would gay and trans be bad if they hadn't become a movement?

[skykiii]

I was having a discussion with a friend about these issues.

This friend of mine was raised mostly with a breadtuber-esque perspective. They were raised to believe the problem is just that people like conservatives or Kiwis literally just think "two men kissing? EVIL!" or "there's people who cut their dicks off? WE MUST OPPOSE THEM!"

My own view though, is that dislike of trans and gay stuff isn't actually about the trans or gay people particularly, but about the social/political movements they inspired--particularly with how those movements both went well off the rails (especially the trans movement) and wanted things that were just not reasonable, and basically forced the entire world to go along with a new paradigm without really giving people time to adjust before moving on to the next thing we have to just accept.

IE, if it were seriously just "we want people to be okay with us cutting our dicks off," nobody would have complained except for some religious fundies somewhere, it only became a problem because somehow a bunch of other shit got tacked on.

Do you think that's accurate?

 

[Vriljami]

Even if you lived in a literal Nazi/Fascist country, you could probably have anal sex with your fudgepacker bf uninterrupted by Gestapo. There really isnt a way to control what two consenting adults do in the privacy of their own homes. But for some reason they always have to rub it in people's faces, to their own detriment and ours.

 

[YWNBAM]

Perhaps if the movement wasn't so vocal, fewer people would be opposed to it. Many newer members say that, before they got acquainted with the trans movement, they were mostly in the trans-positive or neutral live-and-let-live crowd.

However, even if what you suggested wasn't the case, there's one teeny tiny problem:

"we want people to be okay with us cutting our dicks off,"

This is a mental illness, OP. Not just religious fanatics have a problem with it

For once, I would like to thank trans activists for raising awareness of the trans issue. If they weren't so loud and violent, I would still believe in female brains in male bodies, magical surgeries and HRT that can transform you into the opposite sex like some kind of wizard potion. Now I know this is a serious mental delusion usually rooted in childhood trauma, addiction and societal pressures that can lead to self-harm and turn a person into an aggressive lunatic if left unchecked.

I wish all the funding for child transition facilities would go instead towards researching alternative ways of treating gender dysphoria to replace hellraisers-style mutilation and social gaslighting.

 

[Lovely Kin]

IE, if it were seriously just "we want people to be okay with us cutting our dicks off," nobody would have complained except for some religious fundies somewhere, it only became a problem because somehow a bunch of other shit got tacked on.

There would have been a deserved backlash to troons no matter what. We are seeing the results from srs surgeries where some have died, or gotten nasty infections from them. We see some doctors trying to convince others that they are troons, resulting in these disastrous changes from hrt and srs.

Gay marriage and other fag stuff? Eh, it wouldn't have been as severe as the troon backlash. Especially when we see how unstable gay marriages can be, I have rarely seen a monogamous gay marriage besides older fags. They find it easier to cheat behind each other's backs, or "open it" so they can be whores, leading to an unstable household. The amount of hypersexuality fags have is really off putting, they don't know boundaries either, which would play a role in a backlash too. Many parents will go "OMG I ACCEPT YOU", not teaching them anything about boundaries, putting them in a hugbox situation where they feel they can act out no matter what. Or, the alternative being "I fucking hate you, get out." which makes them spitefully think "Okay, people are going to hate me no matter what, so I'm going to be the biggest degenerate out there."

But for some reason they always have to rub it in people's faces, to their own detriment and ours.

They really love self sabotaging their own movement with trannies in female sports, forcing someone to bake cakes, puberty blockers, acting like sex obsessed degenerates, forcing themselves into children shows etc. If you asked me, I would say they were speedrunning how quickly they could destroy what little good perception they had.

 

[Nicholas Gur]

They could have continued to push their degeneracy further and further as the boiling frog conserved, if they hadn't tried to draw so much attention to themselves. However I think it's in their nature to advertise as their unnatural existence makes it difficult to find participants without openly displaying their disorder.

 

[wtfNeedSignUp]

Considering how they tend to rape kids, yes.

 

[Polock]

Even if we are ignoring any arguments about the inherent moral/ethical evils of homosexuality and transgenderism, the LGBTQUIPP2S+ shit is inherently political. They were doomed to be a movement because it IS a movement. The entire point of the hecking wholesome "let us live our lives" and "Love is love!!" is to break down all taboos we have regarding sexuality and gender. This is why we find such an abnormally high proportion of sexual predators in this category.

I know its tiresome to proclaim "everything is political!!!!" but I mean, its the entire point of the whole rainbow flag bullshit.

 

[OttoWest]

Trans is based not just on a lie- that people can change their sex- but that the lie must be believed and accepted by everyone else.

 

[Solid Snek]

With the benefit of wisdom? Yeah. A tree falling in the forest still makes a sound, regardless.

