Emperor Julian
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I havnt bothered looking into the logistics of roman road building ergo it didn't happen because someone online said it didn't.
The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers
- Thread starter RichardMongler
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I havnt bothered looking into the logistics of roman road building ergo it didn't happen because someone online said it didn't.
Bonesjones
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I'll live debate anyone, but I won't answer simple questions. I mean who needs actual evidence, Ive got a piece of paper that says over 9000 jews saw it happened.
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I'm literally only responding to the things you say, point by point. I only bring up Mattogno and Kues because you yourself brought them up, and now you're getting mad at me for quoting the very sources you yourself had posted?
I've posted this already, about labor camps in the Baltics. It's literally just yesterday or the day before when I posted them, like 2 or 3 pages back in this thread.
We've been over several of these already. The weakest piece of holocaust evidence, I think, is that the Posen speeches were testified by Irving (in court) to have been tampered with. He also remarked on how easy it would be to splice a tape to change a voice recording, and there are evidences of this as well judging by the sound. This is probably one of the most widely-cited, and also most blatantly forged, pieces of evidence, which just goes further to throw the entire holocaust narrative into doubt.
I mean, we were already discussing the gas vans.... so...
So anyways, question 1: how many gas vans existed in total?
question 2: Why is there not a single captured or surviving gas van in existence?
question 3: Memo of Willy Just of 5 June 1942 on "ninety-seven thousand have been processed using three vans" Not going to be too autistic about numbers here, but the document you cited alleges that a single gas van can kill an average of ~193 people in a single day, every day, with no breaks, for months on end, even in winter, rain or shine, with no bureaucratic or maintenance delays. (Or in other words, 1 van is alleged to be able to kill well over 200 people/day if you factor in the fact that realistically, the vehicle will have off-days).
During Manstein's trial, Manstein was accused of being complicit in a massacre of 10,000-12,000 jews, which, on cross-examination of witnesses, was determined to have happened in a single day. The unit that carried out the massacre, was equipped with only ~100 soldiers and ~10 trucks. Manstein argued (successfully, he was acquitted of this charge, if I recall correctly) that it was impossible for this tiny unit with a small amount of vehicles to execute so many people. He said that in the Russian winter, days were short, and for various reasons, something like this wouldn't be carried out in darkness; and just one round of executions would also take a considerable part of the day, due to the time it takes to round up prisoners (identifying prisoners, dealing with prisoners who were rebellious or who wanted to waste time gathering their belongings, etc.). Manstein argued that it wouldn't have been typically possible to execute more than 300 prisoners in a single day with that unit. So that's 30 executions per day per Opel Blitz in winter. The gas vans are supposed to be modified Opel Blitz, so there is a direct comparison here. Ignoring the driver and the front passenger seat (which would be used for the guards), a Blitz is typically used to carry 10 people in the back, shoulder-to-shoulder. So you basically couldn't make more than ~3 trips/day between the place where you are rounding up the prisoners, and a typical execution site/mass grave.
Are executions by gas vans any more efficient? Well no... The gas vans did not make this process any faster, their alleged purpose wasn't to speed up the round-up of prisoners, or the transportation of the bodies, but only to make the execution less stressful for the executioner. So, since the Germans were said to have carried out gas van executions under the guise of resettlement, and are alleged to have had top-secret corpse disposal sites, they would need to drop off the body some distance away from the round-up site, under poor road conditions. So the additional need for secrecy, would only make the gas vans LESS efficient, if anything.
So, that's during winter, during summer, who knows how many you could manage in a day. Maybe 2 times that due to longer days and better road conditions, but it is still less than half of the claimed numbers.
I think there's a misunderstanding here. Can you define what you mean specifically by "resettlement" because to me, "resettlement" means transportation from a village to a ghetto, or from a ghetto to a camp, or from a camp to another camp, anywhere in Poland, Belarus, Ukraine, the Baltics, or otherwise. If you are saying 2 million were resettled in this manner, then I believe it completely.
