The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Chugger]

Hey where is Hitler ordering the gassing of Jews?

gave order orally

Where is the dead bodies of gassed jews?

Most destroyed though not all

Friedrich Paul Berg yelled for "PHOTOS photos of gassing victims"...

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

If they destroyed the bodies where is the piles of equipment necessary?

They removed the equipment, and we have documents ordering such removal

Why can't you answer any of these basic questions before you dive into anything else?

Also pretending like hundreds of millions of people on Eastern Europe and the Middle East weren't displaced by war is hilarious.

To paraphrase an old codoh joke, how many resettlement cities do you have evidence of the Jews being put in?

1 resettlement city of 3 million? 10 resettlement cities of 300,000? 50 Birkenau sized resettlement cities of 60,000?

 

[Chugger]

@Rapechu, just look at General Government-- which had a population of 2 mil when Nazis took over in 39. By December 1942 that had gone down by 85% concurrent with Himmler's order to resettle Jewish population of GG

If you have any evidence of mass emigration out of Poland once Nazis took over (absolutely ridiculous once the war started), please show us. Nazis actually banned this in 41 lol https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/order-banning-the-emigration-of-jews-from-the-reich
----

Is it possible that thousands of documents are fabricated? Yes. Any document could be faked, and perfect or near perfect forgeries could easily exist.

However is there compelling evidence of even a single document being faked? No.

So all these thousands of documents (like the Just memo) are evidence for the Holocaust, the kind of evidence that is completely absent for resettlement of millions of Jews in Russia.

 

[Rapechu]

gave order orally

So imagine this scenario:

"Go kill jews"
"but that is a war crime"
"Hitler says it's okay"
"do you have any proof?"
"no"
"then I am not doing it"

How does an army enforce its policies without knowing what the orders are or where they originate from? "The orders probably came from Hitler, just trust me" is not gonna cut it.

Most destroyed though not all

Friedrich Paul Berg yelled for "PHOTOS photos of gassing victims"...

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

There is no evidence given here of the gas vans (the alleged murder weapons) used.

They removed the equipment

And obliterated it from existence?

Why is this the answer for so many of our questions? That the evidence was just wiped from existence, down to the last trace?

@Rapechu, just look at Poland/Bialystok then-- which had a population of 2.79 mil when Nazis took over in 39. By December 1942 that had gone down by 2 mil, concurrent with Himmler's order to resettle Jewish population of General Government

If you have any evidence of mass emigration out of Poland once Nazis took over (absolutely ridiculous once the war started), please show us. Nazis actually banned this in 41 lol https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/order-banning-the-emigration-of-jews-from-the-reich
----

Is it possible that thousands of documents are fabricated? Yes. Any document could be faked, and perfect or near perfect forgeries could easily exist.

However is there compelling evidence of even a single document being faked? No.

So all these thousands of documents (like the Just memo) are evidence for the Holocaust, the kind of evidence that is completely absent for resettlement of millions of Jews in Russia.

Is there evidence of a document being faked? Yes! We have seen the absurdity of claiming 10,000 men can be driven out to the woods and killed in a single winter day with only some 10 or so Opel Blitz. This indicates that Ohlenburg's testimony and associated documents were false. Who put Ohlenburg up to it? Manstein was polite (by necessity) and merely refuted the charges without calling into question the integrity of the court, but I absolutely will.

 

[Chugger]

So imagine this scenario:

"Go kill jews"
"but that is a war crime"
"Hitler says it's okay"
"do you have any proof?"
"no"
"then I am not doing it"

How does an army enforce its policies without knowing what the orders are or where they originate from? "The orders probably came from Hitler, just trust me" is not gonna cut it.

In our previous conversation, we saw orders giving SS precedence when it came to dealing with Jews.

And obliterated it from existence?

Why is this the answer for so many of our questions? That the evidence was just wiped from existence, down to the last trace?

Unlike with resettlement of millions, there is documented evidence of this (Germans removing the equipment used during Operation Reinhardt -- just search this thread for 'Globocnik')

Is there evidence of a document being faked? Yes! We have seen the absurdity of claiming 10,000 men can be driven out to the woods and killed in a single winter day with only some 10 or so Opel Blitz. This indicates that Ohlenburg's testimony and associated documents were false. Who put Ohlenburg up to it? Manstein was polite (by necessity) and merely refuted the charges without calling into question the integrity of the court, but I absolutely will.

Which document then? Let's be specific.

And please answer the question about the 85% reduction of Polish Jewish population by 1942, following Himmler's order for wide scale resettlement of the GG. You said resettlement figures were 10% of stated amount?

 

[Rapechu]

In our previous conversation, we saw orders giving SS precedence when it came to dealing with Jews.