However, I would never have known, and more to the point, never would have cared. I'm a libertarian at heart, and while I can be strongly opinionated and judgmental about social or cultural behavior, I stop short of wanting to force people to not be idiots. (I've always hated furries, for example, but I'd never want the state to throw people in prison for having a fursuit in the privacy of their own home)

Thus, I think at absolute worst, I'd still be using "faggot" as freely in public as "cuck", while also having "plenty of gay friends", and mouthing affirmations to the importance of tolerating faggotry and how it's really none of our business to police morality.

IN RETROSPECT, I should have known where the movement was going - I grew up in a Blue state, and had to live with a lot of proto-SJWs and militant queer activists, the kind of people who would openly screech about the need to Fag All The Things and violently assault people who said anything wrong about Muh One True Faith of Rainbow Faggotry decades before breadtube became a thing.

Spoiler: slight p/l

Example: one of my neighbours was a family of far-left college professors. The mom was a militant feminist of the 70s/80s variety, and sometime in the 90s decided she was a lesbian. Shortly after her daughter, my friend, was born, this lady broke up her otherwise functional household by divorcing her husband, quitting her job, buying a farm, and starting an artist's commune for angry vegan lesbian feminists. She was a MASSIVE bitch, and basically every story I heard growing up was something about her beating her lovers, abusing her kids, and having sanctimonious power trips fueled by whatever was trending at the moment ("animal rights" this, "ozone hole" that). But we were also expected to respect and affirm her (even and especially around the ex-family she victimized), because despite what a predatory bitch she was, she was "queer" and therefor special and good. Who cares that she raped her own daughter?! She's doing such great work for lesbian climate refugees in Costa Rica!

But I saw the militant faggots as harmless crackpots (like furries), and I guess I assumed everyone else also knew that "those people" were crazy, and never imagined that the militants would gain power, not just over the broader LGBTQIAOP+ community itself, but over the entire political, corporate, and tech structure of Western Europe and the United States.

Part of the problem was that I was a lukewarm atheist raised on Dawkins and Science Optimism, and was pretty confident that the hyper-libertarian techbro nerds who built the internet would keep pushing their values down through the generations. I never anticipated that the void left by our loss of God would get filled by SRS and estrogen pills, and that the loveable nerds of yesteryear would devolve into spiteful troon lunatics within a generation. But here we are.


So yeah, I do think it would be bad.
It would be "bad" in the sense that it's always been bad - as in, morally inferior to more nature-oriented forms of human interaction. Which I wouldn't have cared about, cuz Freedom.
It would also be "bad" in the sense of attracting and fostering some of the worst, angriest, most destructive and predatory people, but at least they'd have less reach and fewer victims.

 

[regalterry]

This friend of mine was raised mostly with a breadtuber-esque perspective. They were raised to believe the problem is just that people like conservatives or Kiwis literally just think "two men kissing? EVIL!" or "there's people who cut their dicks off? WE MUST OPPOSE THEM!"

Two faggots paying a woman to birth them a male (always a male) baby would radicalize anyone.

The simple truth is that fags and troons are inherently repulsive and degenerate. They spread diseases and create new ones, they are promiscuous and revel in flaunting their filth in front of normal people and they tirelessly prey on children.

The only sane cure has always been to round them up and slaughter them.

 

[GameratePTSD]

I actually just hate them because I think they're gross.

 

[Pagan Min]

Yes, they'd still be bad. However, becoming a "movement" has made them insufferable.

 

[Lemmingwiser]

This friend of mine was raised mostly with a breadtuber-esque perspective

It's possible te remain on the left when a person is fully informed, but most of the time it moves someone to the right.

In most cases someone on the right understands the person on the left, but disagrees, whereas someone on the left disagrees and doesn't understand the person on the right.

Note that the relationship is inverse, they disagree first and then the not understanding why comes.

My own view though, is that dislike of trans and gay stuff isn't actually about the trans or gay people particularly, but about the social/political movements they inspired

This is incorrect. It's like when people say that "feminism was good initially...."

It's a sign that someone knows nothing about how the franchise started and why and by whom.

One of the original things they wanted (but didnt get) was boy love for example.

if it were seriously just "we want people to be okay with us cutting our dicks off,

I don't even think this is accurate. From a libertarian point of view, sure, but most people aren't. We don't facilitate amputeeing legs for no reason either. We try where possible to limit giving professional help to people to harm themselves more. Professional help is typically used for harm reduction.

Why should people be okay with self mutilation?


----


Specific examples aside, let's look at the main thesis. Would they be bad if they weren't an institution. So if they weren't organized, with their own news, their own networks, their own voting blocs. These things don't make something bad (or good), it's just a political amplification of what it already is. You can easily ignore one weirdo and his sex doll, but not if it was a group that gets legislation passed.

You're speaking essentially about how hard it is to ignore the group or not, not the moral quality of what they do. Being a movement or not is morally neutral, it's what it's organized around that allows the moral quality to be defined.

