Philosophy Tube / Oliver Lennard / Oliver "Olly" Thorn / Abigail Thorn - Breadtube's Patrick Bateman.

[Rose_of_Troon]

Gender expression is a choice. Being female (or male) isn't. No amount of makeup, hormones, surgery, clothes, delusional thinking or performative femininity will change that. Fixating on desperately trying to be the one thing in this world that you can't, down to the nucleic acid in every molecule of your body, is mental illness and consumerist entitlement in its purest form.

Ok so what makes a woman a woman? Her gender expression or her uterus?

 

[Der weiße Teufel]

they reduce women to their uteruses as well.

That's such a typical troon argument. When you agree that having a uterus is a uniquely and typical female characteristic and said uterus is playing a part in why women might be/used to be/are oppressed, you are not reducing them to their uterus. It's just a basic, biological fact.

 

[Ninon42]

Ok so what makes a woman a woman? Her gender expression or her uterus?

Neither. It's being an adult human female, which a male can never be. What makes a man? Why is the debate always what is a woman? Troons claim that to debate their existence is literal violence, and yet so many see no parallel to debating and redefining woman. Men in dresses aren't "expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman", they're just men in dresses seething over what they can't have. Olly was born male and will die male and damn well knows it. It's just a performance.

 

[AssignedEva]

View attachment 2631843View attachment 2631842
He's so annoying. Just go to your silly little protest, no one actually thinks you're the "trans princess of terf island". Literally no one cares if you're just showing up to a protest and not acting like an exceptional individual while you're there.View attachment 2631841

Also what's a "spicy" charity? Is he secretly donating to men's rights groups or what?

He's almost certainly responding to us roasting his outfit and speech at trans pride and talking about the other speakers. We're only doing that in your thread, Ollie.

Although "pulling focus" and "not being out for long enough" were largely criticisms from the trans community, because of his dumb faux-Braveheart speech when there were more interesting and more famous trans people there.
Spicy charities are usually the result of charities not being perfect - some breadtubers get criticised for donating to that charity instead of this charity. Although claiming he's doing anonymous donations is great cover for not making donations.

r/PhilosophyTube - Is Oliver Thorn the single most interesting person on the internet, or are his stories/anecdotes about "himself" just fiction, inserted to enhance the viewing experience?

102 votes and 26 comments so far on Reddit

www.reddit.com

Hahaha he's in the comments - "These are all true lol; I guess I have lived a fairly interesting life. Imagine all the stuff I don't talk about on the show!"

Gender expression is a choice. Being female (or male) isn't. No amount of makeup, hormones, surgery, clothes, delusional thinking or performative femininity will change that. Fixating on desperately trying to be the one thing in this world that you can't, down to the nucleic acid in every molecule of your body, is mental illness and consumerist entitlement in its purest form.

Gender expression is a choice, but effeminate men and butch women do experience oppression as a result of their gender expression if they don't go out of their way to conform to roles. Less than they used to, but they still do.

 

[Medicinal Molduga]

Gender expression is a choice, but effeminate men and butch women do experience oppression as a result of their gender expression if they don't go out of their way to conform to roles. Less than they used to, but they still do.

Okay I'm going to get rated autistic but this is an attempt to explain a fallacy that most pseudo-leftists online make when confusing 'oppression' with 'discrimination'. I don't expect anyone to agree, but this is just to clarify the analysis of these terms from an actual left-wing (i.e. materialist) perspective.

Oppression implies there is a structural system in place that puts the oppressed class in a specific category so they can be systematically exploited or taken advantage of in some way for the benefit of another class. It usually means that your 'social set' will be to some extent decided before you are born, and the social conditioning you will receive will be a result of these factors being interpreted by society in some way. This is why oppression as a concept applies to sex, race and economic class (all are determining conditions with social implications that are known since before birth).

Gender presentation (which is just sex roles and non-conformity with sex roles) is not a social determinant known before birth. Neither is sexual orientation. A young boy that will much later turn out to be gay does not come with the predefined 'gay' label when he is born. He will be raised and treated according to his sex, race and economic status. He will probably receive the message that being effeminate is bad, or nor as good as not being effeminate, but that is merely a byproduct of sex socialization.

