YABookgate

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This is kinda off-topic for the drama thread but I want to know the opinion of the people here specifically.

I publish A LOT of flash fiction, under the title of every entry is a one-sentence blurb, the genre, style, and themes present so that people can quickly scan that and decide if they want to read that specific entry or skip to the next one.

I'm thinking of making an author website where people can 'collect' these stories as little trading cards with that information on them and a cute little graphic that represents the story (AI generated with some touch ups using old reliable image editing software)

In my head I'm thinking of a really gacha-y draw system where every card has stats associated with its genre, style and themes (god knows I could use a slice of that sweet mobile gaming pie). It makes me wonder how hard it would be to learn some bare-minimum javascript to actualize the concept into a shitty little mobile game or just some straight up HTML.

Tell me kiwis, does this idea have legs or is it some autistic daydream?

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This is kinda off-topic for the drama thread but I want to know the opinion of the people here specifically.

I publish A LOT of flash fiction, under the title of every entry is a one-sentence blurb, the genre, style, and themes present so that people can quickly scan that and decide if they want to read that specific entry or skip to the next one.

I'm thinking of making an author website where people can 'collect' these stories as little trading cards with that information on them and a cute little graphic that represents the story (AI generated with some touch ups using old reliable image editing software)

In my head I'm thinking of a really gacha-y draw system where every card has stats associated with its genre, style and themes (god knows I could use a slice of that sweet mobile gaming pie). It makes me wonder how hard it would be to learn some bare-minimum javascript to actualize the concept into a shitty little mobile game or just some straight up HTML.

Tell me kiwis, does this idea have legs or is it some autistic daydream?

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Some YA authors tried a similar project, but with NFTs and blockchain involved, and the whole thing went to shit almost immediately for a variety of reasons. @Elwood P. Dowd had a writeup about it:

This kerfuffle got completely past me until I saw the write up/link at The Passive Voice Blog. I haven't logged into my SJW-friendly twitter alt account in months, maybe that's why I missed it? I know who Marie Lu and Nicola Yoon are, but these other authors aren't ringing any bells, though given how fungible YA literature is it wouldn't surprise if I've actually read one or more of them.

Inside the Realms of Ruin
Six best-selling authors’ collaborative NFT universe crumbled before it began

GettyImages-1093631138.png

Image Credits: Grandfailure / Getty Images
“The Ruin stirs, and the Five Realms rumble,” a now-archived web announcement read on Thursday morning. “You are cordially invited to join New York Times bestselling and award-winning authors Marie Lu, Tahereh Mafi, Ransom Riggs, Adam Silvera, David Yoon, and Nicola Yoon in Realms of Ruin, a collaborative fantasy epic filled with dark magic, intrigue, and unique characters — launched online in a thrilling new way.”

These celebrated young adult authors shared the announcement across social media, opening a Twitter, Instagram and Discord server for fans to discuss the buzzy new project that would propel the traditional publishing industry into the new territory of Web3, an evolution of the decentralized internet that emphasizes privacy, data ownership and compensation for work — maybe even fan-made creative works.

As the catalyst for this collaborative fantasy epic, these authors would post 12 initial origin stories about their fictional universe, to which they owned the copyright. Then fans would be tasked with writing their own stories, submitting them to the Realms of Ruin universe by minting them as NFTs on the Solana blockchain. If the authors were to enjoy a fan’s story enough, they could declare it part of the project’s official canon.

Within hours, fans confronted the authors in the Discord server with their concerns about the project. If the authors are inviting fans to write fan fiction about a universe they created, who owns the derivative works? Does minting those stories as NFTs affect the copyright of those stories? And how are these concerns exacerbated given that these authors’ target audience is too young to buy cryptocurrency on platforms like Coinbase and Gemini?

Rebecca Tushnet, the Frank Stanton Professor of First Amendment Law at Harvard Law School, aptly summed up the situation. “It’s a turducken of things people don’t understand,” she said. In other words, on top of the usual NFT concerns, the team would also be facing copyright questions and confronting the historical hesitancy from fan fiction writers over monetization of their works in a commercial environment.

