Why people always get fascism wrong, especially among progressives? - Discuss fascism and the constant misusage of the word and ideology (and why a larger percentage of that happens among the progressive crowd)

[The handsome tard]

We live in an age of easy access to information and yet something I almost always see is the recurrent misunderstanding and/or misusage of the term "fascism".

Now, dont get me wrong, I wont act like Im an expert on every single detail and variation of it but it doesnt require a genius to know that 9/10 when a progressive uses the term, its usually innacurate and it normally comes down to "individual/group does something I do not approve."

Either that or they straight up declared things like "not using masks is fascism and it should be punished" during the days of Covid (fuck, ocassionally you can still find someone that still claims this) and good luck trying to understand the logic of liberals demanding the government commit actions against the average person that shares different opinions.

Some examples I can think on the top of my head is their association between basic nations of nationalism with fascism, like the mere suggestion of a stronger border wall.

Or that criminals deserve harsher punishments (with the argument of "insurance will cover it", showing they have no idea how insurance actually works)

Or that freedom of speech is fascist (yes, we are hearing that completely ironically with a straight face from them now) because it means they can be called niggers and faggots online and they are expected to not throw a tantrum about it.

Or that suggesting we shouldnt introduce gender studies for toddlers and kids until they are old enough is fascism. Because they may not be old enough to drink, vote or know the whole alphabet but they surely know they arent the sex they were born with.

Or that how the Trump admistration was fascist even tho you will be pressed to find something he did that was actually so. And yet remain quiet with Biden, Castro's Son and Ukraine's puppet leader (among others).

So while I wont pretend that its just them, progressives do stand out as the group that practically doesnt seem to understand fascism no matter what. And discussing with them seems to be an exercise in futility because you wont change their minds and they will likely consider you "part of the problem" too.

So how could something like this have happened? Especially since we live in the age of digital information so getting things this wrong just shouldnt be possible. Is it ignorance? Stupidity? Maliciousness? A combination of all of them?

Anyway, share your thoughts and takes about it.

 

[Baguette Child]

I'm sure this will be a rational and productive thread with no shitflinging whatsoever.

 

[Chilson]

So how could something like this have happened?

Jews, no seriously its unironically Jews. It became a buzzword to attack literally anything that was seen as "anti-Jewish" alongside the term Nazi. Something the Jews took full advantage of in the post WW2 shock over the holocaust. This evolved into being a slang term against anything Authoritarian because Nazi's were dramatized as authoritarian dictators in popular media from the 50's onwards (the reality was that they were actually not that oppressive to the German people and even released jews back to their German wives on at least one occasion in the 40's due to public pressure). Which makes sense in a pre-internet age where information was difficult to find and the only thing most people knew about Nazi's is that they were also fascists. Mind you, Nazi is just an abbreviation for "National Socialist German Worker" but most people don't really look beyond the abbreviation either.

Most people have remained ignorant and stupid resorting to buzzwords they don't understand to describe things they don't like. Which isn't helped by every mainstream source of information on Fascism (which is still a retarded ideology because its just nationalized communism and communism in any form is of course retarded) refuses to actually elaborate in simple terms what Fascism is because its politically inconvenient to tie it to its socialist/communist tenants/roots that have become the ironic black boots on the necks on anyone who the powers that be don't like.

TL;DR Most people are ignorant, those in power go to great lengths to hide this information and Fascism is just as retarded as any other communist ideology because it is one.

 

[Grub]

Because, like a lot of things in current year +/- it's become a buzzword that can mean whatever they want.

"not using masks is fascism and it should be punished" during the days of Covid

That shit is behaviour you'd expect from a fascist government. Punishing non-compliance to an arbitrary decree not grounded in any kind of facts is something a fascist government would do.

The problem is even if they sit there and read the definition of fascism they still won't understand because this

To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them, to use logic against logic, to repudiate morality while laying claim to it, to believe that democracy was impossible and that the Party was the guardian of democracy, to forget whatever it was necessary to forget, then to draw it back into memory again at the moment when it was needed, and then promptly to forget it again: and above all, to apply the same process to the process itself -- that was the ultimate subtlety: consciously to induce unconsciousness, and then, once again, to become unconscious of the act of hypnosis you had just performed. Even to understand the word 'doublethink' involved the use of doublethink.

