Off-Topic Losing people to transgenderism support thread - Support group for trans widows and other people who lost loved ones to troonism

[Bad Take Crucifier]

So here I am back at the start saying I don't know where to go from here. I'm venting. None of it makes sense to me.

The point is that it doesn't actually matter if you are in the right and she is in the wrong, because if it mattered she would not be doing this. You have to get her to trust you by finding alternative ways to rebuild the relationship so that she becomes open to trusting you in the future.

 

[Bob jensen]

Crap the quote ain't working now. @Lemmingwise I appreciate what you say. I suggested a "covert plan" out of desperation. Where do you go when you think you've tried everything?

 

[Lemmingwise]

Sorry for double posting but... I threw her out after 9 months of suggesting "get a job, go to school, learn a trade, etc"...

She told my youngest that if she believed *anything" I or my mother say, that she will disown her for being a Nazi. I drew the line. Told her to leave. You want to live in my home, drive my car, eat my food, have everything provided to you, and claim the provider is evil?

Go then.

9 months of being a neet and undermining your relationship to the youngest. I can see why its reasonable to stand by it. From a relationship standpoint my worry is: how did your youngest interpret this event?

It seems like it could as easily be taken as fuel for the idea that you are an evil nazi from a kid's viewpoint.

Crap the quote ain't working now. @Lemmingwise I appreciate what you say. I suggested a "covert plan" out of desperation. Where do you go when you think you've tried everything?

Yeah, that happens for big posts sometimes. Understand that I'm not saying it to judge you. I am putting myself in your daughter's shoes and seeing how things might look from there.

The truth is that it's possible that there is nothing you can do to change things. After you throw your kid out, you lose both authority and leverage. I think you should try and nothing is ever certain.

Again relinquish the idea of fixing this quickly and focus instead in healing the relationship.

Perhaps a bit out of left field, but the book combatting cult mind control (I think the writer was steven hassan) could be useful. It's more about small scientology-like cults, but there are stories of cult deprogramming in there that can be useful. In their case it required literal kidnapping and detaining against will for days to wean them off cult control. But it may give insights overall.

For example, one notable things cults do that's an effective brainwashing technique is give you a new name/identity.

One of the reasons transgender insanity is effective compared to the asian cults described in the book, is that everyone is forced to participate in acknowledging the new identity. For your daughter to wean herself off, people would have to start treating her by her old identity. But the ideology resists this vehemently.

I don't have all the answers, but at its core is the rebuilding of relationship and it seems to me worthwhile to think about the things she enjoya doing with you/the family and see if these can be used to rebuild the relationship.

And that also requires introspection. Considering you now use "yeah I lied to her, but I was desperate", is itself a form of responsibility avoiding excuse and casting yourself as a victim. Again, if you don't heal this shortcoming in yourself, your children will notice subconsciously and are likely to copy, or at least less likely take you seriously.

 

[Aunt Carol]

Why don't you have a relationship where you make a plan with her, together, on how to use less internet? Why did you suggest something that had a covert plan to reduce her internet usage?

No matter how straightforward Bob is, there's always going to be the emotional weight that comes from the relationship between mother and daughter. Her daughter's instinct will be to get defensive; she's having a rough time of it, no matter how much was self-caused.

You're right that she should be honest, but she can't come out and say "you need to get out of the house and meet some people who aren't troons." Her daughter is not going to react with a calm and logical rebuttal.

Reducing Internet use, going to bed earlier: they risk coming across as threats, especially more than one in a conversation. Especially since they have that history of the daughter being "thrown out" before. Even without that incident, online troon groups have her daughter primed to face oppression from her "abusive home."

I don't think Bob should lie, just pick her battles. Apologize for her part in the last escalation, as part of reassuring her daughter that this isn't an immediate ultimatum. Whether or not she stays "trans," the daughter does need to find some kind of work; that's a fact of life. That's something that can be worked on practically and visibly. Mom is an evil cis and discussing gender right now is going to make things worse, but finding work is an external problem you can both be on the same side about.

Not as related: it's really easy to be "looking for work" and also not submit any applications in a week, but still fully believe you're "looking for work." Having a deadline might be helpful, especially since it's not a deadline, it's just "when we go to Plan B," whether Plan B is CNA class or Americorps or holding your nose and applying to Walmart.

 

[Local Fed]

So tell me, child: Why are you so angry?

I read this in Patrick Tomlinson's voice

 

[Bob jensen]

Maybe I'm taking this all too seriously. Maybe waking up my daughter to see if she's still alive is ridiculous. Maybe I'm the lolcow here.