Along with a team of nine developers, the six young adult authors spent two months working nights and weekends to bring Realms of Ruin to life. Within hours of its announcement, the project garnered so much backlash that they pulled the plug.

TechCrunch spoke to a source with intimate knowledge of the Realms of Ruin project who requested anonymity. They said that the authors, who also worked with a team of developers, ended the project because they felt that there was more to lose than there was to gain.

Amanda Woody 🎄
@AmandaWoody_
I wish we could pretend this doesn't exist but everyone subtweeting and asking if it's true only adds to the hype, so--yes. It's real. Multiple bestselling authors joined together to get involved with NFTs.
5:21 PM · Oct 20, 2021
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The project ultimately imploded due to a combination of factors. The targeted demographic had concerns over the environmental impacts related to minting NFTs, but they also didn’t fully understand how NFTs worked. Plus, various key elements of the project were poorly thought through in advance of the project’s announcement. And fans were worried about the legal ramifications of attempting to monetize their fan fiction.
An emerging tech dystopia

Young adult readers are often drawn to dystopian stories — like those from Realms of Ruin participants Marie Lu and Tahereh Mafi — which reflect their current anxieties about their existing reality, including climate change. Lu’s books, which are set in the future, foreshadow impending climate catastrophe, so her readers are clued into the discussions around the environmental cost of minting NFTs.

Blockchains like Ethereum and Bitcoin can be less efficient because both networks are validated using “proof of work,” an algorithm that verifies the legitimacy of a transaction by solving energy-intensive math puzzles.

So there’s cognitive dissonance to scrolling through Twitter, seeing posts about uptick in the frequency of natural disasters interspersed among news about how people are buying expensive JPGs through an energy-intensive crypto transaction that uses enough electricity to power an American home for almost a week. Yet Realms of Ruin downplayed those concerns by touting its use of the Solana blockchain.

“Realms of Ruin is built on Solana to ensure low transaction costs and minimal environmental impact,” the project’s website read, before it was taken offline. “In fact, in the time you spent reading this, your body has burnt more calories in energy than it takes to mint a story on the Solana blockchain!”

Unlike NFTs minted on Ethereum today, transaction fees for minting an NFT on Solana can be less than a cent. Austin Federa, the head of Communications at Solana Labs, a developer of the Solana blockchain, told TechCrunch that boiling an ounce of water from room temperature takes more energy than minting an NFT on Solana. This is partially because Solana relies on a “proof of stake” algorithm, which requires less energy to validate than proof of work. But it’s not clear the teenaged fans fully understood the difference between blockchains, based on a number of tweets we viewed about the project following its announcement, which compared minting NFTs to burning the Amazon rainforest.

This lack of understanding encapsulates a larger issue that crypto has to solve, which is how to make itself more comprehensible to the general public.

“NFTs have either been something that sells for $69 million at Christie’s, or they’re a very crypto-native thing,” Federa told TechCrunch. “I was really excited about Realms of Ruin because they were trying to bridge that gap a little bit.”
Lack of planning, explanations raised concerns
Another issue that arose was a misunderstanding over NFT “gas fees.”

It’s standard to pay a gas fee to mint an NFT. While higher costs of minting on the Ethereum blockchain still pose a serious barrier to entry, minting on the Solana blockchain can cost just pennies. Federa added that the entire Solana network is designed to keep fees low in the long term. But since a gas fee transaction would be involved in adding an installment to the Realms of Ruin universe, a misconception circulated among fans that they would have to pay the authors to write fan fiction, when really the fees were a part of minting on the blockchain.

As vibrant fan communities thrive online for free — often with little intervention from the author of the source material — this implication was concerning.

“I think NFTs are just a very new misunderstood market, and I feel that it’s really hard to step back and explain it,” said Megan Manzano, a literary agent working with young adult authors who voiced concerns about Realms of Ruin on Twitter. “It just felt like it could’ve been more thought out, or even if they just had a prepared facts section somewhere… I felt like there were just a lot of questions that could have been pre-answered.”

Meggnog 🎄 is Closed to Queries!
@Megan_Manzano
·
Oct 20, 2021
Replying to @Megan_Manzano
Normally, if you publish a book, it is copyrighted and you, the author, are still credited for your work/own that story.

