Why is Matrix popular? Why isn't XMPP? - A man struggles with understanding alternative chat solutions.

  • 🐕 I am attempting to get the site runnning as fast as possible. If you are experiencing slow page load times, please report it.
:lossmanjack:
Why the fuck did this article didn't specify which matrix it was?? Post deleted
Can't blame you. A cursory 30 second check would've established that one is like an open source decentralized protocol and one is a private app for criminals.
 
an open source decentralized protocol
I feel like this phase comes with so many caveats these days. But, I think the reason why a lot of social "decentralized protocols" are not successful these days is because people are lonely and crave attention. Privacy and centralization is a trade off people are willing to make for it.
 
They're both for criminals, just with different crimes.
Nah Matrix chat (the decentralized/whatever one) is actually used by a lot of open source projects and legitimate non-criminal users.
It's like saying IRC is for criminals - it is used by criminals but that is definitely not its primary userbase.
 
Gatekeeping is absolutely necessary, not just for the sake of 'decenteralisation', but for the sake of the other people already on the network
Seems like a terrible solution on a network and protocol level. Wouldn't this be best regulated to personal friend groups respecting each other's posts and hosting them by mere association (i.e, if my friend retweets something, he hosts it too so I can see it?).

If you have gatekeeping on a protocol level, you're requiring fragile human norms regulate the internet. That didn't work for Usenet, it's not going to work now, especially if you're trying to make something normal people use.
You want to bring new users in but avoid attracting hoards of them that usually end up crowding and overburdening specific servers.
The nature of normalfags necessitates that this happens, basically. They choose by name and by easiest button to press, whoever has the biggest name and the easiest button to press to start posting is going to be the one who end
 
Like what's been said before, it's easier to install a Matrix server, even Synapse's Python mess than running XMPP. Running an XMPP server with all the modern requirements makes a mess and you won't be able to get anyone normal to use it, especially on mobile. XMPP seems to be the new "just use IRC, bro" that some contrarian tech guys will obsess over.
If you want to self host Synapse and not federate it, its fairly easy if you have Linux knowledge. It gets annoying when you want to host your own identity provider or try to forgo one. Self hosting the STUN and TURN servers works well enough. The one annoying thing is they seem to gate keep using things like stickers to their closed source server. As far as performance, it works fine but I do have a strange slowness when it comes to uploading and downloading media.
I've tried ShareX and it works but am a bit concerned about using their relays instead of self hosting. It has the same issues with receiving messages as other chat apps do that don't use Google's notification system.
 
It gets annoying when you want to host your own identity provider or try to forgo one.
I've never used one and been completely fine.
The one annoying thing is they seem to gate keep using things like stickers to their closed source server.
They seem to be on the path to allowing it in element. Third party clients have had custom emojis and stickers for a long time, entirely self hosted, and requiring no changes to the server. They just store emoji information in extra room/user properties (im.ponies.room_emotes).
 
  • Informative
Reactions: Kendall Motor Oil
Yes, this is a great thread. It will take me some time to read it again and maybe address each point separately, but let me start from the recurring items.

There is a fine line between criminality and liberty. Leaving the philosophical debate alone, the government is drawing this line and they can redraw it whenever it suits them. The whole idea of modern cryptography, the internet, and the cypherpunks group that gave us BitTorrent, Blockchain, PGP and other tools mentioned here, is that the government is NOT the omnipotent master of the universe and we do know better what to think, what to discuss or what information to share. That's it, all that copyrights, censorship and, most recently, CSAM are different sides of the same coin, which is to shape human interactions on the internet in a way that the media, the politicians or other inside parties have their interests protected. You cannot fight the government and help the government at the same time.

This being said, there are different trilemmas regarding p2p networks, like the scalability trilemma: you can't have a network that is perfectly scalable, secure and decentralized at the same time, there is always a tradeoff here. This also affects anonymity, privacy, data throughput, cost efficiency, UX/UI and so on. There are people who work on various cryptographic algorithms that make these tradeoffs less hurtful, but to no surprise, the centralized services are "almost" perfect in all applications, with the only drawback being centralized so "that one lawsuit can easily kill" them. When we want to achieve decentralization, we need to let go of some other parameters. I'm not prepared at the moment to offer an up-to-date analysis of the portfolio, but there are some good starting points: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_instant_messaging_protocols https://www.privacytools.io/ https://anonymousplanet.org/

One item that I see missing in this debate is the Freenet Project and, inside of it, the FMS – Freenet Message System. It does implement the Web of Trust in a secure manner, but is terribly slow. There are numerous papers on the topic but let's just explain the basics: every peer maintains their trust list onto which either they embark specific trustees by hand (friends) or let the algorithm compute the effective trust level of a given peer, based on the "trust list trust" of the peers they already trust multiplied by the direct trust those peers have against that given peer. Example: I don't know C, but my friends A and B say they trust him 10% and 80% respectively, but since I value my friends opinion as 50% and 20% respectively, I get C = (A*A'+B*B')/(A'+B') =
(0.1*0.5+0.8*0.2)/0.7 = 30% effectively. This way, any single friend cannot manipulate me into not trusting C just because they don't trust C, yet if everyone has no trust to C (e.g. C is a spammer), I receive the recommendation (which I can still manually override) of low trust to C. In such a system, every peer can exist and use the network to some extent and even if every other peer except one wishes them dead, they can still communicate with their partner.

