Tabletop Community Watch

[Ghostse]

What phrase?

DUES VAULT!
Yes, I know

 

[HTTP Error 404]

Mine literally said.

“Guys I’m cool with you playing as the Knights Templar and genociding the greenskins but……. no racism, no screaming that phrase during business hours and don’t go into vivid detail about killing Orc babies for fuck’s sake.”

The guy has been in the hobby since the early days, he’s seen it all and has a firm rule set.

No bullshit
Keep it on the table
Don’t ask don’t tell
Be normal

What phrase? Deus Vult?

 

[Newman's Lovechild]

Shit, I read that as black templars and thought he meant no shouting "death to the xenos!"
Which would be autistic enough to frighten off the normies.

What is it, like, historical crusaders vs warhammer orcs? Huh.

2. The setting started as satire

Even then the satire was hamstrung by being a huge ripoff of Dune, Nemesis the Warlock, and Moorcock-in-Space.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

So Kriegers or Armageddon, got it.

1. I’ve never seen anyone mad that there are female guardsmen (guardswomen?). The only real gender fight is with the Astartes, and that’s because the lore explicitly states that women cannot become Space Marines since gene-seed just doesn’t take when you deviate too far from the Primarch.

Well, it's a fictional setting, so the SJWs would probably say that Cawl should come up with some bullshit hocus-pocus tech to make female clones of the Primarchs (a la Omega from Bad Batch) and use that as the basis for female Space Marines, recruited from the ranks of the Adepta Sororitas.

2. The setting started as satire, but it has become more and more serious to the point that the politics have become all-but divorced from the real world. The Imperium has also become more justified as the years have passed, so any mockery it was supposed to convey has been lost due to the later writers moving away from the satirical aspects in favor of Space Marines purging the enemies of Man.

Unlike Star Wars which constantly reminded the viewers that the Galactic Empire is evil (down to the point where playing as the Empire in various Star Wars games is basically them just letting the player enjoy playing the mustache-twirling bad guy who commits war crimes) the 40K writers fell in love with the Imperium. Unlike TCW which showed how grotesque and frightening a horde of space soldiers with unflinching obedience is, (down to the point where "GOOD SOLDIERS FOLLOW ORDERS" became a meme) 40K authors glorified the unflinching obedience the Imperium's Space Marines and Guardsmen show the regime, lionizing it as valor and necessary sacrifice, instead of the macabre, masochistic love that brainless, deluded morons have for a government that glorifies them in the morning, and tosses them into the jaws of hell at night, just so the upper crust can keep existing and mooching off the populace.

Rick Priestley, speaking in a December 2015 interview with Unplugged Games, highlighted how GW's newer crop of 40K authors missed the point of the Imperium entirely:

"To me the background to 40K was always intended to be ironic. The fact that the Space Marines were lauded as heroes within Games Workshop always amused me, because they're brutal, but they're also completely self-deceiving. The whole idea of the Emperor is that you don't know whether he's alive or dead. The whole Imperium might be running on superstition. There's no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft. It's got some parallels with religious beliefs and principles, and I think a lot of that got missed and overwritten."

Basically, imagine if you sold a story to a company to make some money, and in that story, you created a faction that lampoons the worst of the KKK, the Nazi Party, and the Spanish Inquisition, all in one, and you write in that, despite them having a justified war against Chaos and aliens, their moronic, puritanical, and superstitious way of thinking ends with them in an eternal stalemate while the lower classes of their people suffer as if they were being slowly crucified every day in their lives. Then imagine that a bunch of fanboys who buy from the company you sold this story to start fanboying over that faction that you created as a parody of the KKK, the Nazis, and the Inquisition. Then imagine that, in response to that, the company that you sold that story to starts to write in that faction as a necessary evil at worst, a fundamental good at best.

That's how it feels like to be one of the makers of 40K's lore.

Shit, I read that as black templars and thought he meant no shouting "death to the xenos!"
Which would be autistic enough to frighten off the normies.

I'm surprised that the leftist 40K fans aren't rallying around the Xenos or Chaos factions like the Slaaneshi or Tau to "counter" the right-wing's love for the Imperium.

What is it, like, historical crusaders vs warhammer orcs? Huh.

Or better yet, historical crusaders versus demon-worshipers, which would be more traditional.

Even then the satire was hamstrung by being a huge ripoff of Dune, Nemesis the Warlock, and Moorcock-in-Space.

