Legend of Zelda thread - Lorefags GTFO!

[Nobunaga]

Boy i sure love just walking around on a empty wasteland collecting shit, doing the same boring ass """"dungeons"""" while my paper equipment breaks every 3 seconds
BOTW was dogshit and seeing as how BOTW 2 is shaping up to be breath of the shart x skyward bore i have no hopes for it

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

Boy i sure love just walking around on a empty wasteland collecting shit, doing the same boring ass """"dungeons"""" while my paper equipment breaks every 3 seconds
BOTW was dogshit and seeing as how BOTW 2 is shaping up to be breath of the shart x skyward bore i have no hopes for it

There's always God of War Ragnarok or whatever I guess.

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Boy i sure love just walking around on a empty wasteland collecting shit, doing the same boring ass """"dungeons"""" while my paper equipment breaks every 3 seconds
BOTW was dogshit and seeing as how BOTW 2 is shaping up to be breath of the shart x skyward bore i have no hopes for it

It had some good qualities. The world looked nice (not terribly varied though), what little music existed worked just fine, and if it had traditional dungeons that would have solved the main gripe.

Still, the story was basically nothing and they ruined Ganon. I think this stuff can be fixed in BotW2, it just probably won't be.

 

[Nobunaga]

It had some good qualities. The world looked nice (not terribly varied though), what little music existed worked just fine, and if it had traditional dungeons that would have solved the main gripe.

Still, the story was basically nothing and they ruined Ganon. I think this stuff can be fixed in BotW2, it just probably won't be.

Ehh, ganon was always portrayed as a dumb pig who can barely even make coherent sentences (hell, the only time pig ganon was shown to be anything but a crayon eating sand nigger was four swords, but it was some gay ganondorf 2, not the og)

There's always God of War Ragnarok or whatever I guess.

Soy of war 1 was already trash, so unless the movie manages to get a meh out of me im not even gonna even bother watching it

 

[SSj_Ness (Yiffed)]

Ehh, ganon was always portrayed as a dumb pig who can barely even make coherent sentences (hell, the only time pig ganon was shown to be anything but a crayon eating sand nigger was four swords, but it was some gay ganondorf 2, not the og)

I don't recall him being mindless retard in LttP but it's been a while.

 

[Neo-Holstien]

Man, fuck Ilia. There's a reason people unironically wife the fishing minigame chick more than that bitch.

A. She was only a bitch to Link when she thought he was abusing Epona a presumed gift from her/her father
B. After your Brother/Cousin/Nephew tells her what happens she feels really shitty about her actions
C. Her not having fat tits (Like Malon) for the coomers to enjoy does not detract from her place as Links woman as far as the story is concerned.

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

I don't recall him being mindless retard in LttP but it's been a while.

He wasn't. He orchestrated the entire events of LttP as Agahnim and has a monologue as Ganon before the final battle.

 

[Never Scored]

Both LttP and OoT have plenty of combat, puzzle solving, and exploration. There's a little more exploration in OoT but that comes with the territory of being a Zelda game adapted to 3D, and it isn't so much more that the formula is unrecognizable. OoT is basically LttP in 3D, it feels remarkably similar, they did an even better job adapting Zelda to 3D than Mario imo.

There were definitely a lot more cinematic elements in OoT, but LttP was fairly cinematic for a game back then, especially for a non-JRPG. As for tutorials, they were more necessary in OoT because 3D was new, it was legitimately confusing to people. Some concessions had to be made in tutorializing it, they kept it reasonable.

Wind Waker was OoT but with water and cell shaded graphics, a lighter tone, etc. The actual core structure is virtually identical. Majora's Mask, like some Zeldas, mixed it up more than others, but gimmicks aside it's very clearly in the same style.

To look at another game and franchise entirely, from a different developer, Star Fox Adventures is more like a proper Zelda game than BotW. It was actually disparagingly referred to as a Zelda clone. If you took BotW back in time and plopped it before or after OoT, nobody would call it a Zelda clone. "Inspired by Zelda", but not a clone, because even by time SFA was released the formula was well established and recognizable. BotW doesn't fit it.

Maybe that's good, but I don't like it.