Even the SS can't act without orders. Up until mid 1941, there is no doubt among even mainstream historians that "resettle", "evacuate", "deport", etc. means exactly what it says it means. Yet at some arbitrary point, this all changed. How were the subordinates to now know that what they had been doing has suddenly changed, and how do they carry out legitimate transits when they are needed (EG for the sake of labor)? It can't be done, it would be a complete bureaucratic nightmare.

Unlike with resettlement of millions, there is documented evidence of this (Germans removing the equipment used during Operation Reinhardt -- just search this thread for 'Globocnik')

You said yourself, evidence can't be destroyed down to the last trace, there is always remnants. How come, in all the territory the USSR captured during its successful offensives, it never captured a single gas van, for example? If gas vans were produced in the thousands, then not a single one was ever captured by the soviets? Not a single was captured by Polish resistance? Not a single was captured by the western allies? Not a single survived the war, forgotten in some garage somewhere?

Same question applies for the corpse destruction/bone destruction/etc. implements which are essential to the holocaust story and which must have existed in the hundreds or thousands yet were never found.

Which document then? Let's be specific.

If you want obviously forged documents, then just look at what you already posted yourself. Simferopol was claimed cleared of jews, but wasn't, why? Belzec was claimed to be killing 70,000 jews a month with only 52 men, why? All the documents which Irving was able to examine, were retyped, why? Etc.

Here's the biggest example of a forgery:

Paper: WAR CRIMES TRIALS KATYN: How the Soviets Manufactured War Crime Documents for the Nuremberg Court

Website: https://www.cwporter.com/k1.htm

Going to start out with false testimonies for the sake of overall context:

""For a long time she didn't say a single word," Alekseyev Michail testified, "Only when returned from her work, she complained that it was strange to work there and that she didn't know how she could get away. When I asked her what made it so strange, she answered that shots could very often be heard in the forest. Once, when she came back home, she told me confidentially that the Germans were shooting Poles in the Kozy Gory forest. After listening to my daughter, I warned her most severely not to speak to anyone else about it. otherwise the Germans would find out about it and our whole family would suffer.""

^False witness testimony (one of dozens of false witnesses listed). This proves the unreliability of eyewitnesses produced by the soviets.

"It is known to me that, approximately in the second half of February or the beginning of March 1943, approximately 500 Red Army prisoners of war from our camp were transported in an undisclosed direction. These prisoners of war were said to be going to do construction work, and therefore the Germans selected the most powerfully built men."

^Seems oddly similar to the holocaust narrative, about how the bulk of the labor was done by prisoners. There is also the claim here that the Germans were trying to cover up the crimes. Hmmmm... where have I heard that before?

"In addition to the information proven in the documents of the forensic medical report, the time of the shootings of the Polish prisoners of war by the Germans (autumn 1941, not the spring of 1940, as claimed by the Germans), was also established by documents discovered during the excavation of the graves, dating not only from the second half of 1940, but also from the spring and summer (March-June) of 1941."

^To answer your question more directly, here is an example of the Soviets pushing forged documents (letters dated just before the start of Operation Barbarossa, planted on victims of the Katyn massacre). This provides precedent for forged documents presented as evidence against Germans.

If you want me to believe the holocaust as a planned genocide, you will have to AT LEAST provide more compelling evidence than what the soviets provided for their now-exposed falsifications at Katyn.

And please answer the question about the 85% reduction of Polish Jewish population by 1942, following Himmler's order for wide scale resettlement of the GG. You said resettlement figures were 10% of stated amount?

After the iron curtain fell, with the subsequent soviet frameups, it's impossible to track how population moved, or that the population was accurately censused. There was a war going on, and a famine resulting from it. We know that the jews were resettled to camps, we know that jews were also deported for labor, and we know that the USSR moved around literally MILLIONS of people in Poland and East Germany after WW2. So there are plenty of plausible explanations.

 

[Bonesjones]

gave order orally


Most destroyed though not all

Friedrich Paul Berg yelled for "PHOTOS photos of gassing victims"...

Exploring Holocaust history. Debunking Holocaust denial.

holocaustcontroversies.blogspot.com

They removed the equipment, and we have documents ordering such removal


To paraphrase an old codoh joke, how many resettlement cities do you have evidence of the Jews being put in?

1 resettlement city of 3 million? 10 resettlement cities of 300,000? 50 Birkenau sized resettlement cities of 60,000?

Lol it's the telepathic Nazi theory. See they just all knew! Not only are they all psychic they also have the power of magically making things disappear without a trace. I guess Himmler found the Holy Grail after all.

Its weird how all you have are baseless assertions and not much else.

 

[JohnDoe]

claims of how the bodies were destroyed did not require extensive equipment, so the question is mostly moot. The flaws are elsewhere.

I guess that you could destroy bodies with minimal specialized equipment, but it would be hilariously inefficient in terms of manpower and material. Luckily the Germans had lots of manpower and were swimming in fuel and combustibles so obliterating 6 million corpses would be easy then.....oh wait, there was a lack of both you say? So specialized equipment would have been necessary, you say? Yet it's never been found or documented?

