Palemoon dev Tobin/NTP/New Tobin Paradigm leaves the project - >Guess 4chan was right.. never trust a fuckin furfag.

[Computer Guardian]

That may be a fair point but if it is alright with others here I would prefer to keep things contiguous when it comes to this issue for those who happen by. THOUGH if it isn't entertaining enough I can refrain from updating this thread. So please tell me what you guys want

I'd say ask Null and the mods about moving any pale moon/moonchild related things to the Open Source thread so more people can see it. if they agree, then feel free to move to the open source thread and give updates over time. But if they decline the request, then I'd say keep updating this thread, as it give those curious for more insight to the inner workings of the development of Pale Moon.

 

[Kot Johansson]

I'm pretty sure most people stopped caring at this point and moved back to the Open Source thread, and thus discussion would be much better there instead of treating this like a containment thread.

I'd say ask Null and the mods about moving any pale moon/moonchild related things to the Open Source thread so more people can see it. if they agree, then feel free to move to the open source thread and give updates over time.

I'd propose to make a dedicated Moonchild & Pale Moon forums thread in Prospering Grounds for the Community Watch section instead, after all they are a lolcow community worthy of their own thread, plus this thread and the MyPal drama thread could be merged with it so we don't have many redundant threads dedicated to the same group of cows.
@Anne I. O'Nick made a great post which could be reworked into a proper OP for it.

Pale Moon is fork of Firefox, originally gaining popularity off of the tantrum when Mozilla announced they'd stop supporting XUL (an extension framework) for firefox in 2016 on account of it being an unmaintainable piece of shit. This would have broken many popular plugins, giving PM the userbase it needed.

Since then it's a continuous clusterfuck. In 2019 they had a major security breach where malware was inserted into every archived version of the browser.

Moonchild (M. C. Straver), the primary developer, has been known for tantrums relating to distribution: most open source software releases source tarballs which people can use to build the product, and allow people to follow along and contribute. Pale Moon is not like this, instead the only supported/official release is pre-compiled by the developer and offered as a compiled binary that is impossible to verify matches the source code. The ongoing development of the source code has also been closed, offering only snapshots at the same time as a new binary release. Moonchild is vociferously against anyone forking his project, despite itself being a fork.

Despite ragging on Mozilla about dropping XUL and winning the userbase that cared about that, Moonchild boldly has since decided to drop support for XUL as well in 2021: https://www.ghacks.net/2021/04/28/p...refox-extensions-anymore-that-are-not-ported/ . The appropriate drama ensued as you'd expect /g/ spends 5 years stanning a browser as superior in the way that /g/ does, only for the new developer to pull the exact same shit.

In 2021, the meme dream reached fever pitch and someone created Male Poon to rip the shit out of him, which has since been taken down but archived here: https://git.kiwifarms.net/KotJohansson/Male-Poon

There's a starter for 10, and I hope someone will put in the effort needed to whipping this up into a thread of it's own. They all deserve one.

 

[New Tobin Paradigm]

One correction: Pale Moon has been a thing since 2009 and it started as just a rebuild with better than default optz at the time plus a 64bit version before Waterfox even did it. Which was basically useless cause the reason Mozilla didn't do win64 yet was because there were no plugins or of the handful of binary xpcom extensions supporting it not to mention people's ram deficient computers. Also user agent sniffing sites breaking at Win64 in the ua string.

Best to mine the timeline page which of course is out of date post-insanity http://www.palemoon.org/history.shtml .. I am sure I will be written out of the revised version and likely blamed for it not already being up to date .. somehow.

 

[juicerBNR34]

"Tobin, you fat fuck(...)"

 

[khronosschoty]

I included it Aidan.

But seriously though i do not understand the people wanting palemoon besides vague grunts of "muh bloat" as if firefox or chromium aren't faster than palemoon(BTW palemoon is slow). I get wanting more browsers but old ass firefox is not a good base for this. Frankly modern firefox isn't a good place to start either.
You can either work with WebKitGTK devs to actually make it more usable(they are also working on experimental extension support which i think is great)
You can go the route of SerenityOS and make your own browser from scratch.
You can even hard fork Chromium if you don't mind bothering with one of the largest codebases ever.
Even mozilla wanted to kill of firefox partially in favor of newer stuff via the servo project. But they were too incompetent to do it.

