Russian Invasion of Ukraine Megathread

[kuuu]

Treat each other well in the rear, don't fight with those who stayed there.
We got like 1 mil soldiers, we have enough.
We just need your support, yadda-yadda.

Meanwhile somewhere in Ukraine

Так переможем.

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ATTENTION ALL UKRANIANS ALL OVER THE WORLD: In order to protect free speech and save DemocracyTM in Ukraine, you are no longer allowed to:

1) Criticize the Ukrainian government in any way, shape, or form
2) Oppose the governments handling of the Donbas and provoking a war with Russia
3) expose corruption in the Ukrainian government
4) call the 2014 Coup in Kiev an actual Coup
5) cover any and all war crimes committed by the Ukrainian government and the extremists they support

Do any of these things you can, and will be arrested, deported back to Ukraine, and imprisoned and tortured for an indeterminate length, and likely end up dead in a ditch from “Russian infiltrators”

We all must do everything we can to defend DemocracyTM!

Ukrainian 'pro-Putin' blogger arrested in Spain for 'high treason'

Anatoly Shariy, 43 (right), was arrested in Spain on Thursday on an international arrest warrant issued by Ukraine last year on charges of high treason and inciting inter-ethnic violence.

www.dailymail.co.uk

That's what he gets for trying to help his compatriots by constantly providing humanitarian aid and having streams almost daily where people wrote who needs what help and where.
Oh, and he also had an oppositional party. Should have known better, eh?

 

[Finnegan the Supershark]

The president fled to Mother Russia after police and hired thugs killed protesters. His own party disavowed him.

Oh, those protests that the leader of C14 said would have turned into a "gay parade" if it weren't for them? How convenient that all those protesters got shot right after the US embassy told the opposition that only a hundred dead protesters would make the US support the coup. And then afterwards they passed that law giving immunity for all crimes committed during the coup. And all the documents got lost.

"Separatists" that murdered 298 people by shooting down MH17 with a Russian Buk launcher.

Why did Ukraine allow dozens of passenger flights to fly in airspace where planes were getting shot down without even warning the airlines? Is Ukraine a legitimate sovereign state or what?

 

[mindlessobserver]

What right does the Ukrainian ethnic group have to seize and Ukrainize the entirety of the historically multiethnic, multilingual territory of the former USSR adminstrative unit that happens to be named after them?

Which gets to the rub of what made the region multi ethnic and multi lingual in the first place.

The history of this region is complicated. But I will explain it very briefly. The Pontic Greeks settled Crimea. They ultimately became part of the Roman Empire. The land on the Dneiper became a HUGE source of grain and wine that rivaled the Nile and Egypt. After the Muslims Conquered Egypt this region became super mega important. So important the Eastern Empire extended direct control to the area and Christianized the Kyivan Rus, who before that time were consistent raiders.

This incidentally is why Ukraines symbol is Poseidons Trident. It's a nod to their Greek past, and the importance of the Sea. Namely, for the export of their Grain, and the import of their culture.

As the Byzantine Empire began to fail, the Italian City states stepped into the gap. The City of Genoa claimed Crimea for a time in order to control the grain trade. And then the Mongols came, overthrew the apple cart, killed all the Italians AND the Greeks, along with a good chunk of the Kyivan Rus and then proceeded to get their asses handed to them by the Holy Roman Empire and internal struggle.

The region would then become a crossroads of history, at the border of major empire's from the west, south and East. The native populations would be allied with and exterminated in equal measure, culminating in the largest extermination campaign of them all, the Holodomor, perpetrated by Russia.

By the 1920s, though Russia had established colonies in Sevastapol and Odessa for the past 200 years, their control of the area was tenuous. Stalin elected to change this situation by genocide, and forcible relocation. Kyivan Rus, now labeled Ukrainians were deported west of the Dneiper or to Siberia. Crimean Tatars, remnants of the Mongol and Turkic occupations were just killed. Ethnic Russians were forcibly relocated to the areas.