A publisher has paid and entered into an agreement in order to gain access to your work.
Meggnog 🎄 is Closed to Queries!
@Megan_Manzano
Giving up your copyright for this community means the creators can then do whatever they want with your story and give no credit, no money, and does not need to involve you in any decision making for whatever deal may arise.
7:18 PM · Oct 20, 2021
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There was also confusion over Realms of Ruin’s plan to sell character NFTs as collectibles. The marketing of the project made it unclear how these digital goods intersected with the collaborative storytelling aspect.

TechCrunch’s source said that the character NFTs were intended to be marketed toward people already onboarded into the crypto sphere, and the profits would go toward a “community treasury,” which would be used to benefit the community by subsidizing gas fees, offering crypto incentives for the best stories or anything else the community decided. But some fans believed that they would have to collect the character NFTs in order to be able to write about those characters, and the project’s developers didn’t do a good job at communicating that this wasn’t the case on the Realms of Ruin website.
The element of a community treasury was poorly explained too, the source admits.

“In time, the community will decide when and how to use the treasury. We will be sure to work out a structure on how we can make such decisions,” one developer said on Discord.

“This community is currently effectively just this discord, are you saying if we all decided that all proceeds of the treasury would be donated to UNICEF then that’s what you’d do?” a fan asked.

“Honestly (with a bit more complexity) yes,” the developer responded. “It’s clear we don’t have all the answers you’re looking for yet, so we will work to get these for you,” the developer said.

Fans pointed out that it seemed irresponsible not to have these answers at the time of the announcement. Our source, however, pointed out that the project was set to launch on November 8, and that this announcement was supposed to be a teaser, rather than a complete rollout.
Fan fiction, ownership and NFTs
Fan fiction is a tricky, yet fertile ground for legal questions about copyright and ownership.

Sometimes, top fan fiction writers can even parlay their online success into real publishing careers. If a writer can capture the interest of tens of thousands of readers online, it’s not unreasonable to believe that, with original characters and an original story, they could do the same on The New York Times bestsellers list.

One recent example of this phenomenon is Tamsyn Muir’s “Gideon the Ninth,” published in 2019, which The New York Times called “a devastating debut that deserves every ounce of hype it’s received.” But Muir isn’t secretive that she got her start writing fan fiction. Another unabashed proponent of fan fiction is N.K. Jemisin, a MacArthur Foundation “Genius Grant” awardee who is also the only writer to win the prestigious Hugo Award for Best Novel three years in a row. From a revenue standpoint, E.L. James’ “Fifty Shades of Grey” series might be the best example of how a writer can start their career by posting derivative stories online — before the series was an international hit, it was Twilight fan fiction.

But monetizing fan fiction through online platforms is a trickier matter. For example, when Tumblr announced it would roll out Post+, a paid subscription product, the company used fan fiction writers as an example of a content creator who could profit from the product. This caused concern among writers who worried that putting a derivative work behind a paywall could land them in legal trouble.

“My main concern was that [the Realms of Ruin project’s creators] were asking their audience to come in and write a bunch of stuff, and they would then select things to be canon in their world. And the tricky part of this is that they already made this world and copyrighted it,” said Manzano. She said it wasn’t clear if the fan fiction writers would be able to do anything more with their work or if they would be acknowledged or compensated for creating it.

TechCrunch’s source close to the project feels differently.

Although the six established authors own the Realms of Ruin copyright (at least according to the archived version of the website), writers can be paid to participate in larger publishing projects where they don’t have ownership in the franchise. Over 850 “Star Trek” novels have been published, for example, but that doesn’t mean that those authors own the rights to “Star Trek.”

Harvard Law professor Rebecca Tushnet — who is a member of the legal team at the Organization for Transformative Works, which runs major fan fiction site Archive of Our Own — said that these questions would depend on what the actual contract is between Realms of Ruin and the writers.

“If they’re giving permission, there aren’t copyright infringement questions, there are ownership questions. And those would be navigated by contract. But the thing that you usually expect is that the people writing the fan works might have limited rights,” she told TechCrunch. Because the Realms of Ruin project was shut down before it officially launched, contract details weren’t available.