Moorcock in Space indeed, especially since they took the Chaos sign from the Elric Saga, changed it up a bit, and used that as the star of chaos:

It's like they weren't even trying to cover up where they took the symbol from..........

 

[Kup]

Well, it's a fictional setting, so the SJWs would probably say that Cawl should come up with some bullshit hocus-pocus tech to make female clones of the Primarchs (a la Omega from Bad Batch) and use that as the basis for female Space Marines, recruited from the ranks of the Adepta Sororitas.


Unlike Star Wars which constantly reminded the viewers that the Galactic Empire is evil (down to the point where playing as the Empire in various Star Wars games is basically them just letting the player enjoy playing the mustache-twirling bad guy who commits war crimes) the 40K writers fell in love with the Imperium. Unlike TCW which showed how grotesque and frightening a horde of space soldiers with unflinching obedience is, (down to the point where "GOOD SOLDIERS FOLLOW ORDERS" became a meme) 40K authors glorified the unflinching obedience the Imperium's Space Marines and Guardsmen show the regime, lionizing it as valor and necessary sacrifice, instead of the macabre, masochistic love that brainless, deluded morons have for a government that glorifies them in the morning, and tosses them into the jaws of hell at night, just so the upper crust can keep existing and mooching off the populace.

Rick Priestley, speaking in a December 2015 interview with Unplugged Games, highlighted how GW's newer crop of 40K authors missed the point of the Imperium entirely:

"To me the background to 40K was always intended to be ironic. The fact that the Space Marines were lauded as heroes within Games Workshop always amused me, because they're brutal, but they're also completely self-deceiving. The whole idea of the Emperor is that you don't know whether he's alive or dead. The whole Imperium might be running on superstition. There's no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft. It's got some parallels with religious beliefs and principles, and I think a lot of that got missed and overwritten."

Basically, imagine if you sold a story to a company to make some money, and in that story, you created a faction that lampoons the worst of the KKK, the Nazi Party, and the Spanish Inquisition, all in one, and you write in that, despite them having a justified war against Chaos and aliens, their moronic, puritanical, and superstitious way of thinking ends with them in an eternal stalemate while the lower classes of their people suffer as if they were being slowly crucified every day in their lives. Then imagine that a bunch of fanboys who buy from the company you sold this story to start fanboying over that faction that you created as a parody of the KKK, the Nazis, and the Inquisition. Then imagine that, in response to that, the company that you sold that story to starts to write in that faction as a necessary evil at worst, a fundamental good at best.

That's how it feels like to be one of the makers of 40K's lore.


I'm surprised that the leftist 40K fans aren't rallying around the Xenos or Chaos factions like the Slaaneshi or Tau to "counter" the right-wing's love for the Imperium.


Or better yet, historical crusaders versus demon-worshipers, which would be more traditional.


Moorcock in Space indeed, especially since they took the Chaos sign from the Elric Saga, changed it up a bit, and used that as the star of chaos:
View attachment 2743432View attachment 2743431
It's like they weren't even trying to cover up where they took the symbol from..........

They can have their female Space Marines when I get my male Sororitas. It cuts both ways, always will.

 

[Ghostse]

Rick Priestley, speaking in a December 2015 interview with Unplugged Games, highlighted how GW's newer crop of 40K authors missed the point of the Imperium entirely:

That's one leftoid who was wanting to cram as much "fuck you, dad." into the lore as possible though. And was replaced.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Rick Priestley, speaking in a December 2015 interview with Unplugged Games, highlighted how GW's newer crop of 40K authors missed the point of the Imperium entirely:

"To me the background to 40K was always intended to be ironic. The fact that the Space Marines were lauded as heroes within Games Workshop always amused me, because they're brutal, but they're also completely self-deceiving. The whole idea of the Emperor is that you don't know whether he's alive or dead. The whole Imperium might be running on superstition. There's no guarantee that the Emperor is anything other than a corpse with a residual mental ability to direct spacecraft. It's got some parallels with religious beliefs and principles, and I think a lot of that got missed and overwritten."

40k is the wargame equivalent of those ultraviolent movies of the 80s. It's Robocop, Rambo II, Predator and all of those rolled into one. Life is cheap, the protagonists are unstoppable (and you're not meant to think of the widows and orphans they leave in their wakes), the villains are one-dimensional, and it's fun because you can turn off your brain and enjoy the explosions and catchphrases. I would argue that's why it took off so much harder than Fantasy did: it was a lot dumber and therefore a lot more accessible.