How curious.

 

[Rapechu]

Following soviet occupation there was a >85% reduction in the population of Germans in Poland as well.

So maybe we should be talking about the German holocaust instead, eh?

I guess that you could destroy bodies with minimal specialized equipment, but it would be hilariously inefficient in terms of manpower and material. Luckily the Germans had lots of manpower and were swimming in fuel and combustibles so obliterating 6 million corpses would be easy then.....oh wait, there was a lack of both you say? So specialized equipment would have been necessary, you say? Yet it's never been found or documented?

How curious.

One weird thing is just how -inconsistent- the alleged methods were.

Some jews had been kept in transit camps, alive for years, others were sent to death camps, which they also survived, along with all their disabled family members (https://www.thirteen.org/blog-post/the-dwarfs-who-survived-auschwitz/). The old and the sick jews were executed immediately, except for the 200,000 or so who were sent to the retirement settlement of Thereisenstadt. Some of the jews were gassed on sight, and others were transported far into Russia (during a logistics bottleneck) just to drive them into the woods and shoot them. Some were killed in gas vans, but these all vanished. The major camps like Auschwitz had crematories designed for fuel-efficient cremation... but these didn't have nearly the capacity to destroy all the number of bodies claimed, so the Germans just burnt them in open pits. Some of these pits were burnt with gasoline, during a fuel shortage, though no pictures exist of this happening. Some of these pits used wood as the primary fuel, though we can't find any of the mountains of charcoal that would produce, nor can we find the records of massive train shipments of lumber, or massive lumber yards at these sites. Some of these bodies were just burnt without any fuel at all, using the body's own fat apparently.

If I were engaging in the largest genocide in history, one thing I would do, is have fuel efficient crematories set up beforehand. Or if I can't do that, then I wouldn't bother trying to burn the bodies at all, and would just throw them in a ditch like the soviets did with their victims. But then again, I'm not a mastermind like Hitler who can psychically erase all photographs and communicate my will psychically to all my subordinates, or burn corpses with body fat alone.

 

[Chugger]

Lol it's the telepathic Nazi theory. See they just all knew! Not only are they all psychic they also have the power of magically making things disappear without a trace. I guess Himmler found the Holy Grail after all.

Its weird how all you have are baseless assertions and not much else.

I clearly don't believe they disappeared without a trace, see my numerous posts about the crematory layers at Belzec

, and yeah the Nazis could speak and use telephones and also destroyed documents. Yet local orders exist for killing Jews eg

But I'm not gonna give you more of my generous time since you don't seem to be interested in pressing questions like

"How many resettlement cities do you have evidence of the Jews being put in?

1 resettlement city of 3 million?
10 resettlement cities of 300,000?
50 Birkenau sized resettlement cities of 60,000?"

 

[Chugger]

Following soviet occupation there was a >85% reduction in the population of Germans in Poland as well.

and yeah this mass population transfer is well documented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944–1950)

They went back to Germany, and there's evidence of this lol. On the other hand, there's zero evidence of the "resettled" Polish Jews ever making it into Russia.

"If you want me to believe the holocaust as a planned genocide, you will have to AT LEAST provide more compelling evidence than what the soviets provided for their now-exposed falsifications at Katyn."

You posted some stuff by CW Porter, a true dum dum. I wouldn't expect you to necessarily pick up on this since you're clearly very new to all this, but in his expose about Soviet forgeries re Katyn he doesn't list a single German document, like the many I've shown over here the past 2 months.

eg Just Memo* or Becker letter:

So he tries to present Katyn as a precedent for the Holocaust when in fact the absence of forged German documents shows the Holocaust to be clearly a different animal.

So yeah, for the Holocaust there are hundreds or thousands of apparently fake or manufactured German documents, yet for Katyn there isn't even one. Deniers ratfucked by their own arguments yet again

*to clear something up among the mountains of bullshit you spout, you intimated historians believe there were "thousands of Gas Vans" . Yet the Just memo says : "ninety-seven thousand have been processed using three vans" over 6 months. Can you read?

 

[Bonesjones]

I clearly don't believe they disappeared without a trace, see my numerous posts about the crematory layers at Belzec

, and yeah the Nazis could speak and use telephones and also destroyed documents. Yet local orders exist for killing Jews eg

View attachment 2768314

But I'm not gonna give you more of my generous time since you don't seem to be interested in pressing questions like

"How many resettlement cities do you have evidence of the Jews being put in?

1 resettlement city of 3 million?
10 resettlement cities of 300,000?
50 Birkenau sized resettlement cities of 60,000?"

Considering you've posted no proof of anything, you clearly do. Belzec has evidence of crematory remains but no proof of anything considering they've done nothing to quantify what it's composition is, what amount, who the remains belong to. Again you've shown evidence of something but not what you say it is, which is something you've done this whole time.