 

[I'm Retarded?]

troonism is an actual mental illness and should never be enabled for any reason. it's exactly the same thing as being an otherkin, or having a My Little Pony tulpa wife, or being in a cult. it is a fantasy paraphilia that erodes your sanity and destroys your ability to live in the world and socialize with your peers. it is ruinous to the sufferer's happiness. we like to meme about the 41% number, but really think about what that means. I've lost friends to troonism because when somebody transitions, the first thing they do is vibe out their social circle and preemptively exclude anybody who's not down their esoteric internet rabbit hole. they pick up a whole lot of very weird friends very fast and construct a degenerate echo chamber for themselves which accelerates their descent into madness. I've seen it happen too many times. these people are irreversibly ruining their own lives, and their attitude of rejecting anybody who even tacitly disagrees also drives them to spread their social contagion by any means necessary. even by gaslighting people into joining them. even by grooming children. even if trannies had no political representation, troonism would still be a social malady that urgently needs to be stamped out by any humane methods necessary.

homosexuality is a different beast, but shares a lot of similarities. like trannies, homosexuals want to convert others to their tribe but they have much more limited success because it's not just a mindset thing you can be brainwashed into (note that a lot of MtF trannies remain heterosexual after transition and insist they're "lesbians"). so it's not quite as dangerous as a social contagion, although having gay and drag queen shit all over pop culture certainly has an effect. but homosexuality is also often a symptom of sex abuse or other kinds of social problems. we all know about the cycle of male homosexuality and pederasty. however, homosexuality is more difficult to excise, I think. it's not good to have it around, since at the very least it increases the incidence rate of child sex abuse, but you can't exactly cure it by just taking it out of the culture. I'm too stupid to figure that one out, I think.

 

[Grub]

My own view though, is that dislike of trans and gay stuff isn't actually about the trans or gay people particularly, but about the social/political movements they inspired-

I can't speak for anyone else but for me personally it was seeing them and interacting with them in person that did it. There wasn't really a lot of openly gay people in my school, at least not ones I knew about. I didn't really have much of an opinion on them and didn't really care that much. Over the years I've moved around a bunch and met and spent time with a bunch of different kinds of people.

All the gays and fags and trannies I met were all just fucked and even the normalish ones did things that were fucked up and in a lot of cases kind of reprehensible. They were usually fairly insufferable, self-righteous people on top of all that shit who would have no problems dishing out criticisms and judgements on anyone and everyone about anything meanwhile, they would act like children and throw temper tantrums if anyone dared to judge them or criticize them even a little bit.

This was a consistent behaviour among those people. Literally every single one I've ever met. All that shit only got worse as their movements or whatever became more publicly accepted. The movements didn't create the dislike towards them, it just publicly amplified their behaviour for all to see. The gay community in the city I lived in existed for a long time. I know boomers who have stories about the gays and trannies from back in their days that are equally as fucked up as anything you'd hear about in current year.

The problem is their behaviour and the way they live is literally counter to the entirety of biology and life itself. They are literal aberrations of nature. I don't give a fuck what kind of degenerate non-applicable animal behaviours they try to use as cope and justification. Our brains are wired to find aberrations against nature disturbing and repulsive. The more they bring public attention to themselves and push this shit on normal people the bigger the eventual pushback will be because the majority of humanity finds that shit repulsive.

 

[⋖ cørdion ⋗]

Every single "I just wanna be.." troon I've met lasted all of a few months in that mindset before becoming obnoxious.

I've known dudes for decades through games and I still can't prove they're men, technically. Women? Immediately. They'll also tell you. Troons? Literal troon symbols on their body, in their name. The more you declare yourself, the lesser you are. Millionaires don't let you know.

 

[Ed Special]

Gay marriage and other fag stuff? Eh, it wouldn't have been as severe as the troon backlash. Especially when we see how unstable gay marriages can be, I have rarely seen a monogamous gay marriage besides older fags. They find it easier to cheat behind each other's backs, or "open it" so they can be whores, leading to an unstable household. The amount of hypersexuality fags have is really off putting, they don't know boundaries either, which would play a role in a backlash too.

I think the real anti-rainbowpill for most normies is when you point out to them that gay men almost exclusively adopt boys and ask them why that is. Sure, they aren't all chomos, but it's awfully weird how they almost exclusively adopt kids of the sex they prefer to have sex with.

 

[Yamaha YM2612]

Yes. There's a reason they can't reproduce.

Homosexuality and crossdressing in inherently satanic

That's why homosexuality was such a major part of pagan cultures (the Greeks, for example) and why satanists are the ones still pushing it in the 20th century and beyond, be it hitler, Obama, Hollywood, etc

Crossdressing is a little different. That ritu is specifically constructed to mock and parody women...homosexuality too, but to a lesser degree