If you are saying that 2 million were transported into heartland Russia, east of Belarus, by train, then disappeared without a trace, then I am saying that sounds extremely suspicious and I would contest any documents that claim this.
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Found this quote. This shows settlement of jews in Ukraine from the west. So now we have evidence of settlement in the Baltics, Ukraine, and Belarus.
A little slowpoke, since we're not talking about this any more but here's a man who was transferred OUT of Belzec, which was supposed to be an extermination camp. I can actually find several people who have been transferred out of Belzec, but don't want to clutter up the thread by posting each of them.Abram Baran
Belzec I (Poland : Concentration Camp)
Majdanek (Poland : Concentration Camp)
Cieszanów (Poland : Concentration Camp)
Buchenwald (Germany : Concentration Camp)
Jawischowitz (Poland : Concentration Camp)
Auschwitz (Poland : Concentration Camp)(generic)
Where the hell are all these jews coming from? I thought they were supposed to have been genocided.
ARMY SEES INFLUX OF 3,000,000 JEWS; Tells Newspaper Executives in Ger…
archived 13 Feb 2019 00:10:50 UTCarchive.md
ARMY SEES INFLUX OF 3,000,000 JEWS; Tells Newspaper Executives in Germany That Refugees Have Created Grave Problem
A version of this archives appears in print on June 24, 1946, on Page 12 of the New York edition with the headline: ARMY SEES INFLUX OF 3,000,000 JEWS; Tells Newspaper Executives in Germany That Refugees Have Created Grave Problem
So what's your best evidence for resettlement of millions people in USSR?
I don't see how the existence of small labor camps scattered throughout USSR territory suffices. We know the Nazis didn't kill all Jews, they put some to work. It's another question (that you no doubt find deeply uncomfortable) about the fate of sick Jews, or children, or the aged, or deeply malnourished. Is there any evidence, whether witness or documentary, of a single camp in USSR where children were sent? As an example of what this might look like you could use the camp Theresienstadt, in Czechoslovakia
The only large camp in the list of "Lithuanian labor camps" is based on an estimate by witness Reska Weiss that Kues does not even have the courtesy to quote (also he seems to list it twice in two different locations?). Also if this camp was mainly populated during 1944, where were all those Jews in 43 and earlier?
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Ok it seems you want to talk about the Just Memo
Question 1: Before you intimated the belief was there was thousands, but actually it's something like 20.
Question 2: They destroyed or converted these vans once they had accomplished their primary purpose, or were supplanted by better methods (stationary gas chambers)
Question 3: These vans were likely used at Chelmno (indicated as Kulmhof in the document) which had a steady supply of Jews being sent there. A gas van could fit 10 people per square meter, and the large ones could hold up to 100 people, and the smaller 50. Assuming they used 2 large vans and 1 small at 80% capacity this comes to 200 people per trip. So if they each did 4 trips per day that comes to 800 x 180 people over 6 months, or 144,000. Assuming they were operational 75% of the time that number drops to 108,000.
I don't see how the existence of small labor camps scattered throughout USSR territory suffices. We know the Nazis didn't kill all Jews, they put some to work. It's another question (that you no doubt find deeply uncomfortable) about the fate of sick Jews, or children, or the aged, or deeply malnourished. Is there any evidence, whether witness or documentary, of a single camp in USSR where children were sent? As an example of what this might look like you could use the camp Theresienstadt, in Czechoslovakia
The only large camp in the list of "Lithuanian labor camps" is based on an estimate by witness Reska Weiss that Kues does not even have the courtesy to quote (also he seems to list it twice in two different locations?). Also if this camp was mainly populated during 1944, where were all those Jews in 43 and earlier?
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Ok it seems you want to talk about the Just Memo
Question 1: Before you intimated the belief was there was thousands, but actually it's something like 20.