Hey look another document that directly contradicts what you say, so they were ordered to kill all the jews (except for the men who could work and also the women and children who were driven into the wilderness). That sure is some genocide full of exceptions. It's almost as if they didn't actually intend or even try to kill them at all.

You arent going to waste your time being made a fool of time and time again. Since you can't even post one thing that isn't instantly torn apart at a cursory glance. So go hide in your hole.

You still haven't posted high level orders that said kill all the Jews. You still haven't posted proof of any gassing whatsoever. You still haven't posted proof of the mechanism that they destroyed the remains. You haven't even met the basics of reasonable doubt. All you do is deflect and gloss over any questions and defer to random documents that are interpreted to agree with you, with zero physical factual support. You are literally a moron.

 

[Chugger]

Considering you've posted no proof of anything, you clearly do. Belzec has evidence of crematory remains but no proof of anything considering they've done nothing to quantify what it's composition is, what amount, who the remains belong to. Again you've shown evidence of something but not what you say it is, which is something you've done this whole time.

Hey look another document that directly contradicts what you say, so they were ordered to kill all the jews (except for the men who could work and also the women and children who were driven into the wilderness). That sure is some genocide full of exceptions. It's almost as if they didn't actually intend or even try to kill them at all.

You arent going to waste your time being made a fool of time and time again. Since you can't even post one thing that isn't instantly torn apart at a cursory glance. So go hide in your hole.

You still haven't posted high level orders that said kill all the Jews. You still haven't posted proof of any gassing whatsoever. You still haven't posted proof of the mechanism that they destroyed the remains. You haven't even met the basics of reasonable doubt. All you do is deflect and gloss over any questions and defer to random documents that are interpreted to agree with you, with zero physical factual support. You are literally a moron.

Philosophical question. If a moron calls you a moron, does that mean you're smart?

"explicit order by Reichsfuhrer-SS (that is Himmler, second or third most powerful figure in Germany): All Jews must be shot"

 

[Rapechu]

I clearly don't believe they disappeared without a trace, see my numerous posts about the crematory layers at Belzec

, and yeah the Nazis could speak and use telephones and also destroyed documents. Yet local orders exist for killing Jews eg

View attachment 2768314

Jesus Christ, you are once again doing the exact same thing I complained about yesterday, by falsely conflating the anti-partisan police actions with the holocaust. It says in this very document that this was in response to the locals supporting partisans.

The claim here isn't that the German occupation of the east wasn't a harsh martial law police state, but that they didn't have a secret execution campaign going on alongside their reprisals. When the Germans talked about their police actions, they didn't mince words, they were quite open about them. What you will need to provide, is evidence of this top secret German conspiracy, and its alleged killing methods (gas vans, for example) which proves that Germans were actually killing jews upon obtaining custody of them as a policy of genocide, rather than as a martial law response to, say, a transport truck being bombed.

But I'm not gonna give you more of my generous time since you don't seem to be interested in pressing questions like

"How many resettlement cities do you have evidence of the Jews being put in?

1 resettlement city of 3 million?
10 resettlement cities of 300,000?
50 Birkenau sized resettlement cities of 60,000?"

Why does it have to be a camp? Why does it even have to be a permanent location?

Ostarbeiter - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

After WW2 there were millions of people classified as Displaced People.

Also, you're happily ignoring the fact that the "3 million" number is likely forged.

and yeah this mass population transfer is well documented. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flight_and_expulsion_of_Germans_(1944–1950)

The death toll attributable to the flight and expulsions is disputed, with estimates ranging from 500,000–600,000[14][15] and up to 2 to 2.5 million.[16][17][18]

They went back to Germany, and there's evidence of this lol.

Went back to Germany in body bags, you mean

On the other hand, there's zero evidence of the "resettled" Polish Jews ever making it into Russia.

Well I don't expect the soviets to produce evidence that contradicts their own claims. I've provided plausible explanations for what happened to them.

If the documents say 3 million jews went to Russia, and we can't find them in Russia, then perhaps you can then verify that the documents are accurate and provide some physical proof as to their deaths? I mean, this is 3 million dead bodies, right? You should be able to perform a forensic analysis on at least one person, and link them to the resettlements, right? But whoops we don't have this.

This is a "Holocaust of the Gaps". You point to the place where the least records exist, in the most oppressive police state dictatorship, known for falsifying massacres, and say "this is probably where most of the holocaust happened". The absence of this information you seek has multiple possible conclusions, not just "the Germans killed them all". Can you rule out any of the other options? Or are you just going to insist on the one you believe in, without providing evidence of it (because non exists)?

"If you want me to believe the holocaust as a planned genocide, you will have to AT LEAST provide more compelling evidence than what the soviets provided for their now-exposed falsifications at Katyn."

You posted some stuff by CW Porter, a true dum dum. I wouldn't expect you to necessarily pick up on this since you're clearly an amateur, but in his expose about Soviet forgeries re Katyn he doesn't list a single German document, like the many I've shown over here the past 2 months.