 

[Aunt Carol]

Maybe I'm taking this all too seriously. Maybe waking up my daughter to see if she's still alive is ridiculous. Maybe I'm the lolcow here.

Take a break for tonight; this is some raw personal stuff, and you don't owe us anything. Let the kid sleep, and hug the other ones if they're awake.

 

[Bob jensen]

@Aunt Carol .. theatapists advised her to move to a group
Home where she could transition without me. She outright said no. I need to be with my family. I saw that as hope?

Take a break for tonight; this is some raw personal stuff, and you don't owe us anything. Let the kid sleep, and hug the other ones if they're awake.

Will do.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Maybe I'm taking this all too seriously. Maybe waking up my daughter to see if she's still alive is ridiculous. Maybe I'm the lolcow here.

No, this is definitely the stuff you want to take seriously. Nothing ridiculous about that. Best wishes.

You have literally 60 years of academic work (john money and others) that led to this point, with half of mainstream media, hollywood, gender studies and other well funded organisations lined up against you in the war over your kid's mind.

What is ridiculous is that you even need to have this fight, and that they want to convince everyone that you're bad for fighting it, but that's what it is. My heart is with you. This shit ain't easy.

Also my last post wasnt finished, so you may have read it when it was still being written. A bad habit. You might want to reread it.

 

[Rod Sterling]

@Aunt Carol .. theatapists advised her to move to a group
Home where she could transition without me. She outright said no. I need to be with my family. I saw that as hope?

I'm going to jump in and say no matter how strained, it really takes a lot to willingly detach from family, nobody ever wants that. She clearly doesn't want that from her answer but because of her saying no, i don't doubt that being kicked out helped reinforce her perspective.

I think the best thing to do is to put your personal feelings aside for a moment and rebuild common ground. I am very far from being a parent and hardly far from your daughter's age, but I understand at least that you can't really get anywhere with a 'who is right, who is wrong'. I think the biggest thing you can do is apologize for kicking her out, no matter how justified you felt it was. An apology that doesn't bring up how you felt, but affirms that she does have a right to be upset over it. From there maybe you can lay a common ground, reason with her that you too are a human like her, and no human being can understand everything. Tell her how you're not a part of her generation, that you want her perspective on why she feels as she does. Don't ask about why she thinks she's trans per se, but more so why she feels like the family doesn't understand her. If she willingly answers that, ask her to help you understand.

Sure it's not really want you'd want to talk about, but you have to gain trust back in order for her to respect your opinions. It's going to be a slow process no matter what, but the key element is patience and with lack of a better term, grinning and bearing it. Who knows, maybe if you don't have much reaction she'll get bored of the idea. Or maybe if she trusts you, she might talk about her online groups, maybe it will explain something indirectly. In the end, it's hard to control anyone at 20, the best you can do job wise is maybe send her job links or pick up applications (if they have any old school paper applications) from stores that you stop into.

Give her what space you can, you also have to trust in her enough to believe she won't do anything super irrational. It's going to be hard but building trust without making it a two way street is just not possible. It's not easy treading in through dark waters when you don't know what's waiting below, I applaud you for making attempts at seeing various perspectives. I believe you can make it work, i think you need to also give yourself the confidence that you're trying to learn. It's more than what most parents do.

 

[snake aids]

Little update on my ex. I messaged him today to ask him to please cancel something we were meant to go to together or book it at another location because I couldn't stand thinking of seeing him in person ever again. After that, I was just asking how life is going, general small talk, and it doesn't sound good. He's being medicated for his mental health issues which is good but he's also lost a significant amount of weight. He has a BMI of 16. I might not like what he has done (break up with me after many years, troon out, etc.) but I don't want him to die of starvation. I think he is actually going to die. He already had issues with not eating enough but he has never lost this much weight. I think he's lost almost 20kg since I last saw him. He trooned out and now he's withering away. It is incredibly painful watching someone I loved so much decline so quickly.

 

[Bad Take Crucifier]

He's also lost a significant amount of weight. He has a BMI of 16. I might not like what he has done (break up with me after many years, troon out, etc.) but I don't want him to die of starvation. I think he is actually going to die.

Has body dysphoria, develops anorexia to cope. Many such cases.

 

[taco freak]

Little update on my ex. I messaged him today to ask him to please cancel something we were meant to go to together or book it at another location because I couldn't stand thinking of seeing him in person ever again. After that, I was just asking how life is going, general small talk, and it doesn't sound good. He's being medicated for his mental health issues which is good but he's also lost a significant amount of weight. He has a BMI of 16. I might not like what he has done (break up with me after many years, troon out, etc.) but I don't want him to die of starvation. I think he is actually going to die. He already had issues with not eating enough but he has never lost this much weight. I think he's lost almost 20kg since I last saw him. He trooned out and now he's withering away. It is incredibly painful watching someone I loved so much decline so quickly.

