@Chugger this will be my last response for now, I am exhausted. I will make this more thorough than a usual post. Anyways, I respect your knowledge of history, even if I am making mean accusations about you.
You seem to be mistaken here, I did not change to a new topic, I addressed it in two separate posts
You didn't post any evidence of undocumented camps. I asked you to provide this earlier, and you didn't respond.
- [1943] "Over 14,000 Jews from Belgium and Holland arrived in Nazi-occupied Ochakov, in Kherson, to do slave labor, Geneva sources reported on April 29."
- Contemporary Jewish Record, vol. 6, no. 3 (June 1943), p. 300"
This is in Ukraine and I can find no records of an Ochakov concentration camp or ghetto, yet it is attested by neutral Swiss observers to exist in 1943.
- "The forced labor consisted in the construction of a narrow gauge railway. In November 1943 the number of inmates rose to 462. Bodmann [an SS camp physician] mentioned the high percentage of inmates ‘completely unable to work’ who were, however, to be reduced.[180] The 33 registered deaths in November were likely not due to natural causes. In December 1943 and January 1944 the number of inmates was slightly reduced, and Bodmann registered 10 and 14 deaths respectively. 437 prisoners from Soski were brought to Kuremäe in February 1944[181], something which raised the total number to 850.[182] On 8 and 6 February prisoners on the work sites were killed by Soviet artillery fire."
What is most interesting to me about this is that the camp existed until 1944, and also that it was very tiny, only 450-850 people. This shows that the jews weren't all concentrated in large camps of thousands of people, but were distributed over a wide area. It also shows that the Soviets did bomb these camps and kill the jews there inadvertantly.
- “Just received a message from Łódź. For us, Łódź is one of those cities from which you can obtain almost no information. Of course, the rumors from there are crazy and wild, and according to them, it is already certain that there are no Jews in Łódź\.
- Now I learn from two young people who were taken out of the Łódź Ghetto in March that Łódź has a ghetto. There is no shooting, and mass executions are unknown. The only thing is, people are taken off to work. They figure that about 10,000 Jews have recently been sent out of Łódź. Now the young people know what it is to be sent out to work. They are dragged around from place to place; they don’t know where they are or what they are doing. From time to time, groups are pulled out and disappear, and they assume that they are shot…
- Both of the young men escaped from such a group, and after a week of wandering, they were arrested in Vilna [and taken to] Łukiszki [a prison in Vilna] and were released from there only two days ago. Here in the ghetto they were clothed, and soon they will be sent to forest work.”[121]
Most people didn't even know Lodz had a ghetto, Germans were keeping jews very isolated from eachother (probably to prevent organized uprisings), but it was testified that there are no shootings or executions. People assumed to have been killed were really instead sent to do forest work, with no sinister intentions, only chopping down trees. There are no specific names for these logging/roadbuilding sites ever given.
- "In a small village, which before the occupation had constituted a kolkhoz, the camp [Trostinec] was located; to this belonged an estate of 250 hectares. Here the prisoners were also housed, first in pig sties, later in barracks which each housed 150 to 160 people. During 1942 a total of 39,000 Jews from Germany, Austria, Bohemia-Moravia, Luxembourg, Holland and also from the Soviet Union were brought to Trostinetz, but in the camp itself there were never more than 640 Jews at one time, most of them Jews from Vienna; among the inmates there were also some hundreds of Russian prisoners of war."
There were no gas chambers in this camp or crematoria, nor any witnesses to killings within the camps, only that new arrivals were driven out from the camp in trucks after arriving (similar to the above quote), it is almost certain therefore that it served as a transit zone for dispersing workers to smaller labor camps in the forests of the region
- The name “Koromej” is not to be found on any map of Eastern Europe. Distel was however referring to a real place. The location of “Koromej” can be identified with certainty thanks partially to Distel’s mention of other places, partially thanks to the testimony of a certain Miriam Reich, a Jewess from Kovno who on 26 October 1943 was deported to “Camp Kurame” in Estonia.
This is a woman here who was transited in late 1943, and also what is interesting is that there are translation difficulties which made it hard for the historian to figure out where they came from, and it is only by using the context of other things she said that this was pieced together. This seems to indicate that locations were given different names by different people depending on language.