Some people prefer the direction the web was headed before Google hijacked the browser world. A lot of people with a different vision were involved in creating, polishing, and extending the technologies that became, or originated with Netscape. In all honesty I would say that the devs that were involved in the creation of Netscape Navigator were largely better at what they did, and without a doubt more competent and possessed a more fair and decent vision.

Mozilla basically sold out to Google and others for the $$$ and has fundamentally failed in the core mission or at least what some people felt was the Mozilla core mission -- A Free and open web based on free and open standards.

In short some people just want to continue on and don't feel the need to chase after Google's approval.

A lot of people ask questions / make assertions concerning how people just want a browser that works. The assertion part is that a browser should render and work the way modern web sites that function the way Google dictates. The truth is, many of us are not interested in that approach and chasing after modern (Google) standards is therefore a waste of time and effort; and for all practical purposes impossible.

 

[New Tobin Paradigm]

"Tobin, you fat fuck(...)"

Totally.

 

[New Tobin Paradigm]

WELL.. it seems that the REAL threat to open source code behind my past distasteful actions is finally revealed just as I said. Moonchild has IP Banned my home connection as well as the two Binary Outcast servers from accessing his Gitea instance today.. For literally no reason just two days before he releases a new version of his shit browser.

Given that he doesn't plan to offer tarballs anymore on the archive site of the Mozilla Public License covered source code making the repository the only source of which I have been denied and without any way to contact him (email from me is also banned) .. I suppose that come Tuesday he will be in violation of the MPL. This action is nothing short of an attempt to restrict source code from ever getting into my hands and goes well behind closing development should those tarballs fail to materialize on Tuesday when he releases his shitbrick update.

As cited in this thread's title.. Never trust a furry or his faggoty band of cucks. At this point I am truly just like everyone else being fucked over by that cunt.

 

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Oh he has also IP banned me from his Cross-Reference service as well .. CLEARLY he intends to deny me source code not JUST developmental details. So I can't access xref.palemoon.org or repo.palemoon.org from my home connection nor the servers. But his other services remain open.

EDIT - BTW Ghacks. https://www.ghacks.net/2022/05/05/f...ng-your-browser-verification/#comment-4521078

 

[New Tobin Paradigm]

As a matter of public record (that Moonchild tries to hide away) I want to put up the first several posts from my thread I made the day Moonzilla betrayed me.. Mainly because I make reference to it in my Mar 20, 2022 opening 4chan cross-post.

 

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Never ends does it.. My ghacks comments aren't sitting well with the forum thread.

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=28227&p=227341#p227338

More private communications.. I am sure they will be as accurately reported to Moonzilla as they were in the previous post. Least SOMEONE had the balls to copy and paste what I initally said.No doubt that post will be removed or edited and Moonchild's response will continue to not reflect reality.

As an aside, you guys do realize that while I am reporting and also responding to drama that happens.. Moonchild seems to be the one who initiates it every time. Have you guys considered potential lolcow status of him.. He is exceptionally easy to piss off as mere existence of something or someone he doesn't like can do it. Not that I want to detract from my own chances in that arena but still.. I understand the farm's mission while he never will!

 

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Welp his response is in.. Still maintaining the falsehood of "damage" and committing a crime.

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=28227&p=227341#p227342

What crime? Severing his DNS from my infrastructure? Shutting down a server that was mine? What crime have I committed and in what jurisdiction would it be in? What law was it? ALSO, if I committed a crime, wouldn't he have also committed a similar crime when he tried to download BinOC and personal files from a server outside the scope of access he was given?

As for the MPL.. I clearly said here and on GHacks that if he attempts to restrict source code on Tuesday for the next release by his IP Blocks and not releasing a source tarball (or does and blocks access to that) then he would indeed be in violation on Tuesday. Even when confronted with a public post of exactly what I said he still tries to lie and manipulate what was said.