“The fan fiction part is probably the least interesting part about this,” added Tushnet. “It’s not unknown for authors to say, ‘I want to authorize you to play in my world, and you can even have some of the money.’ Kindle Worlds was an attempt at this, but it ultimately did not seem to be profitable, and Amazon shut it down.”

Fan creators are generally skeptical of projects like Kindle Worlds since they can seem like thinly veiled ways for corporations to profit off of these communities. This mistrust goes back years to the founding of Archive of Our Own.

In 2006, a platform called FanLib raised $3 million in venture capital to launch a platform where copyright owners (like ViacomCBS, which owns “Star Trek”) could host fan fiction contests to engage fans. But existing fan fiction writers criticized FanLib for requiring that all submitters, even ones who didn’t win the contest, forfeit the rights to their work, allowing it to be used for commercial purposes. Even though these fan fiction writers obviously didn’t own the copyright to “Star Trek,” it’s still important to these creators to own the actual words that they put on the page, as well as the ability to decide if they want ViacomCBS to commercialize their work or not.

The controversy around FanLib sparked speculative fiction author Naomi Novik — who also openly writes fan fiction — to pen a landmark blog post in 2007 under her internet pseudonym, proposing the project that would become Archive of Our Own, an ad-free, donation-supported platform run by and for fan fiction writers that states fan fiction’s case for legality up front. By 2008, FanLib was sold to Disney, which shut the site down soon after.

Today, Archive of Our Own prohibits its users from linking to sites like Patreon or Ko-Fi to solicit tips to keep writers protected from copyright complaints that could arise from monetization efforts.

“The attempt to monetize fan fiction often creates a lot of controversy,” Tushnet noted. “To the extent that they want to encourage vibrant fan communities, it turns out that one of the most successful solutions over time is to let the fan community do its thing and actually limit the interactions that you have. That seems to create the healthiest situations for fandoms, and for the authors that create the works that generate the fandom.”

TechCrunch’s source with knowledge of the project explained that the decision to build Realms of Ruin on a blockchain was because the technology would have enabled a new way for fan fiction writers to get paid for their work while still being able to retain credit for its creation, and do so in a legal manner.

On the blockchain, you could more easily track the lineage of how stories influenced one another other, allowing writers to credit one another for inspiring their work. So, if someone wrote a response to someone’s story, and the NFT representing their story was purchased for a high value, then the writer who inspired it would get a cut, too.

Another appeal of NFTs for artists is that every time an NFT is sold, the original creator still gets a cut. This is different from how sales work in the existing art world. If an artist sells a painting for $100, and the buyer later resells it for $1,000, the artist won’t see any more royalties, unless they had a contract outlining their right to a percentage of the sale.

However, Tushnet argues that the use of the blockchain alone isn’t enough to solve the pressing legal questions over derivative works.

“The people who are into NFTs think they’ve solved some new problem, but they really haven’t. All of the interesting legal questions, their relationship to the NFT is accidental at most. Real-world law will decide what the copyright questions are,” Tushnet said. “There’s just nothing new about this. Authors used to send manuscripts on boats across the ocean, and we had to figure out which country’s laws applied.”

Shelly Romero
@_smromero
Update: hearing that all of the authors involved took down their announcement posts on Instagram 🙃

And in the discord, this was posted:

Shelly Romero
@_smromero
Ummm what the hell is going on with the group of authors now doing NFTs?!? This is really terrible and disappointing.
7:52 PM · Oct 20, 2021
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The ruins

In the end, Realms of Ruin was a project that only existed outside of the Wayback Machine for a few hours. But the catastrophe of it all shows what challenges will face Web3 evangelists when they try to sway communities that are rightfully skeptical about how the spirit of their existing internet communities will be protected.

Interestingly, the values of Web3 aren’t too different from a fan fiction mecca like Archive of Our Own — both seek to move beyond the existing model of an ad-supported internet, which offers free access in exchange for the monetization of our attention.

“We’re still in incredibly early days for this technology,” said Federa. He thinks that a lot of the blowback against Realms of Ruin was factually inaccurate due to consumers’ misunderstanding of blockchain-based projects. “But every project could do a better job explaining what crypto is, and why they choose to build on it.”