- "Five Jews who risked their lives by escaping from a labor camp, where they had been employed at highway construction, arrived in the Ghetto, having traveled by various routes. The inmates of this labor camp had been transferred by road to Riga, and fifty Jews escaped during the transfer. As they jumped off the trucks, they were shot at. Two of the escapees waded into the [unnamed] river and remained hiding there, submerged in the water up to their necks. After the first danger passed, they entered the forest and hid there. Then they traveled by roundabout paths until they reached Kovno."
Security was lax, probably understaffed. There are LOTS of stories of jews escaping these camps. This probably indicates that the camps were undermanned by German guards.
- [1942] [Yehuda] Lerner: And so, it is there that everything started; for nearly a week, we traveled in these freight cars; each day we were given a little water through the door. After we were placed in the freight cars, they distributed to us a loaf of bread each, and soon we arrived in Belorussia and we were unloaded for work, the place where we arrived was located near an old airport.
Lanzmann: What was it called?
Lerner: The name of the place, I do not remember exactly [...]
Jew arrives in Belarus, taken to an unnamed place (or else simply was never told the name).
- https://holocamps.weebly.com/-waldlager.html
- Waldlager 5/6 used up virtually the entire forest known as Roter Steig and was rectangular. The size of the camp was 375 x 450 meters. For camouflage purposes, this specific site was chosen for the camp because of the tall tress that would provide excellent cover from Allied airplanes. Measures were taken with the barbed wire fence to prevent locals from seeing into the camp.
Camps in the woods were kept hidden, from soviet airplanes and from locals, for reasons of military security. People who approached one were shot.
- [May 1942] As a result of the pressure from the military authorities, the Jewish Councils in Lublin and Cracow districts have received orders to deliver able-bodied Jews for transportation to ‘unknown destinations.’ The first transports, which left this week, led to the tragic separation of many families, the report states, since it is almost certain that none of the deported Jews will ever return to their homes. In the meantime, the Jewish Councils, already overburdened with relief problems with which they are not able to cope because of the acute shortage of funds, are faced with the new problem of caring for the women and children whom the deported Jews left behind without any means of support.”
Once again, military matters are kept shrouded in secrecy. Here it is the able-bodied who were transported, (so you can't claim they were selected out to be killed), while the non-workers remained in the care of their neighbors.
- “Nazis in Holland plan to deport young Jews to Russia, others to Germany
LONDON, Sep. 3 (JTA) – Nazi authorities in Holland have issued an announcement stating that all Jews between 18 and 40 years of age will be deported to the devastated areas of occupied Russia, while all physically fit Jews between 40 and 60 years of age will be sent to Germany for forced labor after undergoing a physical examination.
The announcement, which reached Dutch government circles here today, warns non-Jewish doctors in Holland not to furnish medical certificates of disability to Jews between 40 and 60 who are sufficiently healthy to be sent for work in the Reich. The warning implies that doctors found guilty of issuing such disability certificates may themselves be sent to labor camps in Germany.”
More context as to how they were selected. It seems like most were sent to the front for labor near the front line (and once again, these are the fit ones so you can't say that they were selected for killing due to being nonworkers).
- The identification papers of the deported Jews are destroyed and their names stricken out; they are henceforth only designated by numbers. It is therefore hardly possible to keep up a correspondence.
Jews taken to the east are quite literally not given any identification papers whatsoever, so there goes the "Germans meticulously documented everything" claim. This is probably so that the soviets wouldn't be able to read their transit records and infer details about the German rail network. Upon arriving in the east, it became impossible to track down jews by name.
- Railroad facilities being overburdened, the Nazi authorities in Poland have instituted a system whereby the Jewish and Polish deportees must cover at least forty miles a day on foot.
Transport by foot, not using rails or trucks, was common, so this explains why some terminal seemed to be "end points" with no trains leaving.
- “200,000 More Jews herded into labor camps in Poland following new raids
ZURICH, Jun. 19 (JTA) – Mass raids on Jewish residences are reported today to be taking place throughout Nazi-held Poland for the purpose of rounding-up Jews and sending them to forced labor camps where they are compelled to work at difficult jobs under inhuman conditions.
The report says that more than 200,000 Polish Jews have recently been herded into thirty-seven ‘Jewish’ labor camps. Of them, twelve were opened only last week, including two in the Baranovici district, where the Jews are compelled to work at draining the Pinsk swamps.”