EDIT -- AHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHA he removed it AND as predicted edited the post saying exactly what I actually said on GHacks!

ANOTHER EDIT -- He is watching this thread. About time. Maybe he will come here and respond. That could be a lot of fuckin fun eh? But he won't. We could have it out once and for all in neutral territory and sort shit.. But I forgot he doesn't want to sort shit.. He doesn't even want mutual seperate existance.. He merely wants to disrupt any potential for a REAL competitor one who can match his project's scope and capabilities. Which is why he IP Banned me in the first place.

tl;dr "There can be no peace as long as Tobin lives..."

What a pompous ass.

 

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Well here we go.. https://binaryoutcast.com/projects/interlink/release-notes/

Interlink Mail & News 52.9.8165 is finally released on the Aura Runtime Environment 5.0.0. with a very special (less offensive) recount of major events to date. Now I can take a fuckin rest and play vidja games until the next bit of horseshit comes about.

Good day, farmers.

 

[WhiteNight]

I admit, I tried out Pale Moon for a while years ago. It worked well at first, but I had increasing problems with broken sites, glitches, and upgrade woes. Then, there were the developers on the forum and on GitHub, who always seemed cranky and rude and unpleasant to work with. So, with the browser problems, and witnessing things like the OpenBSD debacle, I got off that sinking ship.

But, I do remember wondering how a team of cantankerous developers with less than stellar conflict skills were somehow able to work with each other. Now I have an answer. All it took was a squabble over some technical issue (or whatever) to blow up and turn the two principals into Valmont and Merteuil. Maybe I should only be surprised it took so long.

@New Tobin Paradigm no idea the significance of the last screenshot; he added the words "and future"?

 

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Just that he plays this edit game a lot. That's all. Maybe THAT'S why he hates IRC so much.. You can't edit what you say!

 

[888Flux]

no one cares you retarded faggot

 

[OutlawHusbando]

I admit, I tried out Pale Moon for a while years ago. It worked well at first, but I had increasing problems with broken sites, glitches, and upgrade woes. Then, there were the developers on the forum and on GitHub, who always seemed cranky and rude and unpleasant to work with. So, with the browser problems, and witnessing things like the OpenBSD debacle, I got off that sinking ship.

But, I do remember wondering how a team of cantankerous developers with less than stellar conflict skills were somehow able to work with each other. Now I have an answer. All it took was a squabble over some technical issue (or whatever) to blow up and turn the two principals into Valmont and Merteuil. Maybe I should only be surprised it took so long.

@New Tobin Paradigm no idea the significance of the last screenshot; he added the words "and future"?

WebCompatibility is the most serious problem with Palemoon, currently, and fat ass scared away many potential developers for the project, so now Palemoon is left with a small team and is unable to implement WebComponents.

 

[New Tobin Paradigm]

Seems my Release Notes summary accounting of events was not well received. Of course it has the normal distorted and made up bullshit he has previously said, rewritten, hidden away, brought back, etc. Also, he will not allow anyone to publicly comment on it because debate and questions detract from his "Murmur Control"

https://forum.palemoon.org/viewtopic.php?f=65&t=28265

One thing I do want to touch on from there is the out-of-context IRC snipplet from that day: Here is the FULL transcript:

Dec 03 18:30:12 <Daisenryaku> when will 29.4.2.1.2.3 be released ?
Dec 03 19:34:57 <NewTobinParadigm> well if you weren't a fuckin moron u'd know the release schedule is documented on the Pale Moon Developer Site.. but since you are in this channel.. obviously you are a fuckin moron
Dec 04 11:10:07 <McI> a new version https://github.com/JustOff/github-wc-polyfill/releases/tag/1.2.9
Dec 04 11:10:08 <endre> just pastin this here for the fuckin morons (like me):
Dec 04 11:10:10 <endre> Pale Moon Version - CLOSED TREE - Intended Release Date Type of Release
Dec 04 11:10:12 <endre> 29.4.3 2021-12-07 2021-12-14 Minor/Security Release
Dec 04 11:14:02 <PissToken> Tobin vs the Radioactive Cretins
Dec 04 11:15:26 <NewTobinParadigm> you could just check the page
Dec 04 11:16:58 <McI> still this can happen, though as Moonchild posted: Please be patient as I process the responses, evaluate the results and potentially adjust our roadmap.
Dec 04 11:18:30 <KotCzarny> its not mr just a guy from the internet
Dec 04 12:02:17 <NewTobinParadigm> Well maybe we will just cancel the Pale Moon project.. it is what the majority of the population of this planet wants anyway
Dec 04 12:54:21 <NewTobinParadigm> only little babybitches use /ignore
Dec 04 12:54:49 <NewTobinParadigm> they literally cannot face a superior force so they stick their fingers in their ears and go LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU
Dec 04 12:54:58 <NewTobinParadigm> what a bunch of cunts
Dec 04 17:43:21 <Daisenryaku> LA LA LA I CUNT HEAR YOU
Dec 04 17:58:36 <L29Ah> is it me or https://0xacab.org/leap/bitmask-vpn doesn't werk?
Dec 04 19:03:35 <Daisenryaku> doesn't work for me either, using gh polyfill release -1 (the prev one to the one released today)
Dec 04 19:04:42 <Daisenryaku> gotta add that url to the gitlab-dark-theme repo where JustOff pulls his gitlab matching code from
Dec 04 19:09:59 <Daisenryaku> ah, you already commented on gh.
Dec 04 22:27:05 -glguy- [Server Notice] Hi, we'll be restarting this server in about a day (Dec 6 04:30 UTC) for software updates. If you'd like to reconnect ahead of time irc.libera.chat will get you to a different server.
Dec 05 09:16:37 <Daisenryaku> lucky me, my most important add-on still works after FUEL removal (cliget 1.2.3)
Dec 05 09:33:07 <McI> most still work here, just Extension Preferences Menu and a legacy one (which is not essential) don't
Dec 05 11:11:25 <NewTobinParadigm> maybe we should just remove add-ons completely
Dec 05 11:11:41 <NewTobinParadigm> the whole add-ons manager, manifest parser, etc
Dec 05 11:11:48 <NewTobinParadigm> just not HAVE add-ons
Dec 05 11:11:51 <NewTobinParadigm> anymore
Dec 05 11:12:09 <NewTobinParadigm> or more properly not have extensions and themes
Dec 05 11:12:18 <NewTobinParadigm> such a waste of resources
Dec 05 11:12:28 <NewTobinParadigm> that NO one cares enough about
Dec 05 11:12:41 <NewTobinParadigm> how ddoes that sound McI
Dec 05 11:13:36 <NewTobinParadigm> OH THAT'S right you have your fingers in your ears and your thumb up your ass.. impressive feat actually but you continue to pretend you aren't seeing what I am saying
Dec 05 11:13:54 <NewTobinParadigm> so you will pretend you don't know that we are planning to remove extensions and themes
Dec 05 11:14:36 <NewTobinParadigm> no service no capability
Dec 05 11:14:52 <NewTobinParadigm> no more add-ons no more complaints ABOUT add-ons simple as that
Dec 05 11:15:12 <NewTobinParadigm> how does that sound hook54321 therobin McI Case_Of KotCzarny kc cabtutts ArRay Greywool superkuh deu stux|away franstam Daisenryaku s1b1 switchnode asdflkj_sh abff NewTobinParadigm endre L29Ah Hobbyboy @ChanServ
Dec 05 11:15:41 <franstam> NewTobinParadigm, that sucks
Dec 05 11:16:57 <NewTobinParadigm> franstam: that this channel is directly dictating the direction we are gonna go based on their petty bitching? yeah perhaps
Dec 05 11:17:01 <NewTobinParadigm> but it is WHAT THEY WANT
Dec 05 11:18:59 <franstam> no way
Dec 05 11:51:41 <cabtutts> no, actually, this channel serves to rub tobin's overinflated ego
