WhatIsThePunchline
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Star Trek - Space: The Final Frontier
- Thread starter Snorlaxative
- Start date
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- Jan 18, 2019
The thing about allegory is its really useful if you want to look at the core of an issue without any of the baggage that comes with real world context. This is why you see it a lot in scifi, because it
I don't mean to get conspiratorial but I partially blame the rise of shit like this on brain dead bad-faith journalists who are constantly looking to assign some (current year) culture war issue to every fantasy conflict and then complain when said conflict does not perfectly represent the issue they've decided its a stand in for. As a result your only "safe" options as a hack hollywood writer are to make your conflict as generic and shallow as possible so that nobody could possibly misinterpret it, or make it a perfect recreation of some current issue that will age your show like milk but hey at least you'll get those sweet sweet asspats. This expectation that every piece of media and every creator must "use thier platform" to preach the good word is absolute poison for good writing and is especially obvious in shows like Picard. Its breeding a culture where art is no longer something that is allowed to challenge you, instead of helping you form your own opinion on Thing the purpose of so much media now is to just tell you if Thing Good or Thing Bad.
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The funny thing about sci fi allegory is that - in science fiction in particular - people are pretty forgiving of even a thinly veiled allegory. The Orville had an all-male gay race that was revealed later to force sex-change females into men when they're born and outlaw heterosexuality on pain of death. This is as subtle as looking up the symptoms of an STD 'for a friend', but most people still felt that it worked and appreciated it. Many times in Star Trek they were close to or as lazy about this (there is literally an episode in Voyager where Seven makes a false rape accusation against an innocent man who then kills himself over it, and they barely skate around actually calling it sexual). So you don't even need to be good at it if you even try. Writers are just actively choosing not to use allegory.
But I agree. The main issue is that culture has gotten so extreme that we're expected to shout from the rooftops at all times whatever the narrative is. An allegory is frowned upon because there's a chance someone misses it - and they can't be fooled into agreeing with something, they must just believe the thing because it is Right...and a really clever allegory is hated because the idiots pushing the extreme culture miss the allegory entirely. Art has always been about trying to convey the opinion of the artist and thus convince the person consuming it to agree. But because we've gotten more extreme, it's gone from trying to push or nudge a person into believing their way - or even preaching it - to screaming and demanding it, because tumblr vomited a generation of children into culture at large who all believe the only answer is screaming louder than the others.
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The Orville episode helped because it didn’t really paint anyone involved as “super evil Hitler” or anything. Everyone had their understandable reasons for doing what they did, and the parents didn’t break up and still loved their son at the end of the day.
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The anti-heterosexuality law that ends in murder is a little harsher, mind. I can't remember for sure now, but I feel like that might have resulted in the parents breaking up over it, as one does over murder and attempted murder.
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- Mar 29, 2014
It seems crazy that TNG is closer in time to TOS than it is to STD.
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Phalanges Mycologist
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Delanci's son who played Q2 in Voyager is now a rather well respected UN Ambasidor, not in one of those throw away positions but one that can genuinely achieve things on a international level
I can see them using that as a way out of the new era trek in general they might use S3 of Picard and the next Disco series to "Heal" the time line to get back to a more TNG era setting.
Both Lore and B4 where technical failures, B4 lacked the processing power of Data and Lore and Lore was fundamentally damaged they couldn't just apply Datapersonalityfile.exe into Lore because while they are siblings they had slightly differnt positronic hardware it's why they where able to differentiate between them as TNG progressed.
There is always the Trek "Ethical Considerations" to get Data back they would have essentially had to kill either Lore or B4, and in TNG The Measure of a Man the Federation determined that Data and other androids like him (not those ones from Pic S1 that got hacked) where the same sentient beings as the equivalent of Humans, Vulcan's, Klingons etc
It's a calling to there Saviour complex, they like the Borg (and the Federation) want to spread and change people to there own image, they might be Evil people but they can be saved if you only get them to behave a bit more like you step by step anybody can be "Saved".
I've got two head cannons I'd like to share that's relevant to the current era Trek -
1) The Borg we see today where a mistake, initially the Borg where planned to be a insectile race related to that guy who got the best death in TNG Season 1 but I am not talking about that - No what I am talking about is how the Borg got started as a species, they where a Lab accident that escaped and killed off there creator species a unfinished science project that was likely created to help them but ended up as a Grey Goo situation where they just kept on replicating and assimilating people as a weird form of there base program and the Drones we see are not the Borg they are just the hosts they need to effect things on a Macro level because the real Borg are the Nano Probes.