The document I linked to is a translation, his commentaries aren't important. He cites the source documents, and if you have an issue with the translation you can look it up and please inform me why it's inaccurate, as I don't speak Russian.

eg Just Memo

More talk of the stupid gas vans without a single gas van to show for it. Not a single gas van was ever found by any of the occupying powers. Spooky holocaust, no physical evidence.

So he tries to present Katyn as a precedent for the Holocaust when in fact the absence of forged German documents shows the Holocaust to be clearly a different animal.

Are you just going to go for the ridiculous route of saying "the Soviets lied about Katyn and forged papers for THIS, but would NEVER lie about the holocaust and forge papers for THAT!" just like you did with the British and their well-known lies?

Can you please explain what moral principle or otherwise what motivation they would have for upholding the sacredness and inviolability of the Holocaust while engaging in frameups elsewhere? This is absolutely bonkers logic you have going on.

What I am providing here is precedent that the USSR has produced falsified documents (forged letters to family from Polish people), which were used as evidence. So they clearly have no moral compulsions against forging letters and signatures and dates and attributing them to people. Is it because it is so hard to forge official German documents and put a German signature on them? No... You know that a copied German document can be easily editted to change its content, right? So this isn't particularly difficult.

Declassified documents prove U.S. DID help cover up 1940 Katyn massacre where Soviets slaughtered 22,000 Polish officers

Newly declassified U.S. army documents proving that two American POWs wrote encoded messages to Army intelligence, MIS-X, soon after their 1943 visit to Katyn, pointing to Soviet guilt for the 1940 massacre.

www.dailymail.co.uk

And the USA helped cover it up too, so the western allies are just as complicit. Just an FYI.

To be clear, for the Holocaust there are hundreds or thousands of apparently fake or manufactured German documents, yet for Katyn there isn't even one. Deniers ratfucked by their own arguments yet again

I think you may be insane. "Yes they forged documents before, that PROVES they didn't forge documents again!"

This is some troll logic.

 

[Bonesjones]

Philosophical question. If a moron calls you a moron, does that mean you're smart?

View attachment 2768760

"explicit order by Reichsfuhrer-SS (that is Himmler, second or third most powerful figure in Germany): All Jews must be shot"

Philosophical question: if someone proves everything you say happened wrong, that means it must have happened, right?

All jews must be shot! Except the ones you don't! Literally contradicted in the same sentence. Again, amazing how this keeps happening.

 

[Chugger]

@Rapechu I think I made you insane, you sound a bit loony no offense, I'm sorry for that. I'm trying to be as gentle as I can given the foolishness of your position. Still can't quote your posts because they're always too long.

You said:

"If you want me to believe the holocaust as a planned genocide, you will have to AT LEAST provide more compelling evidence than what the soviets provided for their now-exposed falsifications at Katyn."

German documents are more compelling evidence. The Soviets didn't forge any German documents to back up their Katyn story. Yet you believe they forged hundreds or thousands of such documents for the Holocaust.

-----

"Also, you're happily ignoring the fact that the "3 million" number is likely forged."

WTF? That "3 million number" of resettled Jews is one revisionists much better educated than yourself would probably agree with

eg Thomas Kues says here 2 million were deported east

This would be in addition the Jews "resettled" when the ghettos of Ostland, White Russia, and Ukraine were liquidated

Yet there's no evidence of anything being done with these people other than them being murdered in various ways, sorry hate to break it to you. I would recommend going through Kues's article just to see how non-existent the case is. It's no surprise he left the revisionist scene shortly after writing this series.

 

[Rapechu]

@Rapechu I think I made you insane, you sound a bit loony no offense, I'm sorry for that. I'm trying to be as gentle as I can given the foolishness of your position. Still can't quote your posts because they're always too long.

You said:

"If you want me to believe the holocaust as a planned genocide, you will have to AT LEAST provide more compelling evidence than what the soviets provided for their now-exposed falsifications at Katyn."

German documents are more compelling evidence. The Soviets didn't forge any German documents to back up their Katyn story. Yet you believe they forged hundreds or thousands of such documents for the Holocaust.

Read the article again.

Report by a Special Soviet Commission, 24 January 1944

Wait, what's the year on this report? Let's magnify it

24 January 1944

Hmm... so it seems that the report was written DURING WW2, not afterwards. So please explain to me how you think the Soviets would explain having obtained top secret documents from Berlin in 1944 without even having occupied Berlin yet? That would be quite a blunder for them to try to pull off now wouldn't it?

"Also, you're happily ignoring the fact that the "3 million" number is likely forged."