The problem is, that shit does not survive any attempts at realism or critical analysis. It's meant to be dumb and shallow. The deeper Games Workshop dug into the "lore", the less sense the setting made, and the more objectionable it became to cheer for the "heroes". Even the most valorous Ultramarine won't hesitate to blast a civilian to pieces in order to get to an enemy hiding behind said civvie. It makes sense when everybody agrees with the claim of "it's just silly, don't take it too seriously", but if you try to apply the sort of "critical" argument the woke enjoy (read: guilt by association and genetic fallacies), the setting immediately becomes fucking awful.

Anyway, I don't have a closer for this argument. I just prefer 40K to be dumb, bombastic and ridiculous. Trying to retain its scale while at the same time attempting to make it more "realistic", or trying to reflect real-world themes or political stances, just doesn't work.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

They can have their female Space Marines when I get my male Sororitas. It cuts both ways, always will.

Heck, the SJWs would probably give you that on a silver platter. Male to female trannies becoming members of the Adepta Sororitas. The Imperium decides that it's a bad idea to sacrifice baby-makers on the battlefield, yet the Church still needs men-at-arms despite being forbidden to have men-at-arms, so they have male soldiers become trans women and they become the new Adepta Sororitas.

That's one leftoid who was wanting to cram as much "fuck you, dad." into the lore as possible though. And was replaced.

ALL of 40K was envisioned as a "FUCK YOU DAD" story. I mean, it's the exact opposite of how the Halo series practically boot-kissed the early 2000s American military and made the UNSC the USMC in space with badass dialogue. (Johnson's Regret speech and his Divine Intervention speech being great examples) 40K was envisioned as a giant middle finger to what leftists saw as right-wing traditonalism, militarism, and religious extremism. And yes, GW still thinks that way:

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2021/11/19/the-imperium-is-driven-by-hate-warhammer-is-not/

Spoiler: Games Workshop is still liberal

"There are no goodies in the Warhammer 40,000 universe.

None.

Especially not the Imperium of Man.

Its numberless legions of soldiers and zealots bludgeon their way across the galaxy, delivering death to anyone and anything that doesn’t adhere to their blinkered view of purity. Almost every man and woman toils in misery either on the battlefield – where survival is measured in hours – or in the countless manufactorums and hive slums that fuel the Imperial war machine. All of this in slavish servitude to the living corpse of a God-Emperor whose commandments are at best only half-remembered, twisted by time and the fallibility of Humanity.

Warhammer 40,000 isn’t just grimdark. It’s the grimmest, darkest.

The Imperium of Man stands as a cautionary tale of what could happen should the very worst of Humanity’s lust for power and extreme, unyielding xenophobia set in. Like so many aspects of Warhammer 40,000, the Imperium of Man is satirical.

For clarity: satire is the use of humour, irony, or exaggeration, displaying people’s vices or a system’s flaws for scorn, derision, and ridicule. Something doesn’t have to be wacky or laugh-out-loud funny to be satire. The derision is in the setting’s amplification of a tyrannical, genocidal regime, turned up to 11. The Imperium is not an aspirational state, outside of the in-universe perspectives of those who are slaves to its systems. It’s a monstrous civilisation, and its monstrousness is plain for all to see.

That said, certain real-world hate groups – and adherents of historical ideologies better left in the past – sometimes seek to claim intellectual properties for their own enjoyment, and to co-opt them for their own agendas."

So yeah, they still think that way, and they always have. People who think Warhammer 40K is some great story for nationalism have always been fooling themselves.

The difference between the Galactic Empire fandom and the Imperium of Man fandom is that most of the people that come from the former are honest that the side they root for are the mustache-twirling villains of the setting, and they even take great delight in rooting for the mustache-twirling villains of the setting, while most the latter thinks they're rooting for the good guys of the setting, or at least the lesser evil, when that was never the case. They've been rooting for the side that the authors saw as the worst of humanity all this time, even though they don't know it.

40k is the wargame equivalent of those ultraviolent movies of the 80s. It's Robocop, Rambo II, Predator and all of those rolled into one. Life is cheap, the protagonists are unstoppable (and you're not meant to think of the widows and orphans they leave in their wakes), the villains are one-dimensional, and it's fun because you can turn off your brain and enjoy the explosions and catchphrases. I would argue that's why it took off so much harder than Fantasy did: it was a lot dumber and therefore a lot more accessible.