Swiss sources attest to jews being put to work in many camps, 12 of which opened in a week, and engaging in draining swamps.
- https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/himmler-orders-liquidation-of-ostland-ghettos-june-1943
- 1) I order that all Jews still remaining in ghettos in the Ostland area be collected in concentration camps.
- 2) I prohibit the withdrawal of Jews from concentration camps for [outside] work from August 1, 1943
- 3) A concentration camp is to be built near Riga to which will be transferred the entire manufacture of clothing and equipment now operated by the Wehrmacht outside. All private firms will be eliminated. The workshops are to be solely concentration camp workshops. The Chief of the SS Economic and Administrative Main Office is requested to see to it that there will be no shortfall in the production required by the Wehrmacht as the result of this reorganization.
- 4) Inmates of the Jewish ghettos who are not required are to be evacuated to the East.
- 5) As many male Jews as possible are to be taken to the concentration camp in the oil-shale area for the mining of oil-shale
Himmler specifically ordered that all the jews in liquidated ghettoes be placed into camps, and is very specific about the industries they are intended to work in. This tells us that "liquidate" doesn't mean kill, it just means moved to camp from a ghetto, for forced labor. He says literally "all jews [...] be collected inconcentration camps", as the first bullet, then specifies that they be sent eastward if they cannot be put to use. I have given an example of a camp or ghetto in or near Ochakov, which doesn't appear to be documented anywhere, and of people being transported to Trostinetz, after arrival, they are driven out on trucks. I have also posted of a female jew, Miriam Reich, who had been sent to do labor (so women weren't mass-executed). And I have provided the testimony of 200,000 Polish jews being put to work draining Belarussian swamps.
codoh.com
And so on, this illustrates the existence of camps in the east, settled in 1942 and 1943, and also that
1) places existed which we now cannot find evidence for other than in testimony
2) jews often had trouble describing their location, using names
3) jews believed to have been killed, were really just doing forestry in unnamed camps
4) jews were stripped of their papers upon arriving east
5) jewish camps were kept top secret
6) infrastructure was crap and people had to walk on foot very often
7) Large engineering projects, like draining swamps, were underway
12 camps could spring up in a week within a location
Etc. etc. etc. I would also like to point out that many of these quotes are only circulated and publicized because they contain anti-German propaganda value. So it is only by cross-examining witnesses AGAINST Germany, that we can see contradictions in the story, because benevolent references to Germany are very rarely republished, as they serve no political purpose.
I also made an
entire post comparing the extensive documentation and witness evidence of less than 100k German Jews being moved into Russia in 1941, to the virtually zero evidence for 20x more Polish Jews being moved there in 1942. The suggestion that they simply would not keep this kind of records is not supported.
There is also a massive difference in the needs of the time period. In 1941, the Germans thought victory was guaranteed, and wanted everything they did to be fine and professional, while in 1942 and 1943, the situation had changed and they were becoming more pragmatic. It was said even that jews arriving in the east had their papers destroyed, probably so that the soviets wouldn't be able to read transit records and infer details about the German rail network.
To this you also did not respond. Honestly, that's ok because there's a lot to talk about and we can always circle back to things. I'm a patient guy, and do give you credit for your research here. This stuff is tough because there's not a lot of revisionist writing on the subject.
For sure there is a difference between internment camps and hard labor camps like the ones you listed.
Anyway it's obvious from sources like Goebbels diaries that most of the Jews being moved into the east (err liquidated/subjected to a "barbaric" yet inconspicuous procedure) were gonna be non-working.
View attachment 2784246
As illustrated in the previous post regarding Ostland, "liquidation" really just means transferred from a ghetto to a camp (or perhaps to a more easterly ghetto). Is it "barbaric" or "ruthless" to place people on trains and send them far away from their homes? Goebbels seems to think so:
- "I have once again talked over the Jewish question with the Fuhrer. His position on this problem is merciless. He wants to force the Jews right out of Europe. At this moment Himmler is handling the major transfer of Jews from the German cities into the eastern ghettoes."
- -Goebbels
This is a diary entry that occurs at a later date, where Goebbels elaborates on just what is going on. So the "barbaric procedure" that Goebbels describes, is really just forcing the jews out of Europe.