Men who don't conform to social sex roles suffer discrimination on the basis of not fitting in, but aren't systemically oppressed because of them. That's why you get Brazilian TIMs killed for being in prostitution (systemically oppressed arguably due to their economic class and often race), and also rich Swiss men celebrated for wearing an ugly dress to their senior manager bank job (definitely not oppressed, might get discriminated when in business meetings). The Brazilian prostitute will still suffer violence and potential death if he prostitutes himself as a man, but the Swiss senior manager only needs to take off his dress and he will be treated just fine wherever he goes.

Sex, race and economic class are not something you can just take off to fit in. Troonery and gender non-conforming presentation is. They are not at the same level.

TLDR; No, according to actual leftist logic (informed by Marxism / materialism) troons are not oppressed for being troons. They might suffer discrimination and violence for going outside the norm, but there is no structural system in place designed to extract a benefit from their oppression.

 

[Rose_of_Troon]

Neither. It's being an adult human female, which a male can never be. What makes a man? Why is the debate always what is a woman? Troons claim that to debate their existence is literal violence, and yet so many see no parallel to debating and redefining woman. Men in dresses aren't "expanding the bandwidth of what it means to be a woman", they're just men in dresses seething over what they can't have. Olly was born male and will die male and damn well knows it. It's just a performance.

I don’t think any troon seriosly debates basic biology, which is why hormones and surgery are an option to fill in what’s not genetically there. I think it’s about 1) society respecting and acknowledging the desire of transpeople to seek out access to medical treatment through their health insurance and without going to the braindoctor first, 2) being represented in education and media, 3) not having to be afraid of violence anywhere whilst out in public and 4) entering women’s spaces and going by she/her without people constantly questioning their identity. It’s NOT about giving troons a free pass to behave as sexual predators in those places. But that’s how it’s constantly framed by TERFs. Do trans-predators exist though? Absolutely! Nobody is denying that (or should deny that). Are ALL transwomen sexual predators? Of course not. So I guess it should go without saying that framing all transwomen as predatory is unfair to say the least and should be publicly denounced. Now, why don’t we focus more on what makes a man? Perhaps we should with regard to other topics, for example regarding transmen. Yet if we discuss discrimination of transWOMEN it’s really pointless, because they don’t define themselves as men and their desire is to be recognized as WOMEN so i guess a redefinition of womanhood is just necessary to do female troons justice and the train has already left the station! That might be triggering for some ciswomen, but I do think that obsessively hating on female troons or condemning troondom itself is an unmeasured response to that trigger. There is really no harm in this for ciswomen. Stripping troons of their womanhood will not stop sexual abuse of women. Allowing troons to transition more easily and be accepted in society for who they are will not post a threat on womens safety. Using transwomen as a scapegoat for men and their problematic behaviour is counterproductive to the debate since it shifts the focus away from that. A predatory transwoman will find a way to pray on other women whether you acknowledge her womanhood or not. So yes transwomen are women. The good thing about triggers is, the less you’ll fight them the less unbearable they become in the long run, until they are finally not there anymore. Be triggered by predatory behaviour. Not by troons being troons and still being recognized as women.

 

[Ninon42]

I don’t think any troon seriosly debates basic biology, which is why hormones and surgery are an option to fill in what’s not genetically there. I think it’s about 1) society respecting and acknowledging the desire of transpeople to seek out access to medical treatment through their health insurance and without going to the braindoctor first, 2) being represented in education and media, 3) not having to be afraid of violence anywhere whilst out in public and 4) entering women’s spaces and going by she/her without people constantly questioning their identity. It’s NOT about giving troons a free pass to behave as sexual predators in those places. But that’s how it’s constantly framed by TERFs. Do trans-predators exist though? Absolutely! Nobody is denying that (or should deny that). Are ALL transwomen sexual predators? Of course not. So I guess it should go without saying that framing all transwomen as predatory is unfair to say the least and should be publicly denounced. Now, why don’t we focus more on what makes a man? Perhaps we should with regard to other topics, for example regarding transmen. Yet if we discuss discrimination of transWOMEN it’s really pointless, because they don’t define themselves as men and their desire is to be recognized as WOMEN so i guess a redefinition of womanhood is just necessary to do female troons justice and the train has already left the station! That might be triggering for some ciswomen, but I do think that obsessively hating on female troons or condemning troondom itself is an unmeasured response to that trigger. There is really no harm in this for ciswomen. Stripping troons of their womanhood will not stop sexual abuse of women. Allowing troons to transition more easily and be accepted in society for who they are will not post a threat on womens safety. Using transwomen as a scapegoat for men and their problematic behaviour is counterproductive to the debate since it shifts the focus away from that. A predatory transwoman will find a way to pray on other women whether you acknowledge her womanhood or not. So yes transwomen are women. The good thing about triggers is, the less you’ll fight them the less unbearable they become in the long run, until they are finally not there anymore. Be triggered by predatory behaviour. Not by troons being troons and still being recognized as women.