2) Section 31 are the real power behind the federation, when S31 was founded along side the rest of the Federation is was a collective of people who realised that while the goals of the Federation was well intentioned they needed some real supervision and dedicated die hard people willing to protect the blundering buffoons who always want to investigate everything and shake hands with every species they meet. S31 are the real explorers and have to guide the rest of the federation around space like some form of Guide Dog for the special needs kids to make sure they avoid some things until they are ready.
One of those threats was The Borg, Q fucked that up but they where more ready than they thought but out of an abundance of Caution they wanted to give them a wide birth, it's why Star Fleet was suddenly able to come up with a lot of new tech in the course of a few months that was able to hold them off.
They where aware of the Founders and much like the founders planned to encounter the Federation at some point in the future (IRC DS9 someone said 500 years time) Section 31 was aware of them as well they might not have made contact with them but had found extensive records and mentions of them from other species they have encountered and where planning accordingly.
This would also go a fair way to explaining why the Federation after Ent and until the Midpoint of DS9 didn't have a dedicated Tactical force and relied on Security teams rather than having Macos or Marines available to deal with serious conflict it's because the area they are in is essentially considered safe and has been prevetted by Section 31 who do have a military capability they use to neutralise threats to the wider Harmony of the federation as they see fit.
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- Aug 1, 2021
The Borg in the novels are a product of the Caeliar forcibly merging with human cast aways, they aren't "evil" at least not originally, just the product of a traumatized alien mind, desperate circumstances, and a sort of psycho-physical breakdown.
People vociferously complained about this, and Destiny gets a lot of flack for its Borg origin-but I'll take Destiny's origin over whatever Picard did.
The Borg in Destiny are "redeemed" at least sort of-they are all transformed into caeliar who proceed to fly off to elsewhere. But its clear the Borg as they were, were a malignant force that was like less than a minute away from destroying the Federation.
TBH, I thought Mack took the whole "superior elf" trope and ran with its implications-Caeliar are absolute pacifists even to their own near genocide, they refuse to help anyone, but are internally consistent(i.e. no killing) in their own values. This makes them extremely difficult for the protagonists to deal with-not because they are arrogant, but because they will not compromise their own ethics. They're not "good" in some kindly deific sense, more like a benevolent neutral I guess? Which is interesting.
Hernandez' whole arc where she basically becomes a Caeliar through catom injection and a rather wholesome bit of stockholm syndrome-even to leave with them I found very moving and touching.
(But then I have a soft spot for the motif of human characters "ascending" or leaving humanity for something greater).
People vociferously complained about this, and Destiny gets a lot of flack for its Borg origin-but I'll take Destiny's origin over whatever Picard did.
The Borg in Destiny are "redeemed" at least sort of-they are all transformed into caeliar who proceed to fly off to elsewhere. But its clear the Borg as they were, were a malignant force that was like less than a minute away from destroying the Federation.
Bit late but not really? The Caeliar I found to be an interesting concept. Yes they do have some "elf" tropes, that said they aren't superior just to be superior. They are absolute pacifists, and are actively seeking a higher civilization/being/thing.So on a lark I started looking at memory beta again on the novels and got sucked into the talk about the final borg war...
Look at this straight from the wiki:
Caeliar evolved past the need for sleep, and spend their entire lives in search of artistic and scientific gains, including the Great Work.
The Caeliar have no need for farming, agriculture, animal husbandry, or economics, due to their needs being met via manipulation of catoms. Additionally, the Caeliar have a great respect for all life, and will seek to not be the cause of loss of life; this philosophy goes so far as to not eat meat or eggs or allow their guests to do so. Due to this, they will not euthanize living beings, but are willing to apply pain suppression techniques to allow the being to die peacefully.
The Caeliar species lives in absolute seclusion, masking their power signatures and obstructing scans of their world, remaining beyond detection and interaction with other species. If they are ever discovered, they merely shift the beings through space-time to a distant area. Caeliar seek to preserve and protect sentient life at all costs, including at the sacrifice of their own lives.
. . .
In 2381, the Caeliar were forced to come out of their self-imposed exile upon being confronted with the truth that they were indirectly responsible for the creation of the Borg. In order to end the threat the Borg posed to the Galaxy, the Caeliar Gestalt deposed the Borg Queen and dissolved the Borg Collective, offering the trillions of newly freed drones the opportunity to join them in their great work.
Whilst the vast majority of former drones accepted, some chose not to do so. These former drones were granted their freedom and Caeliar Catoms replaced their Borg implants, restoring their original appearances and identities.
A side effect of the transformation of Borg Nanoprobes into Caeliar Catoms was that on planets which had formerly hosted Borg Technology, when the Catoms broke down it resulted in regeneration of the planets' biospheres.
Fucking ELVES! They invented literal elves with fucking MAGIC into Star Trek to "solve" the final arc of the Borg story.