TechCrunch’s source with knowledge of Realms of Ruin said that it was probably too early to bring Web3 into the publishing world. Even as crypto thought-leaders wax poetic about the promise of an ad-free internet where creators are fairly compensated for their content, many people remain skeptical of the ecosystem. It’s hard to blame them for that when crypto communities can appear so scammy, male-dominated and inaccessible from the outside.

“I think it’s way too early for this to be introduced,” said Manzano. “There would need to be a conversation about copyright, and what expectations, rights and merchandise would be linked with authors. I just worried that this would be an angle that could sort of get wishy-washy if certain rules and expectations weren’t laid out. It’s just way too new for publishing to have a certain grasp on it and how to properly integrate it into deals, merchandise and fan exposure.”

The source admitted that the developers and writers collaborating on the project hadn’t thought too far down that road yet — they hadn’t yet decided what would happen, for example, if a fan adapted their Realms of Ruin story into an original novel and sold it. The opaque nature of the Realms of Ruin rollout was perhaps a bigger kiss of death than aligning itself with crypto.

“I thought of myself as a teenager — if I saw some of my favorite authors creating something that I can be a part of, I would have jumped all over that,” said Manzano. “It just seemed like there were other ways to include fans and rally excitement that felt less sketchy.”



Amanda Silberling@asilbwrites / 9:58 AM EDT•October 26, 2021
Honestly, this strikes me as kind of a cool idea, at least in theory. As the article notes, "work for hire" arrangements have covered everything from Star Trek to Star Wars to The Babysitters' Club to Mack Bolan. Still not quite sure how they expected to make money, so there is that.
I personally like your pitch because I'm a dork for trading cards and I think it's a neat idea to collect little stories like that, but if you wanted to pursue it you'd probably want to distance yourself from this Realms of Ruin thing as much as possible.

There are also some questions that I'm curious about and that others would probably ask. Would you be the only author on this site, or would others contribute? Are people going to pay for these stories? How much? Can they trade or sell the cards, and do the stories go with them? If so, would the author get a cut of secondary sales?
 
Would you be the only author on this site, or would others contribute?
I guess so, it would mostly just be a novelty to play around with.

Back in college I made a hearthstone/yugioh hybrid using this web-based engine called Dulst so I imagine it would be kinda like that, you play a short game against a bot, collect "coins" or whatever reward, trade those in for booster packs and you build a deck of stories. Maybe merge multiple copies of a story you like in particular to raise its stats so you can use it more and recycle other doubles back for coins.

I know the system of grind for coins to trade for packs and then convert excess cards to coins works because that's how I created the progression system for YugiStone

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The big issue with Amazon is as they get an increasingly large chunk of the market, they have less and less reason to be nice to the self published and indie authors who depend on them.

"Oh, you don't like us cutting royalties in half? Suck it up, what are you gonna do, go back to the bookstores and publishers we drove out of buisiness?"

It's why I hope we see places like Baen.com take off more... Amazon is the Walmart of publishing, we need the Target and others.

Yeah, that's not going to happen with Baen. Been is just another publisher that rejects more than 90% of submissions they receive. They are not a self-publishing outlet like KDP is. You can't just publish your book there, so it's not really competing with Amazon. Smashwords has a better chance of being the Target to Amazon's Wal Mart than Baen does.

I mean for crying out loud, Larry went on a rant against horror months ago and horror authors are banned from being published by Baen. They only publish fantasy & sci-fi which follows certain rules, and definitely no YA stuff - despite YA selling better these past few years than adult fantasy.
 

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I have a writer-friend who is not white but is fairly new to the scene and is yet to start submitting their books to publishers. I've been warning them about over-reliance on using identity as a tactical entry man-ram through the publishing gate. Yes, being (Mon Calamari) when there's not a lot of Mon Cala authors out there might get you a foot in the door with these publishers, but if there's no fucking substance to your story, the novelty wears off really quick. To put it simply: It's A Trap!
Yes, this is something to be wary of. It can work for you, but you will end up a novelty unless you're a 1% great writer. But then you'd get published anyway. You end up a novelty, possibly even if you're an okay writer. You won't write fantasy, the publisher will want you to write '[whatever identity descriptor you said you were] fantasy.'
 
squeecore comfy fiction movement
I really wish I didn't know what this was. Is this basically just for arrested development retards who never graduate to reading things beyond YAslop? Like basically for the underage twitter retard audience?
 
