Why would God allow suffering to exist?

[Otterly]

Imagine, OP, that you’re playing a game. Building a world, maybe, but let’s take a game of pub football as an example.
Can you win the game by just taking a gun and shooting dead your opponents, then knocking in twenty easy goals? Yes. Can you win the game by cheating outrageously? Also yes
But what’s the point? The point of playing the game is to test yourself against the team from the Dog and Duck. We have many situations in life where intentionally hobble ourselves to a set of rules, or we suffer needlessly. Maybe you’re running a ten k at the weekend and you’re tired, be easier to drive the course but you go out anyway and train.
Why do we do these things? To grow, to experience. Suffering is a part of experience. Another analogy: Struggle is necessary for life. Evolution works by acting ‘in the generation/moment’ to remove variants that don’t make it from reproducing, leaving ones that are subtly different or have a different variance range. What happens if there’s zero pressure to evolve? You’ve got slime. What happens to humans when we have no hard winters to prepare for? What happens when we live in warm tropical climates where food grows abundantly? You get cultures that are dumb and lazy.
Suffering is struggle and struggle is required for growth.
And with that said, why would we presume to know the intentions of God? I’m sure he has his reasons, beyond the obvious ones we can see

 

[McAfee]

Why No Free Cookie?

 

[xXx: State of the Union]

If millions of babies dying of cancer is an integral part of your "plan", you're evil - that is the most quintessentially supervillain-ish thing I can possibly imagine.

Do you get this upset when a tree is cut down? When fish are harvested? Millions of things die every day, but it's the human babies that matter?

This isn't even getting into the fact that through death you have an end of suffering and access to eternal bliss.

There is no pleasure without pain, there is no bliss without suffering. If you are mad that you don't have eternal bliss on Earth, then your problem should be with Eve and the Devil, not God.

What is it you do, exactly, to help with the suffering of the world? The suffering of those around you?

 

[RandomTwitterGuy]

Imagine, OP, that you’re playing a game. Building a world, maybe, but let’s take a game of pub football as an example.
Can you win the game by just taking a gun and shooting dead your opponents, then knocking in twenty easy goals? Yes. Can you win the game by cheating outrageously? Also yes
But what’s the point? The point of playing the game is to test yourself against the team from the Dog and Duck. We have many situations in life where intentionally hobble ourselves to a set of rules, or we suffer needlessly. Maybe you’re running a ten k at the weekend and you’re tired, be easier to drive the course but you go out anyway and train.
Why do we do these things? To grow, to experience. Suffering is a part of experience. Another analogy: Struggle is necessary for life. Evolution works by acting ‘in the generation/moment’ to remove variants that don’t make it from reproducing, leaving ones that are subtly different or have a different variance range. What happens if there’s zero pressure to evolve? You’ve got slime. What happens to humans when we have no hard winters to prepare for? What happens when we live in warm tropical climates where food grows abundantly? You get cultures that are dumb and lazy.
Suffering is struggle and struggle is required for growth.
And with that said, why would we presume to know the intentions of God? I’m sure he has his reasons, beyond the obvious ones we can see

However, the issue is that God already knew the outcome from the start. He is all-knowing, after all. So, is good unable to provide better means to better oneself without suffering? Is he not powerful enough to create a better way?

So when you are on the marathon and cheat, that is a product of God knowing that you would cheat, provided the life experiences and obstacles that lead you to want to cheat.

If he is the creator of all, he knows all and controls all. Then God wanted you to cheat and will not punish you for that choice.

However, if there is no God, then evolution and struggle make sense, as no divine will is guiding us. Only how nature and the environment pressure will change us.

Do you get this upset when a tree is cut down? When fish are harvested? Millions of things die every day, but it's the human babies that matter?

We are limited in our view, and we are not God's. If I could snap my finger and stop cutting trees and harvesting fish in a way that would not harm others, I would do that.

However, I am only a man.

There is no pleasure without pain, there is no bliss without suffering. If you are mad that you don't have eternal bliss on Earth, then your problem should be with Eve and the Devil, not God.

Are you saying that god is weaker than the devil and he could not foresee what would happen?

 

[CrackPipeCowboy]

Some good questions to ask would be: "What is suffering?", "What would a world without suffering look like?", "Why is suffering evil/good?" or "What is good or evil?"

You can claim that a god that does not magically solve all suffering is illogical and therefore doesn't exist. I would then need to ask what logic even is. Is logic a social construct? Is logic constant? How can you depend on said logic?