80 years later, and in living memory to everyone involved, the original owners of the land are contesting the occupation of it by people their grandmothers told them were moved in after the occupiers grandfathers murdered their grandfathers.

Historical grudges run bone deep in Europe, and in the case of Ukraine and Russia, this war is a war to settle once and for all where the borders between their people should be, following the dissolution of the MONGOL EMPIRE.

Take that for what you will. It's stupid. But it's true.

 

[UVB-76]

Why did Ukraine allow dozens of passenger flights to fly in airspace where planes were getting shot down without even warning the airlines? Is Ukraine a legitimate sovereign state or what?

 

[Givi]

It's 75% the separatist's fault but I still don't understand who the fuck thought flying a commercial airliner through airspace rife with SAM systems was a good idea. Everyone involved with letting that plane fly through contested air space should have been fired and charged with 298 counts of manslaughter. From what I can find online, Malaysia Airlines thought it was totally fine because they were going to be flying at 30,000 km from the ground, which anyone with an internet connection could tell you is well within the range of some SAM systems that Malaysia Airlines couldn't possibly be 100% sure the separatists weren't in control of (what if they had captured an S-300, instead of being given a BUK by the Russians?).

I can understand the logic of

> akshually it's our air space so we can do whatever we want with it sweetie

but really? Ukraine knew full well that anything flying over the Donbas stood risk of being shot down, but worst of all Malaysia Airlines should have been sued into oblivion for letting that flight pass through there to save a couple of fucking shekels. It's not like the place is the size of Europe, it's only 26,000 kilometers big. Go the fuck around.

And the separatists were retarded for getting giddy at the prospect of getting to use their brand new BUK on a Ukrainian AN-26 instead of asking themselves why the fuck a Ukrainian cargo plane would be attempting to fly over their airspace. I suspect poorly trained or rookie crews are also heavily to blame here. In any case, the crew should have been at least put on trial.

But I'll leave here the disclaimer that I'm not an expert on this case and may be missing something.

 

[Chinggis Khan]

Historical grudges run bone deep in Europe, and in the case of Ukraine and Russia, this war is a war to settle once and force all where the borders between their people should be, following the dissolution of the MONGOL EMPIRE.

This shows the futility of the “Ukrainian struggle” then. The radical zeal to maintain their identity, and they killed themselves in the process. Their next generation is gone. The women are gone. There is nobody left to continue producing a Ukrainian nation in sufficient numbers. The men are now fighting for some vain notions of pride. They cannot fight for a future Ukraine, because it is already gone. Even in victory they will retire broken and alone.

All the romantic invocations of past struggles are pointless. Back then the women didn’t have the option to just fuck off to go somewhere else. That’s why even during the Holdomor Ukranians reproduced in sufficient numbers.

Now they do. It’s only a hop on a train and they are dining in Venice.

 

[mindlessobserver]

It's 75% the separatist's fault but I still don't understand who the fuck thought flying a commercial airliner through airspace rife with SAM systems was a good idea. Everyone involved with letting that plane fly through contested air space should have been fired and charged with 298 counts of manslaughter.

I can understand the logic of

> akshually it's our air space so we can do whatever we want with it sweetie

but really? Ukraine knew full well that anything flying over the Donbas stood risk of being shot down, but worst of all Malaysia Airlines should have been sued into oblivion for letting that flight pass through there to save a couple of fucking shekels. It's not like the place is the size of Europe, it's only 26,000 kilometers big.

And the separatists were retarded for getting giddy at the prospect of getting to use their brand new BUK on a Ukrainian AN-26 instead of asking themselves why the fuck a Ukrainian cargo plane would be attempting to fly over their airspace. I suspect poorly trained or rookie crews are also heavily to blame here. In any case, the crew should have been at least put on trial.

But I'll leave here the disclaimer that I'm not an expert on this case and may be missing something.