Watching someone potentially commit passive suicide is one of the hardest things any person can go through. I feel for you, and send internet hugs, thin and insufficient though they may be in the face of pain like this.

Thanks to @Rod Serling, @Aunt Carol and others who posted - short on time rn, can't go back and tag/reply to each individual and not sure if tagging is working on my mobile rn - I think your advice is on point, and I also received personal benefit from contemplating your words to others. To the person who pointed out how my friend was installing those barbs with words to hurt for a long time, you are correct about that, which is why my thought process goes: remembering that shit thing she said --> remember that's not how the situation actually happened --> remember that's not exactly my actual friend anymore and I need to let go --> sigh deeply, silently wish that we both heal, and turn my mind away from the topic. Every time I think about it, I hurt less. That's why this perspective we share in this thread is important: understanding begets acceptance (at least of the situation, even if we don't accept the ideology or its widespread negative effects) which begets compassion which begets compassionate detachment which begets personal inner peace with the issue. Which is what we desperately fucking need, cause this shit is crazy.

@Bob jensen : I think your heart is in the right place and I do think it's a good sign your daughter still wants to be with her family. I agree with other posters that if you can be someone she trusts, and acknowledge your own failings in your dealings with her, that may hit the honest part of her heart and allow her to open up to you.

However, personal boundaries are important - I feel from your other responses that you got emotional when your personal boundaries were crossed unexpectedly. Look into NVC non violent communication as a means of standing your ground on your boundaries (respect our family, not poisoning the sibling, getting a job, etc) while also communicating to the other person that you are a safe place.

Paradoxically, your daughter most likely craves structure in her rebellion, I'm a generation beyond her and I'm terrified to think what it would be like to grow up now, with the world's horror and volatility. If you can provide a stable, calm, safe place where cause and effect are still linked and conversations happen in a rational manner, then ideally whatever is still healthy in her mind will gravitate to that and away from the confusing, predatory, incendiary language and emotion of transness.

It looks like she was expecting you to put up a fight, which is probably why she announced her transness the way she did. If you can gently break that negative expectation by showing yourself to be strong in your honesty and vulnerability (a true test of spirit but a worthy trait to have for life), then you will also be providing something that is a necessary antidote to the poisoned idea of woman that exists in this ideology.

(by vulnerability, I don't mean weakness, but the openness to one's soft underbelly that comes with any love we have for another. It's difficult to love someone when they're hurting you - if you can know what lines cannot be crossed, and where your limits are with that, you can love your daughter as deeply as you can in the space up to those limits with less fear clouding your actions and words, and hopefully a greater chance of her reaching to you of her own accord.)

Edit: wow somehow I hit reply instead of edit. Do they give out KF drivers licenses?? Not sure I can read well enough to drive on here yet. Sorry!!

 

[Porthos]

A while back I posted about my best friend from when we were still kids at school. She's a very vocal trans activist now and all her social media pages just focus on the fact that shes a nonbinary queer trans who wants to protect trans kids and thinks Ellen Page is a role model for cutting her breasts off. I've barely talked to her in the past years, but we've politely texted a few times. Now she wants to meet up with me, says she misses me. I still think that deep down she is a good, gentle and sensitive young woman, but she has been groomed into the trans thing so deeply that now she is actively platforming for more vulnerable young girls and boys (like her!) to be harmed.

I don't know if I should just ghost her. I can smile and nod at other random troonery I encounter in online circles or IRL, but I'm not sure if I could pretend to honestly support her new identity. Actually I'm kind of concerned that I will snap and tell her that I think that transgenderism is very harmful to her face - and I do not want to suffer the social consequences this entails, because while I'm pretty much a nobody she has a big platform and partial influence in our circles.

I really miss my friend. We went through some hard times together. I don't know if that is enough to get me to meet up with this person she has become though.

 

[taco freak]

A while back I posted about my best friend from when we were still kids at school. She's a very vocal trans activist now and all her social media pages just focus on the fact that shes a nonbinary queer trans who wants to protect trans kids and thinks Ellen Page is a role model for cutting her breasts off. I've barely talked to her in the past years, but we've politely texted a few times. Now she wants to meet up with me, says she misses me. I still think that deep down she is a good, gentle and sensitive young woman, but she has been groomed into the trans thing so deeply that now she is actively platforming for more vulnerable young girls and boys (like her!) to be harmed.