No. Men aren't women and never will be. It's not a matter of hate, just simple fact. Any argument based on a premise that transwomen are not men is false, like debating the finer points of scientology or phrenology. Stop shitting up the thread by derailing. Olly is a man, Hontra is a man, Blaire is a man, Rose of Dawn is a man and that will never change.

 

[Cr1ms0n_&_C10v3r]

Do TERFs have the better arguments? Absolutely NOT, since much like patriarchy, they reduce women to their uteruses as well. Isn’t that a big ‚no no‘ in feminism? Frankly I’m stunned, that the TERF-movement hasn’t been shunned more by other feminists for that so far.

Philosophy Tube tier "argument". Women as people aren't defined by their uterus, but women as women are defined by their female sex, which includes having a uterus barring rare birth defects or a hysterectomy.

Since the exact same thing applies to men, they are defined as men by their male sex, I'm not sure how this is "patriarchal" thinking. "Men have dicks" /=/ men are walking dicks. Though I never see that pointed out. Maybe it's because it's projection by the deeply misogynistic troon movement who truly do see women as walking reproductive systems? And the male equivalent never even crosses their minds.

 

[Icterus]

Now, why don’t we focus more on what makes a man?

 

[AssignedEva]

I don’t think any troon seriosly debates basic biology, which is why hormones and surgery are an option to fill in what’s not genetically there. I think it’s about 1) society respecting and acknowledging the desire of transpeople to seek out access to medical treatment through their health insurance and without going to the braindoctor first, 2) being represented in education and media, 3) not having to be afraid of violence anywhere whilst out in public and 4) entering women’s spaces and going by she/her without people constantly questioning their identity. It’s NOT about giving troons a free pass to behave as sexual predators in those places. But that’s how it’s constantly framed by TERFs. Do trans-predators exist though? Absolutely! Nobody is denying that (or should deny that). Are ALL transwomen sexual predators? Of course not. So I guess it should go without saying that framing all transwomen as predatory is unfair to say the least and should be publicly denounced. Now, why don’t we focus more on what makes a man? Perhaps we should with regard to other topics, for example regarding transmen. Yet if we discuss discrimination of transWOMEN it’s really pointless, because they don’t define themselves as men and their desire is to be recognized as WOMEN so i guess a redefinition of womanhood is just necessary to do female troons justice and the train has already left the station! That might be triggering for some ciswomen, but I do think that obsessively hating on female troons or condemning troondom itself is an unmeasured response to that trigger. There is really no harm in this for ciswomen. Stripping troons of their womanhood will not stop sexual abuse of women. Allowing troons to transition more easily and be accepted in society for who they are will not post a threat on womens safety. Using transwomen as a scapegoat for men and their problematic behaviour is counterproductive to the debate since it shifts the focus away from that. A predatory transwoman will find a way to pray on other women whether you acknowledge her womanhood or not. So yes transwomen are women. The good thing about triggers is, the less you’ll fight them the less unbearable they become in the long run, until they are finally not there anymore. Be triggered by predatory behaviour. Not by troons being troons and still being recognized as women.

The train has left the station from a legislative perspective, but it might pull into a turning circle. As is, "trans women are women" is an aphorism but it's clear that most people do not think of them as the same as women.

Regardless, arguing about the validity of transdom on the PhilosophyTube thread is a bit out of place - discussing it, sure, but actually telling people "no you're wrong, trans women are women" isn't very productive. The main issue people have with Ollie is that he's very obviously not a True and Honest trans (regardless of whether or not you think there can be a True and Honest trans) which is something that's verboten to acknowledge in polite society.