Walk across Hyrule Field as an adult in OOT. Walk across Dark World in LTTP. How many enemies do you fight in each? They're very different games. They're in the same series and share many plot elements and themes and the basic conceit of enter dungeon, collet item, make progress, (which BOTW also has, but broken down across shrines as opposed to larger dungeons) but from a gameplay perspective they are completely different. IMO, it's like comparing Mario World to Mario 64. Like, yeah, Bowser kidnapped the princess, you go into levels, jump around and kill goombas, collect power ups, coins and 1-ups and then have a showdown with Bowser at the end, but they're totally different experiences. Just something simple like having the ability to jump small gaps from the outset radically changed gameplay in OOT vs LTTP. You couldn't traverse a gap a single tile wide without an item in Zelda before then. There were Zelda purists on Usenet in the 1990s who thought OOT was dogshit because it changed so much established stuff in the series, the same way you view BOTW now. I think looking back decades after the fact and in light of BOTW it's harder to see how different the 2D and early 3D games are, but Zelda 64 was viewed as a radical reinvention of the series at the time it was released.

I think if you went back in time to 1998, stripped easily identifiable elements like characters from the older games and the Master Sword out of Zelda 64 and released it pretty much as is besides that, nobody would have recognized it as Zelda. They didn't just jump to 3D, they totally rebuilt the gameplay mechanics. Compare it to say, Brave Fencer Musashi which was very clearly inspired by Zelda, and much closer to a 3D version of pre-OOT Zelda mechanically.

*Edit* All this isn't to say OOT and LTTP have nothing in common. I just really think you're overstating a bunch of mostly superficial similarities that amount to the Zelda equivalent of "Bowser has captured Princes Toadstool" and kind of doing a disservice to OOT and Wind Waker in order to sustain the narrative of "They changed muh Zelda! How could they do this? They haven't changed it in 30 years!"

 

[Sergeant Major Buzzkill]

@Dom Cruise Exactly, bro. I understand, I dunno, the business perspective behind remaking the older games so zoomers can get the experience of the past games. But I just find it crazy that there aren't more original Zelda games on something as big as the Switch. The only "new" game we had was Skyward Sword HD and that was just... ugh.

I agree that they should've utilized WW's cel graphics. Sadly, other fans weren't fans of that style (personally, I like the different art direction Nintendo at the time, but the game itself didn't interest me then - had a Wii U tie-in as a birthday gift - and it doesn't now), so that's how we got Twilight Princess as a result, I think. But even then, the fans still bitched. So, whaddya know? But what are your problems with Twilight Princess?

Nah, the hate towards SS is justified. Especially as a current Switch port. Not worth damn near 60 bucks and is dated as hell, not to mention just boring.

TL;DW: Bad zoomer takes.

 

[winterfag]

A. She was only a bitch to Link when she thought he was abusing Epona a presumed gift from her/her father
B. After your Brother/Cousin/Nephew tells her what happens she feels really shitty about her actions
C. Her not having fat tits (Like Malon) for the coomers to enjoy does not detract from her place as Links woman as far as the story is concerned.
View attachment 3177591

Malon didn't have an awful amnesia subplot

 

[Neo-Holstien]

Malon didn't have an awful amnesia subplot

Malon had a lot going for her,

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

Walk across Hyrule Field as an adult in OOT. Walk across Dark World in LTTP. How many enemies do you fight in each?

I could use this very same example to point out that the fact Hyrule Field is an open, empty field means that there was no exploration in OoT.

Less enemies does not mean OoT deemphasized combat, especially when it has such a deeper combat system compared to 2D Zeldas.

Also to claim that the entire dungeon structure of the game is a superficial similarity is ridiculous. That's like me saying it being in 3D is a superficial difference. Nobody is saying that the jump to 3D didn't differentiate it, but the idea that OoT wasn't following the basic blueprint of LttP in 3D is ignorant at best.

 

[winterfag]

Malon had a lot going for her,
View attachment 3178442

Although this clearly isn't the case in the actual game, Cremia's bust size actually was increased from hers for MM. Unfortunately this change wasn't carried over into the 3DS remake

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

Cremia's bust size actually was increased from hers for MM.

It was necessary for the 2nd reward for defending her cart from the Gorman brothers.

 

[Gar For Archer]

I can understand the desire for more traditional dungeons in BOTW, it would have been the best of both worlds, but is it not cool that everything is essentially optional and you could in theory march right into the castle and take down Ganon? (has anyone managed to do that?) I thought gamers loved that crazy level of freedom.