Is very real and apparent in the general population today about a huge number of things. What this means is while they may know and understand what fascism is they're able to just ignore that shit and believe whatever their version of fascism is simultaneously and both are correct in their minds and they can just subconsciously ignore the inconsistencies in their own beliefs because of years of being trained to by media.

It's the same when it comes to a lot of the insanity of clown world in general.

 

[Chongqing]

Recently I was talking with a friend of mine who is a very far Leftist (we don't agree on politics but enjoy discussing it with each other). He told me he thinks Trump is a fascist. I asked him why specifically a fascist? What does that mean to you?

He said there was some essay written in the first half of the 20th century written by some Italian guy that lays out what fascism is (I can't remember the name of the essay or the author, I'm sorry, but apparently it's well known). He said one thing that sticks out in fascism and in Trump is "silencing the media," as he said. I think that's a combination of advocating for congress to defund NPR, being rude to reporters in person, and also trying to start Truth Social.

So that was interesting.

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Recently I was talking with a friend of mine who is a very far Leftist (we don't agree on politics but enjoy discussing it with each other). He told me he thinks Trump is a fascists. I asked him why specifically a fascists? What does that mean to you?

He said there was some essay written in the first half of the 20th century written by some Italian guy that lays out what fascism is (I can't remember the name of the essay or the author, I'm sorry, but apparently it's well known). He said one thing that sticks out in fascism and in Trump is "silencing the media," as he said. I think that's a combination of advocating for congress to defund NPR, being rude to reporters in person, and also trying to start Truth Social.

So that was interesting.

Probably Umberto Eco's "fascism detector' list, which is absolutely bullshit. Notwithstanding thr fact that Eco himself is a fucking commie who, of course, calls anything opposing communism fascism, his "traits of fascism" are so vague that they can be applied to any seriously political movement that tries to accomplish its goals. And on top of that, Eco went on to carve out even more wiggle room by saying that the list wasn't comprehensive and not all fascists displayed all traits so... yeah. It's a textbook panchreston, where the definition is so lose that it encompasses basically everything.


I prefer Nick Land's definition, "the normalization of wartime powers in a peacetime setting."

 

[Chongqing]

Probably Umberto Eco's "fascism detector' list, which is absolutely bullshit.

That was exactly it! Thank you.

 

[AgendaPoster]

progressives

Conservatives call almost everyone they disagree with socialists, including nazis; they often call liberals with political power fascists; and they call every far rightwinger a fed.
You want the actual truth?
Almost everyone is retarded and lies intentionally, and they deserve to be put in a gulag.

 

[topsykrets]

fascism isn't real, it's a nebulous and meaningless term used to deride any and all opposing political thought regardless of affiliation.

 

[Harbinger of Kali Yuga]

fascism isn't real, it's a nebulous and meaningless term used to deride any and all opposing political thought regardless of affiliation.

Even the fascists, like Mussolini, never really formally defined it or had any coherent body of thought.

 

[ToroidalBoat]

"fascism" can be a soy way to say "wrongthink"

Which is how the Clown World BS that supporting free speech is "fascist" emerges.

 

[Bull Kike]

When Progs call someone a Fascist they really mean Nazi, and nothing is worse to them than being a Nazi. If you ask them to describe Fascism they’ll either be painfully incorrect or just be describing Nazism. The reason why they mix both Ideologies up is because of decades of propaganda and because they are retarded.

I know some people ITT might disagree with me when I say this but when you understand what both of these Ideologies stand for you’ll see they are very different.

 

[The handsome tard]

Conservatives call almost everyone they disagree with socialists, including nazis; they often call liberals with political power fascists; and they call every far rightwinger a fed.
You want the actual truth?
Almost everyone is retarded and lies intentionally, and they deserve to be put in a gulag.

I actually call anyone that disagrees with me fake and gay, does that count?

 

[LatinasAreTheFuture]

Fascism is simply reactionary struggle. A new politics sweeps the people and destabilizes the state: in response reactionaries form unitary groups to struggle with the radicals.

 

[Black Man Underwear]

Anyway, share your thoughts and takes about it.

¡Ay, caramba! My chance!