Goebbels is also... a bit of a radical and a loose cannon, as we saw with Krystalnacht (which Goebbels organized), his actions actually angered the other party members.
“He
[Hess, Hitler's right hand at the time] had personally issued a circular telegram to all the gauleiters in November 1938 halting the outrages of the Kristallnacht.”
[27]
So whatever Goebbels says, remember that his perspectives are those of probably the single most radical pro-war, anti-jew NSDAP party member.
It's clear that the 40% to be put to work were also not exclusively going into the East. Rather they were sent to camps in Poland like Auschwitz, Majdanek, Stutthoff and many others. Indeed, there is record of only relatively small amount of Jews posted in labor camps in Occupied USSR territories
This seems to be to keep the camps secret from the soviets.
In Lithuania there might be enough to account for 1/3 or 1/4 of the pre-war Jewish population, but in other areas like Belarus and Ukraine there's not.
Here's our good friend Eduard Strauch (remember the "pits" at the "resettlement site"?) talking about the need to reduce amount of working Jews in Belarus, in spring 1943, a time by which according to revisionists 1.5 million Polish Jews had been rapidly moved into Russia. Even 22,000 was too much.
View attachment 2783765
Here he is clearly talking about economic enterprises. He wants to remove the jews from paid jobs, and put them into hard labor.
In fact, here he specifically says, the Germans saved the jews from being murdered by the Belarussians, and gave the jews comfy jobs, which they are now so integral to, that it is difficult to get rid of them from the economy.
"At a time when the Bielorussians wanted to murder the Jews, the Wehrmacht cultivated them."
In the Ukraine in 1943 we hear references like this--almost no Jews to be seen, they too were liquidated (moved out of the Ukraine, to where, and what of the Polish Jews?)
View attachment 2783660
They only saw 4 jews because they were moved out of public life into ghettoes or camps.
Once again, this is a commentary on the economic destruction of moving the jews out of the cities
So my unanswered question to you for references concerning your "camps of TENS OF THOUSANDS being left off of every map" is absolutely fair.
- [1943] "Over 14,000 Jews from Belgium and Holland arrived in Nazi-occupied Ochakov, in Kherson, to do slave labor, Geneva sources reported on April 29."
- Contemporary Jewish Record, vol. 6, no. 3 (June 1943), p. 300"
- “200,000 More Jews herded into labor camps in Poland following new raids
ZURICH, Jun. 19 (JTA) – Mass raids on Jewish residences are reported today to be taking place throughout Nazi-held Poland for the purpose of rounding-up Jews and sending them to forced labor camps where they are compelled to work at difficult jobs under inhuman conditions.
The report says that more than 200,000 Polish Jews have recently been herded into thirty-seven ‘Jewish’ labor camps. Of them, twelve were opened only last week, including two in the Baranovici district, where the Jews are compelled to work at draining the Pinsk swamps.”
Pinsk is in Reichskommissariat Ukraine
I pointed out presence of ash layers in almost all of the 30 something swimming pool sized graves they found, high proportion of ash to sand noted in the core sample illustrations (up to 50% according to Mattogno). The lack of bone remains is hardly surprising given that the literature says they were separated using sieves to be destroyed, and in fact demonstrates that the Nazis were trying to conceal or obscure the amount of bodies they were destroying.
The pits were mostly filled with random garbage from the camp, were dug up by Poles and Soviets, which massively expanded their sizes, which diluted the contents, and there were never any mentions of what industries the camp had (probably armaments) so this means furnaces used for casting bullets and so on, which would produce industrial residue. Unfortunately, the site was contaminated for "artistic" reasons, without the ashes ever having been analyzed to determine whether they were human remains, and how badly mixed in with the dirt they were.
There is also the absolute insanity of killing, cremating, bone-hiding, and burying something like 2500 jews in a single day... with a guard staff of only 50ish people and minimal permanent crematory facilities. Like even if there were 500 coerced jewish workers there, could they not have organized some sort of jailbreak? It strains the mind to think of a train of 1500 jews coming in, and being herded by some 25 people while the other 25 people herded 500 jewish workers who were cremating thousands of bodies in pits in the ground in plain sight of the 1500 jews who just arrived. And somehow these handful of guards kept thousands of people calm and organized as they marched them into the death chamber.