It did also need a third thing between the dynamic of overworld and shrines, a few unique underground areas to discover ala below the tombstone in Ocarina of Time, this seems to be what BOTW2 is doing with going into the sky I guess?

And it did need a deeper story, there's essentially no story, there's setup, backstory and conclusion with nothing much at all in between, it lacks the twists and turns of OOT's story.

And personally, I wish it had something like the Ghost Ship in Wind Waker, of which there are a few things like that, but I mean something literally ghostly, it was kind of lacking those spooky elements like Poes and Redeads.

But the essence of Zelda is exploration and discovery, not dungeon crawling and BOTW delivered that in spades, not only with the beautifully designed open world but the physics engine as well.

I think the fast travel system needed some limitation or rebalancing, because giving you the ability to fast-travel to any shrine/tower basically from the start of the game really disincentivizes actually walking from place to place.

IMO, initially you should only be able to teleport from any unlocked shrine to the top of the nearest tower. Shrines are commonplace enough that this shouldn’t require an inordinate amount of walking to one, and towers obviously provide a sort of fast travel of their own, where you’re able to glide off in any direction you can see once you’re at the top. Then, after you reach some milestone (a good one would probably be defeating all 4 Divine Beasts) you unlock the ability to fast-travel to any shrine or tower from anywhere, because then you’re at the point in the game where you’ve already explored most of the map and just want to get shit done.

 

[Never Scored]

Also to claim that the entire dungeon structure of the game is a superficial similarity is ridiculous.

Why? I will refer you to my Mario 64 vs World example:

IMO, it's like comparing Mario World to Mario 64. Like, yeah, Bowser kidnapped the princess, you go into levels, jump around and kill goombas, collect power ups, coins and 1-ups and then have a showdown with Bowser at the end, but they're totally different experiences.

The "go collect three bobbles from three levels, get the sword, go to mirror world, collect more bobbles, fight the last boss" structure is just an excuse to get Link to run around and do shit. It's not at all central to the gameplay.

I will grant you that the central gameplay loop of enter dungeon, get item, unlock gate to progress, has been present since Zelda on NES, but it still remains in Breath of the Wild. You just collect spirit orbs to level up your character instead of say, finding a hookshot to enter the Forest Temple, and the puzzles are broken across 120 mini dungeons instead of nine or so big ones. The world is still "gated" even though it's open because if you go into certain areas before you are strong enough you will get raped and you can't swim to some places or climb some mountains until your stamina is up. Plus there are still hard gates that you need items to pass, like needing certain armor to go into cold or hot areas or needing the glider to get out of the starting area, needing a certain number of hearts to draw the master sword, etc. I think the most radically different thing BOTW does is not stopping you from entering gated areas and killing yourself, and letting you figure out which area to go next yourself.

Still though, that is a fairly common gameplay loop. It's also used in Banjo Kazooie , for example. In that case it's enter level, discover new move, unlock new area in overworld as opposed to enter dungeon, get item, unlock new area of overworld. I'd still argue that there are very distinct styles of Zelda games that approach that loop in radically different ways. There's not this continuum of game design across every game in the series that didn't change for 30 years until BOTW decided to just totally throw out the window.

 

[Milwaukee Macho Man]

Why? I will refer you to my Mario 64 vs World example:

The problem is that the level structure between World and 64 is vastly different where as it isn't between LttP and OoT.

I will grant you that the central gameplay loop of enter dungeon, get item, unlock gate to progress, has been present since Zelda on NES, but it still remains in Breath of the Wild. You just collect spirit orbs to level up your character instead of say, finding a hookshot to enter the Forest Temple, and the puzzles are broken across 120 mini dungeons instead of nine or so big ones.

You don't see how going to 3 dungeons, then getting the master sword, than 8 is different from going to 120 mini dungeons? It's different structure entirely, gameplay loop be damned.

Are you being purposefully obtuse, or is this just a case of OoT being babies first Zelda?

 

[Never Scored]

You don't see how going to 3 dungeons, then getting the master sword, than 8 is different from going to 120 dungeons?