 

[Itterasshai]

I propose that there are four quadrants of trans folks, similar to the ratings on that political scale:

Do TERFs have the better arguments?

You both could make use of the General transgender discussion thread in the Deep Thoughts section.

 

[PennyAni]

^ he was trying to illustrate similarities between the previous scapegoating of communists and the current scapegoating of muslims.

.... i think ....

Yeah this was absolutely the intent. And to get to play "acting" and cross-dressing and all that of course. I love how the opening with credits is a 100% shot-by-shot rip-off of the opening to Contra's "Gender Critical" video. (I have a feeling she reads this thread, btw, and if so: worry ye not, we all see it too, Nat.)

even though he mentioned it for like a minute, and it was a very poorly thought out choice for thematic visuals for the entire fucking video.

like really - if we were grading the creativity as a project/assignment, the instructor would point out the weak and un-fleshed out presentation's visual theme, and unclear reasoning behind the russian shtick, and probably give this shoddy slapped together piece a low B or C at maximum.

like really, i would love to hear a legitimate classroom-style critique of this piece instead of the frothing simping (of the comments section). because the presentation choices are really bizarre and poorly executed and just barely coherent in relation to the subject

For real. I mean, clearly all of us here have pre-existing issues with PT but honestly- objectively speaking- this is the worst video ot his that I've ever seen and after the last few I'm simply not going to force myself to even hate watch this tripe anymore.

I did check out the PT and Breadtube subreddits and- hilariously- even a majority of his simps seem to not like this one and the scattershot diet-Contrapoints stylistic choices are becoming impossible to even pretend to like. Usually the pinned threads devoted to each video are hundreds of posts long; this one has like 30-something posts going into a week of being online.

It's nice to feel like other people get you, but I'm almost getting bored with the catty, being bored aspect of hating PT. And I historically LOVE a bit of catty drama even for it's own sake. But yeah, it's THAT shitty.

 

[AssignedEva]

Yeah this was absolutely the intent. And to get to play "acting" and cross-dressing and all that of course. I love how the opening with credits is a 100% shot-by-shot rip-off of the opening to Contra's "Gender Critical" video. (I have a feeling she reads this thread, btw, and if so: worry ye not, we all see it too, Nat.)



For real. I mean, clearly all of us here have pre-existing issues with PT but honestly- objectively speaking- this is the worst video ot his that I've ever seen and after the last few I'm simply not going to force myself to even hate watch this tripe anymore.

I did check out the PT and Breadtube subreddits and- hilariously- even a majority of his simps seem to not like this one and the scattershot diet-Contrapoints stylistic choices are becoming impossible to even pretend to like. Usually the pinned threads devoted to each video are hundreds of posts long; this one has like 30-something posts going into a week of being online.

It's nice to feel like other people get you, but I'm almost getting bored with the catty, being bored aspect of hating PT. And I historically LOVE a bit of catty drama even for it's own sake. But yeah, it's THAT shitty.

I fully agree. I wanted to take some poorly timed screenshots to be mean but I couldn't even make it through the "privet, tovarisch" section. It was just so boring and mediocre - not even entertainingly bad.

Edit:
I made some mean crops of the weirder facial expressions but my heart wasn't in it

 

[Futaba]

I don’t think any troon seriosly debates basic biology,

Spoiler: For the eyes of Rose of Troon

They do tho lol (I think Esmeggs shared this earlier in the thread)

They claim that they have periods and that when they are sexually aroused they get "wet" (even thought they still have their peen). They claim that they are mothers and that breastfeeding from moobs is natural. 0nly 10% make any changes to their sexed body and 5% get the chop.

You say that TERFs reduce womanhood to just having a uterus but then you are also implying that putting on a dress makes you a woman?

Its funny cause in one of your previous comments you are so close to getting it with the sex based oppression train of thought lol

I had Ollys post mortem stream on in background for a bit and I agree with what others have said its just grueling at the end of the day. He was saying in the stream that he wasnt critiquing Islam the religion - you fuckin wot m8. He never made that clear in the video and I dunno 95% of Islamophobia is because of the religion. When I heard this I was just mentally done. How can you be such a brass necked charlatan.

In regards to the spicy charities hes probably talking to Mermaids and maybe even stonewall now. Mermaids is pro transing of kids a la Jazz Jennings style.