It's basically supposed to be just dumb fun with a bit of satire creeping in from the side. The Space Marines are Stallone and Schwarzenegger dressed up like medieval knights with guns that have explosive ammo, they fight the T-800s from the Terminator, the Xenomorphs from Aliens, the demons and forces of Chaos from western religion and the Elric Saga, space versions of the Elves and Orcs from Lord of the Rings, among others. It was a place where people can enjoy gory sci-fi action, with a side dish of social commentary that was never meant to be taken too seriously outside of "FUCK MARGARET THATCHER AND THOSE RIGHT WING NAZIS!"

The problem is, that shit does not survive any attempts at realism or critical analysis. It's meant to be dumb and shallow. The deeper Games Workshop dug into the "lore", the less sense the setting made, and the more objectionable it became to cheer for the "heroes". Even the most valorous Ultramarine won't hesitate to blast a civilian to pieces in order to get to an enemy hiding behind said civvie. It makes sense when everybody agrees with the claim of "it's just silly, don't take it too seriously", but if you try to apply the sort of "critical" argument the woke enjoy (read: guilt by association and genetic fallacies), the setting immediately becomes fucking awful.

Trying to make factions like the Ultramarines look heroic was the flaw. It's like trying to make Judge Dredd look like a hero, when he's a representative of a brutal, fascist system with zero accountability. We're supposed to be thinking of the Space Marines from 40K and the Judges from Judge Dredd in the same vein as the 501st Legion marching on the Jedi Temple to indiscriminately slaughter men, women, and children under the justification of "good soldiers follow orders", but years of fanboys being so enamored with the Space Marines and guys like Judge Dredd ended with them not only LOVING these symbols of oppression, but also trying to say they're right, when really, the whole point of the franchise in general was that these guys are either brutal oppressors or brainless, self-deluded morons. Usually both.

Anyway, I don't have a closer for this argument. I just prefer 40K to be dumb, bombastic and ridiculous. Trying to retain its scale while at the same time attempting to make it more "realistic", or trying to reflect real-world themes or political stances, just doesn't work.

My opinion? 40K should have never made the move to serious storytelling in 3rd Edition. It should have just stayed a goofball sci-fi parody with a side of social commentary, instead of trying to take the story seriously as if it was Lord of the Rings or the Star Wars Expanded Universe. The story and characters were ridiculous to begin with, it should have stayed a goofball parody, so as to dissuade people from making it more realistic or serious.

It's more fun if you're just envisioning yourself as a Space Marine stomping out rebels into giblets while gunning down the Chaos daemons and aliens with explosive ammo, rather than trying to rationalize it in a realistic manner. In short, 40K was more fun when it was just "HAHAHA LOL BOLTER GO BRRRRRR" instead of trying to rationalize a setting that was made as a parody in the first place.

 

[Emperor Julian]

Their's something to be said for exploring the fallen potential of the Imperium and the humanity of it's citizens. I think if their is a mistake in current writing it's confirming the 'divinity' of the Emperor since it retroactively makes a lot of the imperiums decisions more palpable as it re-frames it's religion as partially justified instead of fucking dumb.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Their's something to be said for exploring the fallen potential of the Imperium and the humanity of it's citizens. I think if their is a mistake in current writing it's confirming the 'divinity' of the Emperor since it retroactively makes a lot of the imperiums decisions more palpable as it re-frames it's religion as partially justified instead of fucking dumb.

That's what they should have focused on. The Imperium is supposed to be fucking dumb, and the suffering of its citizens should be front and center. Hence why the series was more fun when it was just a satire. Now that the story is a serious space fantasy story, the Emperor became Tiber Septim in space, while the series is just an edgier version of the Elder Scrolls series, with the Xenos standing in for hostile races like the Thalmor Altmer and the Akaviri, the Chaos forces standing in for the Daedra, and praying to the Emperor gives you combat bonuses in battle, as opposed to it being a massive fraud because the guy they turned into the messiah is basically a fedora-tipping atheist.

So of course, tons of people get the wrong message, and admire or even adore the Imperium as a necessary good for humanity and the galaxy. The Imperium's religion, which was originally meant to be a fraudulent piece of shit where those who aren't blind zealots are con artists, is now as valid as Aedra worship in Elder Scrolls, where these gods really do exist, and praying to them gives you combat bonuses as opposed to cricket sounds.

 

[anti SJW]

killing Orc babies for fuck’s sake.

In a home DnD game, I tried to bring in a paladin of the god of killing babies so I could do that in game and still be lawful good because I'm doing it for my god.

No idea why the character got vetoed.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

In a home DnD game, I tried to bring in a paladin of the god of killing babies so I could do that in game and still be lawful good because I'm doing it for my god.