WTF? That "3 million number" of resettled Jews is one revisionists much better educated than yourself would probably agree with

eg Thomas Kues says here 2 million were deported east

View attachment 2768824

This would be in addition the Jews "resettled" when the ghettos of Ostland, White Russia, and Ukraine were liquidated

Yet there's no evidence of anything being done with these people other than them being murdered in various ways, sorry hate to break it to you. I would recommend going through Kues's article just to see how non-existent the case is. It's no surprise he left the revisionist scene shortly after writing this series.

The 2-3 million number you are giving has what source? USSR documents, and captured German documents, correct?

So since both of these are essentially from the same source (USSR custody) then the integrity of the custodian has to be called into question.

 

[Bonesjones]

@Rapechu I think I made you insane, you sound a bit loony no offense, I'm sorry for that. I'm trying to be as gentle as I can given the foolishness of your position. Still can't quote your posts because they're always too long.

You said:

"If you want me to believe the holocaust as a planned genocide, you will have to AT LEAST provide more compelling evidence than what the soviets provided for their now-exposed falsifications at Katyn."

German documents are more compelling evidence. The Soviets didn't forge any German documents to back up their Katyn story. Yet you believe they forged hundreds or thousands of such documents for the Holocaust.

-----

"Also, you're happily ignoring the fact that the "3 million" number is likely forged."

WTF? That "3 million number" of resettled Jews is one revisionists much better educated than yourself would probably agree with

eg Thomas Kues says here 2 million were deported east

View attachment 2768824

This would be in addition the Jews "resettled" when the ghettos of Ostland, White Russia, and Ukraine were liquidated

Yet there's no evidence of anything being done with these people other than them being murdered in various ways, sorry hate to break it to you. I would recommend going through Kues's article just to see how non-existent the case is. It's no surprise he left the revisionist scene shortly after writing this series.

I like how you post a graph of the summation of estimated transports and then ignore the 30 or so pages of what mainstream evidence can be collected that shows what happened. Which was deported to Belarus, Ukraine, and further in labor camps. I know lying by omission is your MO but it doesn't work.

Most of the Aktion Rienhardt camps are conveniently located where European sized train tracks run out and Russian sized train tracks begin. Weird. Why would you put a camp in a place you'd be required to change trains. Must be where they shaved the Yetis to make the gas chamber camouflage.

 

[Übertroon]

Even with family members who died in concentration camps during the war it's difficult to shake off the feeling that it was a consequences of stuffing millions of people into cramped camps during a time with several epidemics of typhoid, cholera, and tuberculosis, and with German supply lines being bombed back to the stone age and a inability to feed its own population.

If German troops have to subsist on permanent iron rations then what the hell would you be feeding undesirable prisoners with? No one can deny that the nazis wanted a lot of people dead and gone, but it seems more likely that the Germans would just let them starve and die than waste resources on having to gas and cremate people.

 

[Rapechu]

@Rapechu I think I made you insane, you sound a bit loony no offense, I'm sorry for that. I'm trying to be as gentle as I can given the foolishness of your position. Still can't quote your posts because they're always too long.

You said:

"If you want me to believe the holocaust as a planned genocide, you will have to AT LEAST provide more compelling evidence than what the soviets provided for their now-exposed falsifications at Katyn."

German documents are more compelling evidence. The Soviets didn't forge any German documents to back up their Katyn story. Yet you believe they forged hundreds or thousands of such documents for the Holocaust.

-----

"Also, you're happily ignoring the fact that the "3 million" number is likely forged."

WTF? That "3 million number" of resettled Jews is one revisionists much better educated than yourself would probably agree with

eg Thomas Kues says here 2 million were deported east

View attachment 2768824

This would be in addition the Jews "resettled" when the ghettos of Ostland, White Russia, and Ukraine were liquidated

Yet there's no evidence of anything being done with these people other than them being murdered in various ways, sorry hate to break it to you. I would recommend going through Kues's article just to see how non-existent the case is. It's no surprise he left the revisionist scene shortly after writing this series.

Some interesting points from the article you posted:

Some 15 km to the north-north-east of Kuremäe we find Vaivara, a concentration camp from which a large number of Jews [20,000 is one estimate] as well as Soviet POW:s were distributed to a network of labor camps in the north-eastern part of Estonia, including Klooga, Narva-Ost, Aseri, Kiviõli, Viivikonna, Lagedi, and, indeed, Kuremäe. The presence of Reich and other Kovno Jews in “Camp Kurame” fits well with the mention in Lebke Distel’s story of Kovno Jews being present at “Koromej”. Unfortunately, Reich does not mention the origin of the other inmates of the camp.

There is not a single large camp, but networks of hundreds of tiny camps. It is as I said before, that I don't see why the jews had to be resettled to a single large camp complex like Auschwitz, when they were probably simply distributed wherever they were needed. Many of these labor camps were temporary and once the workers completed a section of the road (or whatever they were building), the camp would be stricken down and relocated.