A similar approach is recently emerging on BlueSky, however all the major frontend apps are still subscribed to the central moderation service. I still haven't read 133 pages of the BlueSky thread, but I see the potential of this network, given they fork the network to disconnect from troonspace. Matrix is obviously beyond that point already, but since the network is not 100% p2p (the homeservers are different node types than clients), the plausible deniability argument does not adhere. In Freenet, everyone would process the data of everyone else, just not knowing what is inside of encrypted messages they process (and thus not falling under any criminal liability), which is not true for the Matrix instance admins. Perhaps morg developers will eventually (or already did) provide the means of protecting hs cache from malicious agents but there is also another way, namely onion instances. You may or may not know, but running synapse is already Tor-aware (can't say it's supported though) and currently possible to run both in onion-onion and dns-onion manners. The former is only reachable from homeservers that "understand" onion addresses and the latter can serve as a gateway, e.g. hosts a room where both morg and onion users can meet and have conversations. I can provide a full technical tutorial on how to set up such instances and if you are familiar with matrixspace, you've seen such ones already (not saying it is easy to set up or problem free though).

In the final paragraph, I would also like to say a few good things about SimpleX. It has done some progress in the last year or so. If you connect via Tor, it is so far probably the easiest UI/UX for a normie to find and creating a private encrypted room for 10+ users is feasible. They do, however, struggle with litigation and currently debate on how to bork the protocol a little so that CSAM is eliminated. Evgeny is quite a reasonable guy, open to arguments so if you actually have ideas on how to improve the protocol, I encourage you to join the "SimpleX users group" room and engage in the discussion. They do have those algorithm guys I mentioned, an official client for all major platforms that doesn't suck and are currently not in the monetization phase so there is a hope.
 
How does one go about discovering public chat rooms on XMPP? I have found the Jabber search engine, but it looks too sparse to be comprehensive.
 
As this is basically the matrix thread at this point, heres some notable matrix news for those not already aware.
  • Morg has released a damage control blog post detailing how much they care about abuse on their homeserver
    • “One of our main focuses is tackling child sexual exploitation and abuse.”
    • “We work with the Internet Watch Foundation (IWF), National Center for Missing and Exploited Children (NCMEC), cybertip.ca, the Australian eSafety Commissioner and other parties.”
    • “We use Cloudflare’s CSAM detection APIs on unencrypted content on Matrix.org.”
    • “We block rooms, remove media and suspend users who participate in rooms dedicated to sharing CSEA.”
  • Morg has nuked their public room directory (again) due to "harmful content" (child porn)
    • “In early 2024 we noticed an uptick in users creating rooms to share harmful content.” (problem has existed since 2022)
    • “We landed on first reducing the discoverability and reach of these rooms”
    • “in May 2024 we froze the room directory. Matrix.org users were no longer permitted to publish their rooms to the room directory.”
    • “Servers should not let users publish rooms unless there are appropriate filtering and moderation tools in place”
    • “We're exploring discovery as a topic, including removing the room directory API.”
  • Morg is running out of money (again)
    • “Without Trust & Safety efforts, bad actors and communities would proliferate on the network and make it unlivable for the rest.” (lmao)
    • “unless the Foundation manages to raise $100,000 of funding by the end of March 2025, we will have to … shut down all the remaining bridges hosted by the Matrix.org Foundation. This includes bridges to Slack, XMPP, OFTC (IRC), and Snoonet (IRC)”
In community matrix news, a notable lolicon streamer was found to have participated in a matrix room where convicted pedophiles discussed how they wished to rape toddlers.

This has been your matrix news summary. Thank you Matthew Hodgson for this revolutionary chatroom technology.
 
Like what's been said before, it's easier to install a Matrix server, even Synapse's Python mess than running XMPP. Running an XMPP server with all the modern requirements makes a mess and you won't be able to get anyone normal to use it, especially on mobile. XMPP seems to be the new "just use IRC, bro" that some contrarian tech guys will obsess over.
Both I and a friend have run Jabber, and previously Matrix, instances for 4+ years now. Everything you just said is objectively false.

A working Prosody server that has everything most server ops and individual users could ask for takes less than 20 minutes to be up and running, and requires very little prerequisite setup.
 
I don't hate matrix, but last time I tried it, it seemed like hosting your own server was quite resource-heavy and all the servers I tried were slow. So I have no reason to quit IRC anytime soon, IRC is simple and works blazingly fast because of that + you can encrypt your connection so that's not a problem either.
 
  • Like
Reactions: The Anarki Main
why did the matrix hate stop?
It hasn't. It's just so tiresome to keep rehashing the same issues of 1) shitty protocol 2) shitty developers 3) shitty clients 4) cp spam.

Thought to mention this in the thread the last time I checked in but I didn't consider it that noteworthy. Several homeservers and community rooms (GNOME, KDE, Mozilla, & Morg rooms) are being attacked by deranged cp spammers.

1747407363696.webp
1747407363874.webp
1747407738455.webp
1747408494854.webp

imo matrix deserves it's own community watch thread but I can't seem to write up anything I'm happy with. If anyone feels they're up to the task or would be willing to coauthor I'd be happy to share what I know.
 
Back