I really wish I didn't know what this was. Is this basically just for arrested development retards who never graduate to reading things beyond YAslop? Like basically for the underage twitter retard audience?
I think its YA written by and for 40 year old white women.
 
with the concept that the fucking squeecore comfy fiction movement
Nowadays whenever I see someone referencing anything with a "-punk" or "-core" suffix written after about, oh, 1995 or so I know I'm going to want to nailgun their hands to a table by the time I'm finished reading whatever it is they have to say. In minecraft. Mostly. I'm sure there's exceptions out there,but they seem to be rarer and rarer as time marches on.
Smashwords has a better chance of being the Target to Amazon's Wal Mart than Baen does.
Wal-Mart has (or maybe had) a deal with Kobo. It is (or was) about the most confusing mess of a website imaginable. Almost like they want to compete with Amazon in this domain, but in the most self-defeating, passive aggressive way possible. Wal-Mart doesn't even seem to sell Kobo readers at this point, which is kind of why I'm wondering where the deal is.

I'm guessing there's just not enough money in it for Wal-Mart to take books seriously enough to even put a semi-competent programmer to work developing a coherent, easy to use interface. Assuming it is still even active.

You'd think Amazon would be ripe for a competitor in the area of ebooks and audiobooks, but apparently not. Apple is probably still smarting from the anti-trust case they lost all those years ago, Google Books is a mess, Scribd seems like a joke, and I'm assuming Barnes & Noble is barely hanging on my a thread.
 
notice how she never asks for books to be like another book? Its always anime and video games.
Reading through the list reminded me of J.K. Rowling and when she announced Dumbledore as gay. I can imagine this has been happening for years were publishers and agents become more focused on social justice and less on literacy. Anyone who doesn't agree is blacklisted. Look at Rowling for example. She was praised as one of the greatest writers until she came out against trans people. Now she's Hitler with ovaries.
 
So much of this shit is so retardedly specific I think they just want someone to write their book for them.
Or at the very least, they're using their position just to have someone write their particular dream book and deliver it to their inbox, and acting like they're doing the writer a favor.
 
Hilariously contradicting themselves with "no tabletop gaming novelizations" then "dark academia but replace it with tabletop gaming"

This honestly sounds like some new admin assistant who has come on board and hoping to catch a sellable manuscript before their boss who runs the agency gets a hold of it. The older, more established agents very rarely go into massive detail, they'll just say, "All genres, no children's or middle grade" and leave it at that. They won't be TOO fierce on their do-not-want list, because a massive hit like FOURTH WING could technically be seen as Military SF if it were being pitched by a debut author, and one wouldn't want to lose that opportunity.

Doubly depressingly, the stuff she mentions here is the stuff that is currently being bought by publishers whose entire marketing plan is based off appealing to the virtue-signalling teens on Booktok or Bookstagram.

For the Kiwis who asked about "squeecore", the words "stabby and cinnamon roll parings" are huge fucking tells. There's this overly cutesy juvenilia in some books written for an adult market toiday, John Scalzi's Kaiju Preservation Society was one of them that still gets quoted regularly for being cutesy garbage.
 
So much of this shit is so retardedly specific I think they just want someone to write their book for them.
Okay, I'm going to play devil's advocate a bit. Because, I don't consider this agent's list to be so unusual. I remember when I was pitching my book to agents, almost all of them had similarly long do's and don't lists - even if the specific items on the list were different. These agents were not saying that they want a book with ALL of these traits, one explained to me that she just needed two or three items to be present to consider responding. The reason the list of things they want is so long is because they are trying to list every trope they like just in case one of these tropes is included in your book. It's probably the same here. But I agree with the above poster who said usually publishers don't have such large "Do not want" lists.

Tldr, this woman's very picky list is not much pickier than the average indie house that I've tried submitting to. Random example:
 

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