I don't know if I should just ghost her. I can smile and nod at other random troonery I encounter in online circles or IRL, but I'm not sure if I could pretend to honestly support her new identity. Actually I'm kind of concerned that I will snap and tell her that I think that transgenderism is very harmful to her face - and I do not want to suffer the social consequences this entails, because while I'm pretty much a nobody she has a big platform and partial influence in our circles.

I really miss my friend. We went through some hard times together. I don't know if that is enough to get me to meet up with this person she has become though.

Porthos is on kiwifarms...all my dreams come true!

I could have written this post at one point in time... I feel for you. If you would like any unsolicited advice, maybe only go meet her if you feel really grounded and resilient to whatever insanity might come up. But it's also ok if you don't feel like you can be friends anymore. The lack of nuance and balance in people like that is hard for healthy people to deal with, it makes everything a conflict and an exaggeration. Just depends on how far in the shit your friend is, I guess?

 

[Bob jensen]

Also my last post wasnt finished, so you may have read it when it was still being written. A bad habit. You might want to reread it.

Is there a way to tell if a post is in progess? ( I don't actually know)


(Mod edit from double post. 20 minutes later
I took some time to calm down. I am frustrated, confused, upset. I apologize for getting a bit out of hand.

And thank heavens for the Elusive Earl thread ! Top notch comedic relief!!

 

[behindyourightnow]

Another acquaintance has announced herself to be an undefined “trans” they/them he/him. That makes about… a dozen? Maybe more? In my extended circle. I am beyond caring at this point, I mostly get frustrated that we all have to pretend it’s not a social contagion.

One interesting thing I have noticed is that the twenty- or thirty-something women I know who have stubbornly remained cis, despite being deep in the social-contagion SJW morass (deeper than I am), are all without exception the ones who have decent careers and are generally stable and happy with where their life is.

I currently lean towards believing that it’s less a correlation between “unstable” people trooning out and also just being generally unsuccessful (although that is definitely a factor), and more that slightly older “stable” people unconsciously realize they have much more to lose, plus they just don’t have the need to search for what is “missing” in their lives if they’re actually reasonably successful, so they never become convinced they are gender dysphoric.

(This all only applies to women of course. When it comes to male troons you will find alpha males trooning out at the height of their careers as a power play)

 

[Aunt Carol]

Is there a way to tell if a post is in progess? ( I don't actually know)

They meant that they wrote the post, then immediately went back and edited in more afterward. Nothing you did.

One interesting thing I have noticed is that the twenty- or thirty-something women I know who have stubbornly remained cis, despite being deep in the social-contagion SJW morass (deeper than I am), are all without exception the ones who have decent careers and are generally stable and happy with where their life is.

I currently lean towards believing that it’s less a correlation between “unstable” people trooning out and also just being generally unsuccessful (although that is definitely a factor), and more that slightly older “stable” people unconsciously realize they have much more to lose, plus they just don’t have the need to search for what is “missing” in their lives if they’re actually reasonably successful, so they never become convinced they are gender dysphoric.

This does seem to be the dirty secret of the FtX crowd; it's rarely the settled people who don't have a lot of problems in their lives. You have to have a lot of issues in order to want a Grand Unified Theory that solves all of them at once.

Had a couple of students turn up at work the other week with "she/her" hangers under their badges. Not all of the students, and none of them had nonstandard pronouns. Still gave me pause for a moment.

 

[Bob jensen]

And that also requires introspection. Considering you now use "yeah I lied to her, but I was desperate", is itself a form of responsibility avoiding excuse and casting yourself as a victim. Again, if you don't heal this shortcoming in yourself, your children will notice subconsciously and are likely to copy, or at least less likely take you seriously

Ok, where did I say I lied to her? I'm not disputing your claim, but sincerely asking you to point out my own lies so I can see it and not repeat. I'm not infallible.

As for the victim, when your child comes out of the blue with "if you don't refer to me as he/him/my name of choice I will cut you out of my life forever"... who is the victim of manipulation and abuse? Mom.

 

[DumbDude42]

As for the victim, when your child comes out of the blue with "if you don't refer to me as he/him/my name of choice I will cut you out of my life forever"... who is the victim of manipulation and abuse? Mom.

the big issue is the 'out of the blue' part
such attitudes dont come out of the blue, it takes a long time of continuous exposure to tranny influence until a kid gets to this point. you perceiving it as something that suddenly happened out of the blue means you weren't aware of what she was doing, where she was going, who she was associating with, for quite a while

and i have to agree with the other poster in that trying to play any kind of "i'm in the right" or "i'm the real victim here" game with a delusional tranny kid is completely pointless, because even though you're objectively right, the kid is incapable of recognizing that, and will instead just react by building up even more spite and defiance directed against you