75% the separatists fault but 100% the Russians fault. The airliner was flying at an altitude that the only weapons systems that could hit it was a weapon system the DPR could not have possessed. A vehicle launched High altitude SAM. Russia however had provided these weapons to the DPR and at the same time had told the ICAO it had done no such thing.

 

[Marley Rathbone]

"Separatists" that murdered 298 people by shooting down MH17 with a Russian Buk launcher.

Just a minor detail, but it was actually shot down by The Ukraine.

 

[mindlessobserver]

This shows the futility of the “Ukrainian struggle” then. The radical zeal to maintain their identity, and they killed themselves in the process. Their next generation is gone. The women are gone. There is nobody left to continue producing a Ukrainian nation in sufficient numbers. The men are now fighting for some vain notions of pride. They cannot fight for a future Ukraine, because it is already gone. Even in victory they will retire broken and alone.

All the romantic invocations of past struggles are pointless. Back then the women didn’t have the option to just fuck off to go somewhere else. That’s why even during the Holdomor Ukranians reproduced in sufficient numbers.

Now they do. It’s only a hop on a train and they are dining in Venice.

Your argument here is the perfect explanation for why thousands of Russians boys are dead and thousands more will die.

Russia says Ukraine is not a country. It invaded to prove it. Ukraine says it is a country. It's fighting to prove it.

The proof will be shown in the body count.

 

[Chinggis Khan]

And the separatists were retarded for getting giddy at the prospect of getting to use their brand new BUK on a Ukrainian AN-26 instead of asking themselves why the fuck a Ukrainian cargo plane would be attempting to fly over their airspace. I suspect poorly trained or rookie crews are also heavily to blame here. In any case, the crew should have been at least put on trial..

If I recall correctly, the going theory at the time was that the separatist BUK was missing many parts of its radar. But it was able to fire in the general vicinity and let the targeting system guide it to aircraft correctly. Several days before, the BUK intercepted a Ukraine supply plane. The Ukrainians, knowing that the BUK was missing radar equipment, suspected they had a mole feeding intel to the separatists. So they scheduled another supply plane, but canceled it, meanwhile at the same time redirected the Malaysian Airlines to fly directly over the Donbas

 

[Givi]

75% the separatists fault but 100% the Russians fault. The airliner was flying at an altitude that the only weapons systems that could hit it was a weapon system the DPR could not have possessed. A vehicle launched High altitude SAM. Russia however had provided these weapons to the DPR and at the same time had told ICAO it had done no such thing.

I'd argue that Russia is the only party not at fault, or at least only holds a very small part of the blame. The result would have been the same if the DPR had captured a Ukrainian BUK or S-300. Malaysia Airlines isn't the Ukrainian government and has NO possible way to be certain X military isn't in possession of Y equipment captured or otherwise (not like the Ukrainian military would be 100% sure either, but you get my drift), or at the very least, they have no business trusting the lives of 300 people with their guess.

And in any case, sometimes an airplane has to lower altitude for whatever reason, and the separatists were already known to have at least 1 Pantsir S-1 by November 2014, which is capable of engaging targets at up to 20km altitude, not to mention the plethora of Osas and Strelas that could have shot it down if it was forced to lower altitude for any reason. It was wildly irresponsible to ever let that airplane through. Civilian airliners don't belong anywhere near contested air space.

 

[UVB-76]

Just a minor detail, but it was actually shot down by The Ukraine.

Except that the launcher seen and filmed being hauled away from the firing area was identified as one belonging to the 53rd anti air missile brigade stationed in Kursk, thanks to the Russian crews posting photos of their launchers on social media.
God bless Vkontakte.

 

[Finnegan the Supershark]

make sure that the new topic doesn't allow me to dunk on you.

Dunk? Is this the Special Olympics?

Malaysia Airlines should have been sued into oblivion for letting that flight pass through there to save a couple of fucking shekels.

It's not the responsibility of the airline nor the ICAO to assume that they know better than the sovereign government which alone has the prerogative to ensure the safety of its airspace for civilian traffic. They assumed it was safe because it was still open.