Dec 05 11:52:40 <endre> someone lookup how to ignore a nick hilighting me in weechat
Dec 05 12:05:29 <NewTobinParadigm> endre
Dec 05 12:05:30 <NewTobinParadigm> endre
Dec 05 12:05:30 <NewTobinParadigm> endre
Dec 05 12:05:30 <NewTobinParadigm> endre
Dec 05 12:05:31 <NewTobinParadigm> endre
Dec 05 16:36:58 <Daisenryaku> oh nice. i've always been pro adding useful functionality to the browser directly, rather than having to resort to addons.
Dec 05 17:16:58 <NewTobinParadigm> nop
Dec 05 17:17:04 <NewTobinParadigm> no useful functionality allowed
Dec 05 17:17:57 <NewTobinParadigm> gonna be removing more features
Dec 05 17:18:09 <NewTobinParadigm> like zoom and toolbar customization
Dec 05 17:18:28 <NewTobinParadigm> also tabbed browsing
Dec 05 17:18:33 <NewTobinParadigm> people keep too many tabs open
Dec 05 17:18:47 <NewTobinParadigm> so we are gonna make it one window per site
Dec 05 17:19:33 <NewTobinParadigm> AND seeing as most of this rewritten code will be new we can exclude it from the source
Dec 05 17:19:47 <NewTobinParadigm> as it is propritary
Dec 05 17:20:19 <NewTobinParadigm> isn't that wonderful Daisenryaku
Dec 05 17:20:30 <Daisenryaku> you should stop sniffing glue, it aint good for your brain
Dec 05 17:20:40 <NewTobinParadigm> and you have no power to stop me
Dec 05 17:20:54 <NewTobinParadigm> you can't stop any of us
Dec 05 17:21:01 <NewTobinParadigm> because you have no choice
Dec 05 17:21:10 <NewTobinParadigm> but to accept or be exterminated
Dec 05 17:22:00 <Daisenryaku> my choices are to use palemoon, or run firefox from a ubuntu rootfs
Dec 05 17:22:14 <Daisenryaku> if you turn palemoon into a piece of shit, i'll have to do the latter
Dec 05 17:22:56 <NewTobinParadigm> I am going to do exactly that
Dec 05 17:23:16 <NewTobinParadigm> I am out to ruin the Pale Moon project. I have been for 7 years
Dec 05 17:23:19 <Daisenryaku> well, then have fun calling yourself the king of the turd
Dec 05 17:23:27 <NewTobinParadigm> to form it into MY project or destory it out right
Dec 05 17:23:32 <NewTobinParadigm> and no one can stop me
Dec 05 17:23:41 <NewTobinParadigm> especially not little ol you
Dec 05 17:23:48 <Daisenryaku> :>
Dec 05 17:24:03 <Daisenryaku> at least some words of honesty
Dec 05 17:24:13 <Daisenryaku> or *last, rather
Dec 05 17:24:20 <NewTobinParadigm> there hasn't been a Pale Moon project since 26.5
Dec 05 17:24:27 <Daisenryaku> ah?
Dec 05 17:24:28 <NewTobinParadigm> it has been the Tobin project okly
Dec 05 17:24:45 <NewTobinParadigm> I am the only one who knows how anything actually works
Dec 05 17:24:47 <Daisenryaku> how did you get a handle on MC ?
Dec 05 17:24:53 <NewTobinParadigm> he quit years ago
Dec 05 17:24:59 <NewTobinParadigm> just a sock account now
Dec 05 17:25:20 <NewTobinParadigm> why do you think I killed the channel
Dec 05 17:25:54 <Daisenryaku> dunno, i guess because of your megalomaniatic paranoia problem ?
Dec 05 17:26:36 <NewTobinParadigm> just all to keep little freaks like you off gaurd.. when anyone could be next no one can form true resistance not even this channel or the subreddit
Dec 05 17:26:52 <NewTobinParadigm> little pockets can't accept an influx of random personalities
Dec 05 17:26:59 <NewTobinParadigm> they can't stay organized that way
Dec 05 17:27:36 <Daisenryaku> are you citing "the art of war" or what ?
Dec 05 17:28:36 <NewTobinParadigm> half the so called war was constructed over a long period of time just to generate hype
Dec 05 17:28:45 <NewTobinParadigm> the rest well.. who cares
Dec 05 17:31:39 <NewTobinParadigm> you guys really are the dumbest of the dumb
Dec 05 17:32:23 <Daisenryaku> how so
Dec 05 17:32:41 <Daisenryaku> because we didnt see through your evil plot of world domination?
Dec 05 17:33:31 <NewTobinParadigm> nah because you believe there is an evil plot of world domination.
Dec 05 17:35:56 <NewTobinParadigm> HERE is the truth boys and girls.. You people will believe anything as long as it casts my self or the various projects in a bad light EVEN if it comes from me.
Dec 05 17:36:39 <NewTobinParadigm> It would be sad if I had any sympathy for any of you sub-human creatures.