 

[Otterly]

However, if there is no God, then evolution and struggle make sense, as there is no divine will guiding us. Only the way nature and enviorment exerts pressure on people will change us.

I’d actually disagree with that. Why can’t God have set the rules in place then set the ball rolling and see what happens? If I am simulating a universe and playing world sized Spore then I want to put some limits and rules in. It’s an act of creation, and creation with rules works in interesting ways. What if God is deliberately putting those rules in for reasons unbeknownst to us? Of o was making a universe that changed I’d also want life to change in response to it and evolution is a great way of doing that.

I don’t see a contradiction between omniscience and free will. If I’m simulating a universe maybe I give the things free will and see what happens, I.e i have deliberately set limits to my creation, not myself. The game analogy again. we know what happens or can happen when we play a game through but we still play it. Limits are limits within the creation rather than the creator

 

[Ibanez RG 350EX]

What is it you do, exactly, to help with the suffering of the world? The suffering of those around you?

"You don't do enough to lessen the suffering of other, therefore God exists."

I don't understand this at all.

 

[RandomTwitterGuy]

I’d actually disagree with that. Why can’t God have set the rules in place then set the ball rolling and see what happens? If I am simulating a universe and playing world sized Spore then I want to put some limits and rules in. It’s an act of creation, and creation with rules works in interesting ways. What if God is deliberately putting those rules in for reasons unbeknownst to us? Of o was making a universe that changed I’d also want life to change in response to it and evolution is a great way of doing that.

I don’t see a contradiction between omniscience and free will. If I’m simulating a universe maybe I give the things free will and see what happens, I.e i have deliberately set limits to my creation, not myself. The game analogy again. we know what happens or can happen when we play a game through but we still play it. Limits are limits within the creation rather than the creator

The issue is that God knows what the results of the limitations will be and how they affect everything. So, in this scenario, God knows people will suffer, which is part of his plan.

God is omniscient, so he does not need to allow the ball to get rolling to see what happens. He already knows the outcome.

However, God is also omnipotent. That means God would know how to set perfect limitations that would bring no suffering, make the best worshipers, and create the best scenario in every way.

Free will does not exist in this scenario because you can only take action for a given option. God Knew what you would select; God set the rules that made that selection wrong and set the environment where you would select that choice; god knew you would fail or succeed, and it was his will.

 

[xXx: State of the Union]

I don't understand this at all.

That's apparent, and that's okay. Humanity doesn't understand in general.

How about this? If I conceded that God doesn't exist, would that improve your life in anyway? Would it inspire you to do more good in the world?

The suffering could be there to lead to improvement.

However, I am only a man.

So who are you to question God?

 

[Otterly]

The issue is that God knows what the results of the limitations will be and how they affect everything. So, in this scenario, God knows people will suffer, which is part of his plan.

God is omniscient, so he does not need to allow the ball to get rolling to see what happens. He already knows the outcome.

However, God is also omnipotent. That means God would know how to set perfect limitations that would bring no suffering, make the best worshipers, and create the best scenario in every way.

Free will does not exist in this scenario because you can only take action for a given option. God Knew what you would select; God set the rules that made that selection wrong and set the environment where you would select that choice; god knew you would fail or succeed, and it was his will.

But we know all this when we play a game and we still play it. There is no challenge in an initial starting setup of perfection. I believe we do have free will, which implies that this specific creation has limits set upon it - but it doesn’t imply God has limits.
If the setup is that we are simply ‘run through scenarios’ that we don’t know the outcome of but feel like we do and God does then that works too - it implies we are created and tempered. For what purpose? I dont know.
We can’t know either way - is there any experiment that would prove or disprove we have free will, I wonder?

 

[Party Hat Wurmple]

Well if the universe is God's sandbox and the goal is to cause the least suffering possible and he is omniscient, seeing all possibilities at once, then why would he not allow some suffering? If God has a choice to give me cancer as a kid or let me live but because I make a left at a stoplight 20 years from now that derails a bus, should I not just perish as an infant if the suffering and benefit I've given to the world is nebulous and roughly equal? Maybe what's good for the gander isn't necessarily good for the goose but God has to worry about the gander.

I guess my point is, we don't grasp how the universe works and trying to understand what a 5th, 6th, or Omni dimensional being's motives are is just not something in our wheelhouse. And trying to is just futile. Better men have tried and maybe the answer is to just accept we will never have even 20% or the answers we seek.