Question 2: They destroyed or converted these vans once they had accomplished their primary purpose, or were supplanted by better methods (stationary gas chambers)
Question 3: These vans were likely used at Chelmno (indicated as Kulmhof in the document) which had a steady supply of Jews being sent there. A gas van could fit 10 people per square meter, and the large ones could hold up to 100 people, and the smaller 50. Assuming they used 2 large vans and 1 small at 80% capacity this comes to 200 people per trip. So if they each did 4 trips per day that comes to 800 x 180 people over 6 months, or 144,000. Assuming they were operational 75% of the time that number drops to 108,000.
Regarding the Posen speeches, does Irving believe the section in question was fabricated by Allies?
Cuz he said this about it lol "Unlikely"
Another denier fail, you've got to get off metapedia my man.
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No response to the new york times article? That seems like no small thing.
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He also said to throw out this document from court because it is inadmissable, and he was very strong on that point. Irving hardline accusing it of being an outright forgery (which is what he was doing in a roundabout way) would mean putting the entire government on trial which is out of scope for what he was trying to accomplish.Regarding the Posen speeches, does Irving believe the section in question was fabricated by Allies?
Cuz he said this about it lol "Unlikely"
View attachment 2773048
Another denier fail, you've got to get off metapedia my man.
I have established that there are many undocumented camps. The documentation gets even worse the further east you go, with camps of TENS OF THOUSANDS being left off of every map, and only heard of in passing references in the most obscure of sources.
I can conjecture why there are such scant references to these settlement sites:
-Because they are generally uninteresting and nobody bothered to document the myriad of anodyne statements from the people settled there
-Because the official records are buried under millions of other banal captured German documents
-Because they were under the control of the local governor and standards were more lax in the east for recordkeeping, compared to the heartland of the Reich
-Because the records were destroyed as the wehrmacht retreated, to avoid giving away intel
-Because they were firmly in the core territory of the USSR, which suppressed documentation of them
-etc.
You are massively shifting goalposts here. You said that all the people sent east disappeared, no witnesses, no documents, therefore they must have been killed. I suggested the records were spotty and that the jews were distributed across a wide area. You insisted that this was outright impossible, that there was not a single witness or a single settlement site, and even if records were spotty, I would at least be able to find some mention of something, but not a single such site was ever found to have existed.
Well you lied to me man.
20...............
20 gas vans..........
These gas vans, which were present at every massacre, in every major camp, which were in every single mention of the holocaust, which are such a core part of the story, which seem to be ubiquitous......
There were only 20 of them? So they are in fact such a minor footnote that, they can't realistically be held as a major piece of the story.
Well if there are only 20, this is not so unreasonable, but at the same time, if there are only 20 then how could they be everywhere at once?
How do you propose to fit 50 people on a truck like the one in pic related?
Thanks for the shorter post
120 sq ft = 11.14 square meters so this truck could fit 110 people based on Just's estimate of 10 per square meter.
Which government?
Well let's examine these passing references. I have no idea what you're talking about.
No. I said that for me to believe in something, there should be witness, documentary, or physical evidence of it. And that there's virtually nothing for mass resettlement, so why should I believe it happened? And yeah, I believe I almost always used the word "resettlement" which refers to something other than people being deported purely for slave labor. Eg you wouldn't say people were resettled in a gulag
Who said this? lol . Sure they moved around a lot, kind of being loaned between different groups. But most Jews in the East for sure were simply shot.
120 sq ft = 11.14 square meters so this truck could fit 110 people based on Just's estimate of 10 per square meter.
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You're joking right now aren't you? I'm having trouble imagining you are serious. You think they fit 110 people into gasvans like this?
Have you ever done the beetle challenge when you were a teenager? Where you try to fit as many people as you can into a beetle or other small car?