 

[AfghanBlue]

I don’t think any troon seriosly debates basic biology, which is why hormones and surgery are an option to fill in what’s not genetically there. I think it’s about 1) society respecting and acknowledging the desire of transpeople to seek out access to medical treatment through their health insurance and without going to the braindoctor first, 2) being represented in education and media, 3) not having to be afraid of violence anywhere whilst out in public and 4) entering women’s spaces and going by she/her without people constantly questioning their identity. It’s NOT about giving troons a free pass to behave as sexual predators in those places. But that’s how it’s constantly framed by TERFs. Do trans-predators exist though? Absolutely! Nobody is denying that (or should deny that). Are ALL transwomen sexual predators? Of course not. So I guess it should go without saying that framing all transwomen as predatory is unfair to say the least and should be publicly denounced. Now, why don’t we focus more on what makes a man? Perhaps we should with regard to other topics, for example regarding transmen. Yet if we discuss discrimination of transWOMEN it’s really pointless, because they don’t define themselves as men and their desire is to be recognized as WOMEN so i guess a redefinition of womanhood is just necessary to do female troons justice and the train has already left the station! That might be triggering for some ciswomen, but I do think that obsessively hating on female troons or condemning troondom itself is an unmeasured response to that trigger. There is really no harm in this for ciswomen. Stripping troons of their womanhood will not stop sexual abuse of women. Allowing troons to transition more easily and be accepted in society for who they are will not post a threat on womens safety. Using transwomen as a scapegoat for men and their problematic behaviour is counterproductive to the debate since it shifts the focus away from that. A predatory transwoman will find a way to pray on other women whether you acknowledge her womanhood or not. So yes transwomen are women. The good thing about triggers is, the less you’ll fight them the less unbearable they become in the long run, until they are finally not there anymore. Be triggered by predatory behaviour. Not by troons being troons and still being recognized as women.

Spoiler: scootchin' up as this is already off-topic

''I don’t think any troon seriosly debates basic biology''
So you'd hope, but dumbassess like Tube are actually starting too.
He was tweeting about
"I am a female and have a female body and have female hormones in my body bla bla molecular level" bullshit.

This is pretty next-stage odd, and saddly he's a famous troon whose idiot thoughts other soft headed ones will copy.


"seek out access to medical treatment through their health insurance and without going to the brain doctor first"
They should though.

This is the problem with affirmation only- there are loads of people who are very VERY easily led and who are definitely not trans (see, de-transitioners) and the massive bump in trans discourse (funded by charities funded by pharma co's doing very well).

There will be a lot of people who want to go down their route anyway, but acting like its harsh to expect someone to be on the right track before they go down the route of expensive, mostly irreversible, dangerous surgeries unchecked without any other option presented is stupid.

Especially when these people are children with muchie mothers.

Especially when the 'discourse' involves shouting down the medical fact that:

-we dont know how bodies will react long term to a life time of reverse hormones

(its how someone like Buck Angel ended up nearly dying from his atrophy)

-the fact that these drugs have been proved dangerous for a lot of other body parts, like bone density, brain function, etc

-the fact that they then make SRS surgery impossible due to lack of tissue development, sterilise people, and leave them with no actual normal sexual development of sensation, ability to orgasm.

Then there's all the problems that come with the actual installation of neo-vag/dick, incontinence, lifelong work to upkeep, pain, necrosis

OF COURSE some people will want this anyway and its a balance to find what it is that matters most.

Im of the mind that it actually shouldn't matter and we should be less focused on biology for gender expression and hopefully people wouldnt require these harmful operations in order to feel at home in themselves, but that will take a lot of socialisation.

The fact of being obsessed about what is in other peoples pants as compared to yours, is probably something to do with the pornification of young minds in general.

I do not agree with the majority of people on here that no one should troon out, that most transwomen are predators- I think the problem is the mad, affirmative only, Tube rant -"being trans is a gift" and song and dance making his coming out some massive Event, drawing other people in.

Trans people, like Paris Lee, as we saw in that telling interview, know that being trans isnt something you want to propagate.
the propagation and social contagion of it, cheered on by people it benefits, like Tube, is my real problem with it- because it just ends up a lot of trouble for those swept along.

