wasn't always like that, agriculture only appeared roughly 9k years ago and even then they only really became the top dogs around 4 thousand years ago. The question however isn't "was civilization inevitable?" It's "why is civilization considered an inherent good?"
Civilization and pursuing its advancement is inherently good because it allows you and your society to remain on top rather than become subject to more advanced foreign powers.
 
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