Jack Ratz was born in Riga in 1927. In May 1943 he was sent to Lenta, a labor camp some 40 km north-east of Riga, where some 500 Jews worked[192]: “After two months, four hundred Jews were left in Lenta, all Latvians. After a few months, a new transport arrived, but the newcomers were not Latvian. They were German, Czechoslovakian, Austrian, and Polish Jews. Some of the foreign Jews were from the Riga ghetto; the Polish Jews had come straight from Poland. Lenta now had a mixed Jewish population.”

Camps as small as 500 exist.

Five Jews who risked their lives by escaping from a labor camp, where they had been employed at highway construction, arrived in the Ghetto, having traveled by various routes. The inmates of this labor camp had been transferred by road to Riga, and fifty Jews escaped during the transfer. As they jumped off the trucks, they were shot at. Two of the escapees waded into the [unnamed] river and remained hiding there, submerged in the water up to their necks. After the first danger passed, they entered the forest and hid there. Then they traveled by roundabout paths until they reached Kovno."

Escapes were very common, both from the camps, and during transportation.

A Partial List of Camps with Jewish detainees in Lithuania​

• Abbreviated Main Sources
• T: A. Tory, Surviving the Holocaust (Harvard University Press 1990).
• K: H. Kruk, The Last Days of the Jerusalem of Lithuania (Yale University Press 2002)
• NL: Martin Weinmann (ed.), Das nationalsozialistische Lagersystem.[91]
• Aleksotas – labor camp in western Kovno suburb at the site of an airfield (NL p. 665, T p. 455).
• Babtai – camp where some 1,500 Jews were employed at an "Heeresbaudienststelle" (Army construction bureau).[92]
• Batcum – camp belonging to the Siauliai (Schaulen) Ghetto with 500-1,000 inmates, established 1942, closed 1944 (NL, p. 665).
• Bezdany – peat-digging camp 25 km from Vilna (K, p. 120, 486).
• Biała Waka – peat-digging camp 14 km from Vilna (K, p. 120, 407).[93]
• Darbenai – camp in the Kretinga district.[94]
• Demitrau (Dimitravas) – camp in the Kretinga district.[95]
• Ezereliai (Ezerilis) – subcamp to KL Kauen (Kovno) with accommodations for 1,200 Jews.[96]
• Jonava – labor camp with some hundred inmates.[97]
• Kacergin – Jewish tree-felling unit located in suburb of Kovno (T, p. 114).
• Kailis – "Jewish labor camp" inside Vilna (K, pp. 134-135).
• KL Kauen (Kovno) – concentration camp replacing the liquidated Kovno Ghetto in June 1943, closed on 25 July 1944 (NL, p. 299).
• Kazlu-Ruda (Raudondvaris) – subcamp to KL Kauen with 300 Jewish inmates some 20 km south of Kovno, established in early 1944.[98]
• Keidan – labor camp connected with the construction of an airfield (T, pp. 448-453). May be the same as Kedanen/Kidarniai (NL).
• Kiena – peat-digging camp, likely near Vilna, apparently run by Organization Todt (K, p. 120, 366, 630). Likely identical with the Keni labor camp mentioned by Tory, who asserts that all of the camp inmates, "300 in all", were burned alive in July 1943 (T, p. 430).
• Koschedaren (Kaisiadorys) – Tory gives the name as Koshedar (T, p. 482), but also as Kaisiadorys: "the peat-digging camp at Kaisiadorys, where 350 Ghetto residents do forced labor" (T, p. 454).
• Kybartai – small town on German border with Jewish camp or labor unit (T, p. 113).
• Linkaiciai (Linkeitz) – labor camp halfway between Kovno and Siauliai where Jews worked in army factories and warehouses, a sugar refinery and with peat digging (T p. 126, 460).
• Marijampolé – Army camp in the vicinity of this city to which 400 Kovno Jews were transferred in late September 1943 (T, p. 482).
• Miligan (Milejgany) – labor camp for road construction (T, pp. 389-390, 492).
• Nowa Wiljeka – Jewish labor camp in the town of the same name (K, p. 485).
• Oszmianka – labor camp run by Organization Todt, located near the town of Oszmiana (K, p. 621).
• Palemonas – peat-digging camp 10 km from Kovno; a brick factory was also located here (T, p. 58, 60, 92, 482).
• Panemune – labor (possibly peat digging) camp.[99]
• Panevezys (Ponevezh) – City in northern Lithuania where a ghetto and later a Jewish camp was located; according to the witness Reska Weiss there lived as many as 30,000 Jews in the camp in the summer of 1944, mainly Baltic Jews.[100]
• Petrasunai (Petrasun) – Kovno suburb where Jews worked in a paper factory and at an electric power plant, accommodations for 5,000 Jews were reportedly under construction here in August 1943 (T, p. 116, 188, 455).
• Podbrodzie – labor camp or site to where 400 Vilna Jews were sent in early May 1942 (K, pp. 286-287).
• Porubanek – groups of Jews worked here in early 1942 with unpacking and sorting weapons and ammunition (K, p. 173).
• Provienishok (Pravieniskis) – labor camp 20 km south-east of Kovno (T, p. 115). This is likely the same camp as Prawienischken or Proveniskaiai, which according to NL (p. 666) housed 5,000 – 6,000 inmates "working in the woods"; it was established in 1941 and closed sometime in 1944 .
• Radvilishok (Radviliskis) – ghetto and peat-digging labor camp in central Lithuania, railway junction (T, p. 113).
• Rudziszki – labor camp (K, p. 629).
• Rzesza – peat-digging camp 15 km from Vilna with a few hundred Jewish detainees (K, p. 118, 366).
• Sanciai (Schantz) – labor camp in a suburb of Kovno (T, p. 318, 455, 482, 501).
• Siauliai (Schaulen) – the ghetto in this city in north-western Lithuania was the third largest in the country; after its liquidation it was replaced on 17 September 1943 with Concentration Camp Schaulen. Inmates evaucated to Stutthof on 21 July 1944. According to the aforementioned Reska Weiss it held as many as 30,000 Jews in the summer of 1944.[101]
• Sorok Tatary – forestry labor camp 15 km from Vilna (K, p. 400).
• Swieciany – Jewish labor camp about 80 km from Vilna (K, p. 485, 513).
• Veivirzenai – camp located between Taurage and Kretinga employing Jewish women in agricultural labor (K, p. 483).
• Vievis – Jewish labor camp near the town of Vievis (cf. §3.3.1.).
• Volary – camp for Jews (NL, p. 299).
• Vyzuonos – an agricultural camp or labor unit called the "Red Plantation" was located near the town of Vyzuonos in 1943.[102]
• Zasliai – Jewish labor camp run by Organization Todt (K, p. 485, 533).
• Zatrocze – agricultural/peat digging camp not far from Trakai (Troki), which is located some 20 km west of Vilna (K, p. 346, 447).
• Zezmer (Ziezmariai) – labor camp for road construction with at least 400 Jewish detainees in early May 1943. Located 50 km north-west of Kovno. The camp was technically affiliated with the Vilna Ghetto but received aid from the Kovno Ghetto Council (T, p. 162-163, 329). In early May 1943 the camp housed 1,200 Jews, "including 180 children and a number of old people", brought there from Oszmiana and other towns in the Vilna district; some of these were later transferred to Dno near Pskov, 680 others to the Kovno Ghetto (T, p. 328, 376). According to H. Kruk the camp housed 1,200 – 1,500 Jews (K, p. 554). It appears to have been at least formally run by Organization Todt (K, p. 533).
  Aside from the three major Lithuanian ghettos of Vilna (Vilnius), Kovno (Kaunas) and Schaulen (Siauliai) there existed a number of minor ghettos, many of them in the small part of northwestern Belarus which had been incorporated into Generalbezirk Litauen: Soly (T pp. 273-274, 486), Oszmiana (K p. 387), Michaliszki (K, p. 486), Smorgonie (reportedly there existed two ghettos in this town; K, p. 629, NL p. 666), Krewo (NL ibid), Ziezmariai (ibid.) and Nieswiez (ibid).