 

[Ibanez RG 350EX]

I believe we do have free will, which implies that this specific creation has limits set upon it - but it doesn’t imply God has limits.

It absolutely implies that. If you have free will, God cannot be omniscient because he does not know what choices you will make. If he is omniscient, he does know what choices you will make and therefore you cannot possibly have free will.

This is not rocket science, Otterly. You're usually more rational than this.

 

[Otterly]

It absolutely implies that. If you have free will, God cannot be omniscient because he does not know what choices you will make. If he is omniscient, he does know what choices you will make and therefore you cannot possibly have free will.

This is not rocket science, Otterly. You're usually more rational than this.

A limit on the creation is not a limit on the creator. An omnipotent and omniscient God may well be outside of time itself - in that case what we perceive as cause and effect and choice maybe be observed or known simultaneously with no before or after as we think of it. I think CS Lewis talks about this in one of his books.
If I run a simulation I set the rules, I observe the outcomes and I can give my creations free will and at the end I know everything they did and why they did it. To my createes I’m omniscient, even though they had what they perceive to be free will. I am outside their universe and yet within it too. They cannot understand me, yet I can understand them
As for rationality - I find it takes me so far and it’s very useful for a lot of things but not everything. There is no rational explanation for consciousness.

I genuinely have no answers for this stuff, I enjoy arguing about it and hearing others opinions. This is simply what I believe because that’s what all these questions boil down to. We can’t design an experiment to prove free will exists, so it’s a faith thing. I think we have what we perceive to be free will.

 

[Ibanez RG 350EX]

in that case what we perceive as cause and effect and choice maybe be observed or known simultaneously with no before or after as we think of it

If the very notion of cause and effect is merely an illusion, then we certainly can't have free will. The very concept of a choice becomes incoherent.

I think we have what we perceive to be free will.

If we merely perceive it to be free will despite someone knowing the outcomes, it's not free will. It's just determinism we're ignorant of.

 

[Otterly]

If the very notion of cause and effect is merely an illusion, then we certainly can't have free will. The very concept of a choice becomes incoherent.

If God is outside the universe, independent of time, then he is able to see all and know all, and we are able to have free will. I don’t mean there is no cause and effect (that was badly put) I mean that is seen by God as happening differently to how we see it.
Perhaps it’s like how relativity works with all those mind bending Bob and Alice drifting through space with a clock examples.

 

[Unexpected Genitals]

Because he isn't worthy of worship. Simple as.

 

[AbyssGazer]

Here's a question for OP:

... What exactly would a world without suffering look like?

Like seriously, define it for me. Because my own mind goes to two things: First, a world where nothing exists. Second, a world where we're all mindless consumers who never have to struggle because everything we want is magically granted to us.

Both sound kinda shit in my eyes.

Humans inherently want to dream big and aspire and reach for things and have a reason to act. A world that is too perfect denies us this.

Some of us actually live in a version of the second world I imagined above and those people are clearly not happy, rightfully feeling like they're missing something or were screwed out of life. There's a reason such people will then turn to fantasy novels about a farmboy who overcomes incredible odds, or get obsessed with Dark Souls, etc. A human soul demands something to work against.

I can't speak for God obviously, but a race that never suffers.... would probably be little different from the fucking Sims.

Perhaps our suffering is caused by precisely this fundamental inability to imagine an existence without it.

It's easy to get stuck thinking about such an existence in the negatives. A world without suffering and all its synonyms. Then we end up with, as you say, a world where nothing exists.

But then again, perhaps this is the answer. So... just kys? I don't believe it's that simple. Even if you do not believe in a wandering, individual soul, it can be seen that life appears out of the same "nowhere" that it disappears into.

 

[Brightstar777]

Perhaps our suffering is caused by precisely this fundamental inability to imagine an existence without it.

It's easy to get stuck thinking about such an existence in the negatives. A world without suffering and all its synonyms. Then we end up with, as you say, a world where nothing exists.

But then again, perhaps this is the answer. So... just kys? I don't believe it's that simple. Even if you do not believe in a wandering, individual soul, it can be seen that life appears out of the same "nowhere" that it disappears into.

you are retard

 

[BallsMcLongDong]

It separates the wheat from the chaff. The best part of life is the struggle, what would be the point of a lifetime where nothing went wrong and everything always went right for you? Sounds masturbatory.

 

[Problematic User Forever]

Why doesn't mommy buy me the chocolate? She has the money.