The airliner was flying at an altitude that the only weapons systems that could hit it was a weapon system the DPR could not have possessed

It says in the official report that Ukraine knew that there were weapon systems present that could threaten cruising airliners.

 

[UVB-76]

Dunk? Is this the Special Olympics?

Yes. Arguing online is the special Olympics, you can win but you're still retarded.

 

[Chinggis Khan]

Your argument here is the perfect explanation for why thousands of Russians boys are dead and thousands more will die.

Russia says Ukraine is not a country. It invaded to prove it. Ukraine says it is a country. It's fighting to prove it.

These moralizing diatribes ring hollow to me. At the end of this war Russia will have a country. Regardless of how many “thousands of dead Russian boys” there are. Russia will exist. Ukraine won’t.

Ukraine is already dead. You need women to reproduce a nation. You don’t need men to reproduce. This is why every famine in history has led to a population increase. It’s why the Jewish population increased during the Holocaust. Don’t know why this is so hard for people to understand when it’s basically just nature taking effect

Results matter. If Ukraine compromised with the separatists they would have had a future nation. Now they don’t. Who is the ukranian patriot? The one calling for peace and negotiations, or the one who pushed for war?

It is the latter that killed Ukraine

 

[Sexual Chocolate]

The more countries in an alliance that doesn't fight between itself and deters attacks from outsiders, the less military conflict happens?

How many wars and special military operations has NATO been in since 1991? Lots. NATO has been bombing the shit out of Africa and the Middle East for decades now. They overthrew Gaddafi and turned Libya into a failed state with open air slave markets for no good reason. They bombed the crap out of Syria in direct support of ISIS. NATO has done a lot more murderous and shady shit than Russia, China, Iran and North Korea combined. If international law wasn't a joke, its senior officers and the politicians they answer to would all be in jail.

It's not about deterring attackers, it exists to create wars, which is the main reason why this one is happening, and why they're also now threatening the Chinks with "global NATO". It's definitely not about reducing expenditure on weapons, that's the exact opposite of what NATO is about and you'd have to be cripplingly naive to think Lockheed Martin is hoping to sell fewer products.

 

[mindlessobserver]

These moralizing diatribes ring hollow to me. At the end of this war Russia will have a country. Regardless of how many “thousands of dead Russian boys” there are. Russia will exist. Ukraine won’t.

Ukraine is already dead. You need women to reproduce a nation. You don’t need men to reproduce. This is why every famine in history has led to a population increase. It’s why the Jewish population increased during the Holocaust. Don’t know why this is so hard for people to understand when it’s basically just nature taking effect

Results matter. If Ukraine compromised with the separatists they would have had a future nation. Now they don’t. Who is the ukranian patriot? The one calling for peace and negotiations, or the one who pushed for war?

It is the latter that killed Ukraine

If Ukraine had folded over and surrendered on day one, this would be true. I don't know how you can believe its true now. Or that it will be true in the future. Guess we shall see.

 

[Finnegan the Supershark]

the right to undo the damage done by centuries of russification efforts carried out by both tsarist and soviet occupiers

Here in America, we also have people who think that historical grievances that nobody alive today had anything to do with entitle them to things. We call them, "black people".

 

[Chinggis Khan]

If Ukraine had folded over and surrendered on day one, this would be true. I don't know how you can believe its true now. Or that it will be true in the future. Guess we shall see.

By calling a negotiation a “surrender” is loaded language. The time for negotiation was 2014, and every day that has passed since then. Time is not on Ukraine’s side, as every week that passes means more territorial concessions to end the war. The longer the war continues, the less likely a future Ukraine will exist. Yet Ukraine is still maintaining they can regain Crimea.

This war will probably be the best argument for Realism and Realpolitik in IR in world history. We are seeing the failings of liberalism happen in real time.

 

[ProfessionalRookie]

You need women to reproduce a nation.

Why, what happened to the Ukrainian women all of a sudden?