Many many camps, and I am sure that there are many camps which are not named, or which are purely temporary and have no names.

“In the Minsk Ghetto, 3,000 - 4,000 Jews now live. Next to the ghetto is another ghetto. In the first ghetto are Russian Jews from Minsk, Slutsk, Baranovitsh, etc. In the second, there are altogether 1,500 German and Czech Jews.”

Jews are being transported INTO ghettoes, and not just out of them, as you had previously claimed.

those who were ill were most often transferred to the Vilnius or Kaunas ghettos. From these ghettos, the camp received some aid - clothing, boots and other things.

Sick jews were not shot, they were in fact, transferred back into a ghetto, to recuperate. It seems the ghettoes and the camps had a revolving door, where jews went into camps from ghettoes and into ghettoes from camps.

“Yellin, the representative of Vievis camp, arrived here today. He comes to the Ghetto [in Kovno] once every two or three weeks to collect wooden shoes, underwear, and other supplies from our welfare department. The conditions in the Vievis labor camp are harsher than in the Ghetto. The housing conditions there endanger the health and lives of the inmates, the regime is strict, and the labor is back-breaking. The Vievis labor camp is under the supervision of the city governor of Vilna, who is a very cruel man. About four weeks ago, the camp workers feared that all the inmates would be exterminated after two Jewish youths had refused to obey the orders of the camp guards. Once in a while, patients from Vievis camp are admitted to out Ghetto hospital. The camp inmates also come here quite often to ask for help over some problem or other. We, for our part, extend them whatever assistance we can.”[132]

More evidence of a revolving door between the camps and ghettoes, and more evidence of mercy being shown to sick jews by the Germans.

Good link. Anyways, thank you for this info.

 

[Shidoen]

It didn't happen but it should happen again.