Fascismo is based on a few details. All actual fascist regimes have at least the following in common:

• Corporate Statism

The Corporate State is based on the idea that the state should act as a mediator, ensuring total class cooperation.
This is manifested differently in each regime. Some of the more famous proponents include Hitler, Pope Leo XIII, Gentile, Mosley, and Spengler.
Who better to cite an explanation than Mussolini and Gentile's "The Doctrine of Fascism":

When brought within the orbit of the State, Fascism recognizes the real needs which gave rise to socialism and trade unionism, giving them due weight in the guild or corporative system in which divergent interests are coordinated and harmonized in the unity of the State.
[The state] is not simply a mechanism which limits the sphere of the supposed liberties of the individual... Neither has the Fascist conception of authority anything in common with that of a police ridden State... Far from crushing the individual, the Fascist State multiplies his energies, just as in a regiment a soldier is not diminished but multiplied by the number of his fellow soldiers.

In NSDAP, the S stood for Oswald Spengler's interpretation of "socialism", which was this.

• Public Central Banking & Inventive Currency Backing

All fascist regimes nationalize their central bank. Branch banks might remain private, but the money must be printed by the state with no shares sold elsewhere.
Nazi Germany did not have a fiat system. Instead they got creative, tying their currency to their annual exports. Based on its results, this idea worked very well, but information on its practice is limited.

• Antisemitism

Severely toned down by Franco, Salazar, and their compatriots after WW2, most fascist nations were antisemitic, at least on paper.

• Anti-Communism & Anti-Capitalism

Back to the Corporatist point, fascism is neither capitalist nor communist, and generally opposes both systems.

But, faggot, this doesn't say anything about democracy, free speech, muh gunz, or niggers!

Das rite nigga!

 

[Tablet County]

I prefer Nick Land's definition, "the normalization of wartime powers in a peacetime setting."

Is that fascist? I would think that definition would be more fitting for a junta. Unless juntas are considered fascist?

 

[SNU]

It's a by product of a loophole. Some people crave violence or to bully people for the fun of it. Violence and bullying is not allowed. What do you do if you talk about being tolerant or peaceful but you really want to bully or exert your will on someone? Do you try your best to be nice and peaceful even though you just want to ruin someones day for the fun of it? No you find loopholes. The loophole is that it's acceptable if it's a socially acceptable bad guy. Fascists are the current socially acceptable bad guy. It's okay to do anything to them because they are a bad guy.

Now what do you do if you want to bully or exert your will on someone you dont like but they arent a Fascist? You call them a Fascist. It doesn't matter if they are one or not. Call them one and they are one. Then you can do anything you want to them. Hit them, say awful things to them, just generally be an asshole to them. You get to have all the fun you want but you're still a good guy who's so peaceful and tolerant.

If you go around calling everyone a Fascist just so you can be an asshole and feel good about it then eventually the word gets watered down and no one really knows what it means anymore. When that happens eventually a new bad guy will be picked as the socially acceptable bad guy and it all starts over again. It's the bad guy treadmill.

The people doing it don't care what fascism actually means. They just want to bully people they don't like but not be called a bully

 

[Krokodil Overdose]

Is that fascist? I would think that definition would be more fitting for a junta. Unless juntas are considered fascist?

They generally are, along with communist regimes to boot. That was part of Land's point: ideological flavor text aside, the gap between "fascism" and "actually existing communism " is negligible.

 

[verissimus]

Is that fascist? I would think that definition would be more fitting for a junta. Unless juntas are considered fascist?

I call it just tyranny. Like really, when did the words tyranny or tyrannical stop being a thing?

 

[Drain Todger]

fascism isn't real, it's a nebulous and meaningless term used to deride any and all opposing political thought regardless of affiliation.

Umberto Eco's 14 Core Characteristics of fascism are as follows:

1. "The cult of tradition", characterized by cultural syncretism, even at the risk of internal contradiction. When all truth has already been revealed by tradition, no new learning can occur, only further interpretation and refinement.
2. "The rejection of modernism", which views the rationalistic development of Western culture since the Enlightenment as a descent into depravity. Eco distinguishes this from a rejection of superficial technological advancement, as many fascist regimes cite their industrial potency as proof of the vitality of their system.
3. "The cult of action for action's sake", which dictates that action is of value in itself and should be taken without intellectual reflection. This, says Eco, is connected with anti-intellectualism and irrationalism, and often manifests in attacks on modern culture and science.
4. "Disagreement is treason" – fascism devalues intellectual discourse and critical reasoning as barriers to action, as well as out of fear that such analysis will expose the contradictions embodied in a syncretistic faith.
5. "Fear of difference", which fascism seeks to exploit and exacerbate, often in the form of racism or an appeal against foreigners and immigrants.
6. "Appeal to a frustrated middle class", fearing economic pressure from the demands and aspirations of lower social groups.
7. "Obsession with a plot" and the hyping-up of an enemy threat. This often combines an appeal to xenophobia with a fear of disloyalty and sabotage from marginalized groups living within the society. Eco also cites Pat Robertson's book The New World Order as a prominent example of a plot obsession.
8. Fascist societies rhetorically cast their enemies as "at the same time too strong and too weak". On the one hand, fascists play up the power of certain disfavored elites to encourage in their followers a sense of grievance and humiliation. On the other hand, fascist leaders point to the decadence of those elites as proof of their ultimate feebleness in the face of an overwhelming popular will.
9. "Pacifism is trafficking with the enemy" because "life is permanent warfare" – there must always be an enemy to fight. Both fascist Germany under Hitler and Italy under Mussolini worked first to organize and clean up their respective countries and then build the war machines that they later intended to and did use, despite Germany being under restrictions of the Versailles treaty to not build a military force. This principle leads to a fundamental contradiction within fascism: the incompatibility of ultimate triumph with perpetual war.
10. "Contempt for the weak", which is uncomfortably married to a chauvinistic popular elitism, in which every member of society is superior to outsiders by virtue of belonging to the in-group. Eco sees in these attitudes the root of a deep tension in the fundamentally hierarchical structure of fascist polities, as they encourage leaders to despise their underlings, up to the ultimate leader, who holds the whole country in contempt for having allowed him to overtake it by force.
11. "Everybody is educated to become a hero", which leads to the embrace of a cult of death. As Eco observes, "[t]he Ur-Fascist hero is impatient to die. In his impatience, he more frequently sends other people to death."
12. "Machismo", which sublimates the difficult work of permanent war and heroism into the sexual sphere. Fascists thus hold "both disdain for women and intolerance and condemnation of nonstandard sexual habits, from chastity to homosexuality".
13. "Selective populism" – the people, conceived monolithically, have a common will, distinct from and superior to the viewpoint of any individual. As no mass of people can ever be truly unanimous, the leader holds himself out as the interpreter of the popular will (though truly he alone dictates it). Fascists use this concept to delegitimize democratic institutions they accuse of "no longer represent[ing] the voice of the people".
14. "Newspeak" – fascism employs and promotes an impoverished vocabulary in order to limit critical reasoning.

That's not my own personal definition of fascism, however.

1. Fascism is right-wing ethno-nationalism/nativism, combined with a reduced form of state socialism whereby the state directs industries centrally but does not nationalize them. This stands in contrast to the Soviet system, which nationalized industry.
2. To a fascist, the state and the people are the same thing. That is to say, a state is the incorporation of a specific ethnic group on its own land. Under the fascist conception of the state, it is the case that states cannot persist through the death or ethnic replacement of their people. This stands in stark contrast to many liberal democracies, where the state is a separate institution from the people and may persist in their absence. France, for instance, has a notion of "color-blind" statehood where the state itself is supreme and the ethnicities of the people composing it are irrelevant. Even if France were 100% Algerian immigrants tomorrow, they would all be "Frenchmen" according to the state.
3. Under fascism, usury and rent-seeking are evil. Only productive capital, money paid for services physically rendered, is of value. This is where a great deal of the antisemitism intrinsic to fascism comes from, due to the perception that Jews were the beneficiaries of economic rent and did not labor (sound familiar?).
4. Fascism is also an authoritarian system, usually based around a single dictator with a personality cult, using the excuse of a perpetual emergency (usually in the form of war) to accord themselves unprecedented powers.

Corporate Statism
The Corporate State is based on the idea that the state should act as a mediator, ensuring total class cooperation.
This is manifested differently in each regime. Some of the more famous proponents include Hitler, Pope Leo XIII, Gentile, Mosley, and Spengler.
Who better to cite an explanation than Mussolini and Gentile's "The Doctrine of Fascism":

The funniest thing about this is that the closest modern-day equivalents to fascism as Mussolini conceived of it would be the state-directed corporatism of the People's Republic of China, or the private-public partnerships heralded by Davos. Or Singapore. Or, hell, Israel.

Most of the people accused of being fascists today are classical liberals or right-libertarians who just want to get rid of managerial capitalism and replace it with old-school entrepreneurial capitalism. There are very few actual fascists walking around. A fair number of Neo-Nazis don't even understand fascism themselves, or try and downplay the collectivist and socialist aspects of it.