No idea why the character got vetoed.

Probably because lawful good and infanticide get along like oil and water in the eyes of most players.

 

[anti SJW]

Now SJWs want Games Workshop to just stop doing any kind of 40K stuff.

 

[Corn Flakes]

Now SJWs want Games Workshop to just stop doing any kind of 40K stuff.

And that's why pandering to these people is pointless. They will find something to tear you to shreds over no matter how hard you try to appease the mob.

 

[LORD IMPERATOR]

Now SJWs want Games Workshop to just stop doing any kind of 40K stuff.

Ironically enough, they want to ban the series that lampoons the things they hate, just because enough chuds glorify the bad guys of the setting.

But it won't change anything. GW will still try to side with SJWs because Britain is far more leftist than the USA, and 40K itself was made by people who thought Margaret Thatcher was a fascist.

 

[Kup]

In a home DnD game, I tried to bring in a paladin of the god of killing babies so I could do that in game and still be lawful good because I'm doing it for my god.

No idea why the character got vetoed.

In my “Deus Vult” all-Paladin game one of the players really wanted to push the envelope and literally made an orc “bite the curb” and……. just imagine that for a second.

Not-Knights Templar Sworn Brother, absolutely wigging out at an orc who looked at him funny. Dragging said orc over to the nearest “curb” which in this case was the base of a orc shrine and sure enough, he brought the boot down.

Caused a slave riot.

 

[anti SJW]

Games Workshop HQ closed due to major sewage collapse

Games Workshop headquarters in Nottingham shut 'until further notice' due to major sewage collapse​

It is unknown when the workshop will reopen.

Work is underway to fix the issue (Image: Jack Watson)
Games Workshop's Nottingham headquarters in Lenton is closed 'until further notice' after a major sewage collapse.
The company which produces Warhammer products at its Nottingham factory and offices site, confirmed its headquarters and Warhammer World building in Willow Road is shut after the collapse yesterday morning (Monday, November 22).
The incident meant the road had to be completely closed off, resulting in the closure of the popular store.
Work is currently ongoing to tackle the problem.
In a statement issued on its Facebook page yesterday, Games Workshop: Warhammer World said: "Due to unforeseen circumstances Warhammer World will be closed until further notice.
"We have had a burst water main on the corner of Willow Road and Lenton Lane and the council have completely closed Willow Road which allows no access.
"We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause and will continue to update you here as soon as we are able to reopen."
In an update today, it added: "Please note Warhammer World remains closed until further notice."
A Highways alert issued by Nottingham City Council confirmed Willow Road had been closed at the junction with Lenton Lane, as well as the area of Lenton Lane outside the sewage pumping station, Nottingham.


So its true, Games Workshop is full of shit. Literally.

 

[Inquisitor_BadAss]

Games Workshop HQ closed due to major sewage collapse

Games Workshop headquarters in Nottingham shut 'until further notice' due to major sewage collapse​

It is unknown when the workshop will reopen.

Work is underway to fix the issue (Image: Jack Watson)
Games Workshop's Nottingham headquarters in Lenton is closed 'until further notice' after a major sewage collapse.
The company which produces Warhammer products at its Nottingham factory and offices site, confirmed its headquarters and Warhammer World building in Willow Road is shut after the collapse yesterday morning (Monday, November 22).
The incident meant the road had to be completely closed off, resulting in the closure of the popular store.
Work is currently ongoing to tackle the problem.
In a statement issued on its Facebook page yesterday, Games Workshop: Warhammer World said: "Due to unforeseen circumstances Warhammer World will be closed until further notice.
"We have had a burst water main on the corner of Willow Road and Lenton Lane and the council have completely closed Willow Road which allows no access.
"We apologise for any inconvenience this may cause and will continue to update you here as soon as we are able to reopen."
In an update today, it added: "Please note Warhammer World remains closed until further notice."
A Highways alert issued by Nottingham City Council confirmed Willow Road had been closed at the junction with Lenton Lane, as well as the area of Lenton Lane outside the sewage pumping station, Nottingham.


So its true, Games Workshop is full of shit. Literally.

Possible culprits are disgruntled employees or rat men making their way to the surface.

 

[Adamska]

Possible culprits are disgruntled employees or rat men making their way to the surface.

It could also probably be disgruntled old fans given that they seem deadset on being as shitty as possible. Either that or Papa Nurgle decided to play a joke.

 

[Newman's Lovechild]

They flushed their remaining stock of finecast 'resin'.