Remember, I'm not really arguing the differences between games are superficial, I'm arguing a lot of the similarities between the 2D games and 3D games were superficial and the series was radically overhauled in the jump to 3D. I would not disagree that BOTW was another radical overhaul, just that it's not the first time they've done it. The original post I replied to was saying something like, "I don't know why they fucked with a forumla that's been in place since LTTP." I was arguing they've already stuck their dick in it multiple times. I think Wind Waker was a pretty radical departure for the series too, before they went back to the OOT formula with Twilight Princess.

In my last post I'm just conceding that yes, there is a core gameplay loop of enter dungeon -> get item -> unlock gate that has not changed throughout the series, but that's present in BOTW as well.

All I'm saying about the three dungeons, master sword, more dungeons(because even by OOT it wasn't eight) setup is it's about as superficial as "Mario has to rescue the princess again." It's just a storyline to get Link to do stuff. They just kept reusing it because Nintendo doesn't give a fuck about coming up with a new story and never has. If there were four pendants and eleven pieces of Triforce in a Link to the Past would it be a radically different game other than being a little longer? If so how? If not, how is that story structure not just a superficial call to action?

 

[Dom Cruise]

Boy i sure love just walking around on a empty wasteland collecting shit, doing the same boring ass """"dungeons"""" while my paper equipment breaks every 3 seconds
BOTW was dogshit and seeing as how BOTW 2 is shaping up to be breath of the shart x skyward bore i have no hopes for it

It had some good qualities. The world looked nice (not terribly varied though), what little music existed worked just fine, and if it had traditional dungeons that would have solved the main gripe.

Still, the story was basically nothing and they ruined Ganon. I think this stuff can be fixed in BotW2, it just probably won't be.

Empty wasteland? Not terribly varied? It's like you didn't even play BOTW.

How can you say it's not terribly varied when the desert area is hugely different, as is the area around death mountain and the jungle type area?

There were Zelda purists on Usenet in the 1990s who thought OOT was dogshit because it changed so much established stuff in the series, the same way you view BOTW now.

It's funny how the more things change, the more they stay the same, it's just a law of the interwebs that you're always going to have people saying "new thing bad, old thing good"

But what are your problems with Twilight Princess?

It's kind of hard to put into words, but something about the game I find off putting and it's never managed to grab me, the last time I tried the Wii version was in 2017 and immediately something about the movement and camera controls made the game physically uncomfortable to try to play.

The first time I tried it in 2007 I found it too slow paced, it just didn't grab me.

I want to try the GameCube version and see if more typical controls are better, but the copy I bought wound up not being able to be read and now copies are expensive.

But for one thing the graphics have aged like milk, it's laughable compared to Wind Waker, it wasn't a looker when it was new either, coming out at a time when one likely would have already played some 7th gen games on the 360 as I did, compared to something like Oblivion it was a pretty big step down, which is one reason why I never liked the Wii much in general.

Had the game come out in 2005 like was originally planned it may have been a different story, I feel robbed as that E3 2004 trailer was genuinely impressive at the time and it's nuts to think that almost 20 years later I still haven't played the game in full, I could be wrong, but I feel like the final game got a graphical downgrade compared to what was first shown.

I don't know, it's been over 15 years, unless Nintendo re-releases the HD version I'm not sure I care anymore, I'm a huge Zelda fan but am I obsessive enough to feel like I have to finish every single one?

 

[Never Scored]

I want to try the GameCube version and see if more typical controls are better, but the copy I bought wound up not being able to be read and now copies are expensive.

But for one thing the graphics have aged like milk, it's laughable compared to Wind Waker, it wasn't a looker when it was new either, coming out at a time when one likely would have already played some 7th gen games on the 360 as I did, compared to something like Oblivion it was a pretty big step down, which is one reason why I never liked the Wii much in general.

Had the game come out in 2005 like was originally planned it may have been a different story, I feel robbed as that E3 2004 trailer was genuinely impressive at the time and it's nuts to think that almost 20 years later I still haven't played the game in full, I could be wrong, but I feel like the final game got a graphical downgrade compared to what was first shown.

I don't know, it's been over 15 years, unless Nintendo re-releases the HD version I'm not sure I care anymore, I'm a huge Zelda fan but am I obsessive enough to feel like I have to finish every single one?

It's totally worth your time to pick up a Wii U. They are under $150, super easy to hack, and once hacked, they can play Gamecube, Wii and Wii U games natively, plus there are plentiful Gamecube controllers around that connect to a Wiimote. There's a lot of good shit for all three systems that has not seen rerelease.