Deception. Distortion, Manipulation. It is all Moonchild knows anymore. Obviously I was screwing with these people pretty hard in December. Out of context quoting to support one's argument invalidates said argument. Tactical Error.

 

[New Tobin Paradigm]

no one cares you retarded faggot

Well I am glad you cared enough to tell me that! Thank you

WebCompatibility is the most serious problem with Palemoon, currently, and fat ass scared away many potential developers for the project, so now Palemoon is left with a small team and is unable to implement WebComponents.

You're not entirely wrong. Though I would suggest that is an oversimplification. We could have been working on WebComponents much much earlier but Moonchild wouldn't allow it when brought up in late 2018 after release of Pale Moon 28 for a few versions. It wasn't until late 2019 before he would accept the critical importance that I knew it would become as it started hitting the mainstream web. As a matter of public record, I was the one who encouraged g4jc to look into it while Moonchild stated he wanted nothing to do with it regardless. I tried to coordinate some sort of structured landing of the work he did at least until he totally flamed out calling the importance of WebComponents "pm drama".

This all might still be up on glob's logbot of the Freenode channel. I could try and look for it if you are serious about the background.

 

[guy15]

What's the problem with allowing Pale Moon to use old add-ons that are not maintained anymore?

 

[New Tobin Paradigm]

What's the problem with allowing Pale Moon to use old add-ons that are not maintained anymore?

Not much from a security or privacy aspect.

The real issue with old Firefox extensions on Pale Moon is the fact that they were designed for Firefox and Firefox at a specific time. Since Pale Moon isn't verbatium Firefox even from where the frontend code originated.. Anything targeting it expecting it to be exactly as designed for whatever Firefox version it was for may or may not work. With how Pale Moon has been ported (twice) to later platforms this adds an additional layer of the backend not being from Firefox verbatim either and any sort of assured compatibility is thrown WELL out the window.

Pale Moon today is an evolved and altered bit of application-specific code that largely originates from Firefox ESR 24 and the platform code largely orginates from Gecko ESR 52. This combination of frontend vs backend not to mention any changes thereof is simply not what the extension was originally designed for. UX changes, functional changes, structural changes can all make an extension fail. When it does or otherwise malfunctions.. Users will more than not come to the vendor of the application for support.. NOT the person who wrote the extension. Namely, Pale Moon and more times than not be totally disappointed. It is simply not feasible to expect support from any vendor for 19 thousand extensions targeting dozens of versions of an application running on something it was not explicitly designed for.

The base problem then is that Pale Moon isn't Firefox and it can NEVER be Firefox again no matter how many hacks or workarounds or in-place twiddling is done and expecting it to be simply became unrealistic the MOMENT Pale Moon did something Mozilla did not do or did it differently. It is a perception and expectation problem more than any technical issue.. Technical issues can be solved but because they are old and unmaintained.. They never will be until someone does it and if it is important enough to bother with surely it will REMAIN important and should be forked and given new life.

But what do I know.. I only spent years researching and expounding this. As well as, creating and funding the infrastructure that would allow a Pale Moon Add-ons Ecosystem to exist. My reward? Well.. I think you know what that was.

Hope this helps clarify things some.