 

[scathefire]

(s/a)

Breast augmentation, facial feminization, or the snip? Idc but expect lots of fist shaking at the outrageous difficulty of getting elective surgeries served on a silver platter by the NHS.

He's not even on hormones, correct? If so then I doubt he'd take more permanent steps in transitioning,

 

[fax machine]

He's not even on hormones, correct? If so then I doubt he'd take more permanent steps in transitioning,

He is on hormones. /tttt/ noticed the physical signs months before he came out, and he’s since mentioned binding his breasts and wearing loose shirts to hide them while in boymode. He just does the “did I ever say I was on hormones?” bit on livestreams to support the principle that trans women are women regardless of medical status.

Vanity is a cornerstone of his character, though, so of course he’s doing everything in his power to resemble a conventionally feminine, beautiful woman. Same phony energy as his moralizing about Fatphobia Bad after cheerfully detailing his calorie restriction regime through months of livestreams during his transition.

 

[Rekkington]

View attachment 2634657
(s/a)

Breast augmentation, facial feminization, or the snip? Idc but expect lots of fist shaking at the outrageous difficulty of getting elective surgeries served on a silver platter by the NHS.

View attachment 2634709
(s/a)

fuck political alliances. all my homies hate political alliances. all my homies are bourgeois art kids spamming soviet vibes online. imagine reaching out to the majority and forming coalitions with imperfect people to do democracy with them lol sounds lame. I am a very serious political actor and also a philosopher who says no debate

View attachment 2634733
(s/a)

Well golly Olly if outreach and debate with normal people is over then I guess you can just shut the fuck up about it forever since literally all your content is trying to educate people on trans nonsense. In fact absent the pushback on all this you really wouldn't have a purpose to make these videos at all since presumably you'd just be underexplaining to the choir.

 

[PennyAni]

i woulndt say its British aging so much as it is skinnyfat aging. everyone i know who carries a bit of weight has aged fucking horribly compared to the rest of us, started as early as mid 20s looking crap.

Off-topic, but holy shit that's depressing if true.

 

[AfghanBlue]

Off-topic, but holy shit that's depressing if true.

Spoiler: fat shit

yup. sister is younger by 4 years, and all her friends are fat as fuck and look about forty.
whereas mine, who coincidentally aren’t knuckleheads, are slim and look the same as they did about 8 years ago.
people’s faces change a little and stuff, and tiredness and such will draw you a little bit, but my god the fatties look like 40-50 year old single mothers and they are only 26.
fat skin, when combined with smoking just looks terrible, greyish, and starts to hang. a younger fatter person looks right as their collagen fills it out- actually the very few people who are like life long fatties- i know one girl whose always been a big fat girl but she’s one of the most beautiful people i know, her body and face is built to be fat and can handle the extra weight.
it’s the ones who used to be thin and are fat because they eat too much food, of shit quality. if they ate the same but less they’d probably look shit still, as food is crap quality anyway, and the lack of exercise..
-another few things that make you look terrible-
wearing shitty glasses/ i mean those nasty little thin rectangle ones, they don’t quite anyone’s face.

if you’re a man, and properly balding, shave it.

don’t just wear miserable depressing clothes just because you’re over 25.
similarly don’t wear the same style of clothes just because you’ve always worn them, it’s not 2005 any more and clothes were shit then to add to it.
.

Hmm, wonder to what extent big rolly Tube is starving himself, given as he is a good bit less fat than he was.

Weird cos you'd think oestrogen would make you appear a bit fatter? He must be on quite a regimen with that taken into account too.. then again, when he's not in full control of what he looks like on camera, (TUBE POWAH speech, BBC Lols) he still looks pretty huge.

So... if he is already on hormones and is already scheduled for whatever it is, what is he complaining about waiting lists for? Exactly how fucking quick does he need things to be?
i’ve been waiting on results and appointments for an actually pressing, dangerous problem for months now, trying to get cardio stuff sorted and its been going on for over a year.

Anecdotally people seem to move through treatment pretty fast for troon shit...I wonder if the waiting list thing we keep hearing bleating about is actually being thrown at the less convincing specimens that come in...the visibly neurotic faddy kids, or those with weird, obviously coaxing parents.. as a bit of a speed bump to lessen the chance of mass NHS suing before the decade's out.