Bonesjones
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Notice how none of those documents specify which chassis these gas vans are built on, so we'd know exactly how big they were and what they were capable of. For a people so dedicated to efficiency and documentation, they sure did leave glaring holes when it comes to the holocaust. The holocaust controversy site also has a listing of Jews being shot then gassed, which is redundant unless they mean they were disinfecting the corpses/clothing which would mean they weren't death vans.
It is known that (mostly during 41) German and Austrian Jews were actually sent into Russia to be "resettled".
According to Kues 100,000 (though probably much less, closer to 50k)
These are frequently mentioned in the records, in witness statements, etc.
As an example of this, one can look through my list of "interesting" holocaust evidence https://kiwifarms.net/threads/the-holocaust-thread.68380/post-10619019
Looking through this list, German/Austrian Jews are mentioned in nearly all SS police related documents I brought up
eg Kube's report:
They also feature in secretly recorded conversations taped before the end of the war, eg this one I mentioned http://www.fpp.co.uk/Auschwitz/docs/Bruns/CSDICb.html
In terms of regular documentation (not concerning them getting killed) we can see transport records with precise locations, where they were kept and for how long, new camps built to hold them, deliberation on what to do with them. Such accounts feature heavily in Mattogno's Einsatzgruppen book, but the argument ends up hurting his case.
So the notion that (as per Kues and Mattogno) 1.5 million Polish Jews, 15-30 times more than came from Germany, would be resettled in USSR and this would out of happenstance be so rarely mentioned that no documents or testimony can be found is laughable.
Rather you need a carefully orchestrated conspiracy, involving millions of people and long term coordinated efforts by Soviet and US/Britain, which there is no evidence of.
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Yeah this is an interesting article, couldn't read the body of it, but found this
So the officers involved may have not been fully informed about the Holocaust (fair enough, because it was more or less swallowed up in other events like the end of the war, wide range of Nazi crimes) and were expecting these Jews to show up.
It's also possible they were trying to drum up resources.
In any case this is also evidence there was no concerted plan to cover up the genocide, otherwise US government forces wouldn't be briefing reporters about this shit.
Again, Just said 10 people per square meter and I gave an example of a real world truck of similar size that would fit 110 based on this spec
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How do you get 10 people to stand in a square meter? Even with pressure from each side, this isn't realistic. Try it out (with non-americans, hard to fit even two americans in that space I presume).
Okay, wow. You were serious.
So this is just a simple test anyone could empirically perform to realize that the numbers you're giving are nonsense. Anyone can draw a square of meter wide each side and try to get 10 people to stand in it. 10 Children would work, I suppose.
You should look into the experiments (with photographic evidence) of Charles Provan, former Holocaust denier who fit 8 people into 441 square inches, or . 3 square meters
It's also clear that such densities are not unheard of in non-genocidal vehicles
It all checks out.
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This is how they get so many per wagon in mumbai.
But how to gas the ones that are on the roof?
Again, it's just a simple thing to try for people themselves and think about how realistic it is to fill a van in that way.
Your skepticism here is entirely unfounded, and should indicate to you presence of strong internal biases
google "10 people per square meter" and you will find such densities are not uncommon, eg in concerts
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I found a picture of 10 people in a square meter. I don't think this proves the gas vans are realistically capable of holding 100 people......
This is 100 people
Thread theme song:
At 6 people per square meter, a crowd density is considered so high that the crowd "acts as a liquid" and individual people are no longer in control of their actions due to the pressure exerted on them by other members of the crowd pressing into them involuntarily. This is called a crowd crush.
So how the fuck did the Germans pack 100 jews into a small vehicle when presumably, the people inside are being crushed and panicking and pushing back. Can a few guards really push against the crowd weight of 100 people to pack them in like sardines as the crowd is pushing back? Are the German ubermensch stories real? Can 2 guards outmuscle 100 jews?
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Realisitically when a gun is pointed at your head, you'll try and do it yourself, no need for muscles. But that doesn't mean it fits.
Marley Rathbone
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