No no, I want you all to see this insanity.
Catom
Catoms, or claytronic atoms, are also referred to as'programmable matter'. Catoms are described as being similar in nature to a nanomachine, but with greater power and complexity. While microscopic individually, they bond and work together on a larger scale. Catoms can change their density...Catoms, or claytronic atoms, are also referred to as 'programmable matter'. Catoms are described as being similar in nature to a nanomachine, but with greater power and complexity. While microscopic individually, they bond and work together on a larger scale. Catoms can change their density, energy levels, state of being, and other characteristics using thought alone.
I'm disappointed I've yet to find many complaints about this. Apparently most online are praising these books.
I'm also surprised moviebob hasn't created a Caeliar shrine in his basement.
TBH, I thought Mack took the whole "superior elf" trope and ran with its implications-Caeliar are absolute pacifists even to their own near genocide, they refuse to help anyone, but are internally consistent(i.e. no killing) in their own values. This makes them extremely difficult for the protagonists to deal with-not because they are arrogant, but because they will not compromise their own ethics. They're not "good" in some kindly deific sense, more like a benevolent neutral I guess? Which is interesting.
Hernandez' whole arc where she basically becomes a Caeliar through catom injection and a rather wholesome bit of stockholm syndrome-even to leave with them I found very moving and touching.
(But then I have a soft spot for the motif of human characters "ascending" or leaving humanity for something greater).
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- Sep 24, 2020
In my own head the Borg aren't the result of a single catastrophic event, but the result of a delta quadrant race pushing towards a singularity and gradually giving up more and more responsibility and the running of lives and society to a universal computer network. Because it'll make everyones lives better, right? At some point circumstances flip from the computer system serving the humanoids, to the humanoids serving the electronic hivemind, but there's no significant pushback at an individual or societal level because it's just one small, subtle progression in a long string of them. It barely makes a difference. Everyone's already full of chips and implants replacing their fleshy bits and telling them go here, do that. It's just how it is, yanno? Resistance is... futile.
They're not even the Borg as we know them, at that point. That state is still far down the road. But now there's no turning away from that path.
So the nuBorg concept in Picard is stupid, but not a million miles away from what I imagined for the OG Borg. The biggest difference is that the shortsighted utopian dummies dreaming about ushering in this cybernetic benevolence are sitting in a RL writers room, not a fictional robotics lab.
They're not even the Borg as we know them, at that point. That state is still far down the road. But now there's no turning away from that path.
So the nuBorg concept in Picard is stupid, but not a million miles away from what I imagined for the OG Borg. The biggest difference is that the shortsighted utopian dummies dreaming about ushering in this cybernetic benevolence are sitting in a RL writers room, not a fictional robotics lab.
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ditto
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Last Picard episode was straight trash.
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hasn't that been the entire show
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Not really. Having Mama Picard neck herself took it to a new level.
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I think you're confusing allegory with symbolism and metaphors.
Because otherwise your statements about og SW are false as Lucas has been pretty clear about the Vietnam allegory all over them.
This was the conclusion to the Voyager episode "survival instinct" - send them back to the collective to live or let them die free.
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They literally showed her necking herself
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@Shamash
I can't read "catoms" without cringing so hard I want to die.
My biggest problem with it is that it's so obvious Mack literally invented the space elves in order to have a deus ex machina to save the day at the last minute.
Though there is some humor to be had in analyzing whether the author intended for the elves to have flaws, or if they were so enamored with their creation they literally couldn't see the problems/faults.
I definitely agree with @Newman's Lovechild proposed origin of the Borg being an ordinary, nobody race that spiraled out of control in their effort to improve and unify. It not only fits with some hints we had in Voyager, but it also makes them much more horrifying with the slippery slope implications.
I can't read "catoms" without cringing so hard I want to die.
My biggest problem with it is that it's so obvious Mack literally invented the space elves in order to have a deus ex machina to save the day at the last minute.
Though there is some humor to be had in analyzing whether the author intended for the elves to have flaws, or if they were so enamored with their creation they literally couldn't see the problems/faults.
I definitely agree with @Newman's Lovechild proposed origin of the Borg being an ordinary, nobody race that spiraled out of control in their effort to improve and unify. It not only fits with some hints we had in Voyager, but it also makes them much more horrifying with the slippery slope implications.
Sex Cannon Lupa
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This might be the greatest show ever made. I don't even watch it yet I'm immensely entertained.
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By comparison, here's the scene from TNG where we saw Picard's mother:
It didn't need to bring up any childhood traumas, or go into detail about how tragic her death was - everything that we need to know is provided by Stewart's acting (admittedly with a big assist from the music), and it is infinitely more moving.