War Don’t believe those who say ending Roe v Wade will leave society largely intact - The Guardian reeeeally needs a Xanax prescription (and so does Android Raptor)

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Now that the dust has begun to settle after the inital explosive news that the US supreme court is poised to overrule the right to abortion and that Justice Samuel Alito’s draft opinion in Dobbs v Jackson Women’s Health Organization represents what a majority of the court initially voted to do, among the most revealing ways to understand the devastation the court appears ready to wreak on America’s long march toward “liberty and justice for all” is to examine the kinds of arguments being made in the opinion’s defense.

The argument that such a ruling would simply return a divisive issue to the people had long since been widely dismantled. It certainly wouldn’t be returned to the people most profoundly affected once women were told they may have to remain pregnant despite whatever urgent reasons they might have for seeking a safe and legal abortion. It couldn’t be described as returning the abortion issue to the states, now that the possibility of a nationwide ban that the supreme court might uphold is on the horizon. And to the extent the issue is returned to the states, it would be returned to state legislatures so gerrymandered that they often represent the views of a distinct minority of the people anyway.

The argument that “only” abortion is involved because Alito’s draft assures readers that the supreme court’s opinion won’t be treated as precedent for anything that doesn’t involve killing an unborn human is both profoundly insulting and manifestly misleading. It insults every sentient person by minimizing the significance of commandeering the bodies and lives of half the population – and re-inserting government power into every family. And it misleads every reader of Alito’s words by suggesting that a court has the power to shape how future lawmakers and judges will build on its decisions and the reasoning underlying them. Alito’s hollow promise brings to mind similar assurances in notorious cases like Bush v Gore, is inconsistent with how the judicial process works, and wouldn’t offer any solace to anyone who might become pregnant or whose miscarriage might be treated as a crime scene for police to investigate.

The foolishness of the argument that there’s nothing to see here other than the future of abortion law is underscored by some of what is said in its support. We’re told not to worry about the future of decisions like Loving v Virginia, ensuring the right to marry someone of a different race than your own because, after all, Justice Clarence Thomas is in an interracial marriage. We’re told not to worry about the right to same-sex marriage because, after all, Justice Brett Kavanaugh would never vote to overturn Obergefell v Hodges, the most iconic opinion written by his proud mentor, Anthony Kennedy – the man who left the court only after he had hand-picked Kavanaugh as his successor. We’re told not to worry about contraception (despite the way quite a few people view Plan B or IUDs as forms of abortion) because even supreme court nominees like Amy Coney Barrett, who were cagey about just how “settled” a precedent they deemed Roe v Wade, said they couldn’t imagine anybody today challenging Griswold v Connecticut. All that prognostication is cold comfort to the millions of people whose lives are profoundly affected by these shaky predictions.

The most substantial argument is one that is equally fallacious but more sophisticated and in some ways more devious and dangerous: it is the argument that supreme court reversals of precedent, like the reversal of Plessy v Ferguson by Brown v Board of Education, are often to be welcomed as needed course corrections, and that this “course correction” wouldn’t be the first time the supreme court has rolled back decades-old constitutional rights. The many commentators who persisted in describing Alito’s draft in those terms – as an unprecedented retreat in the arc of ever-expanding rights – have recently been denounced as either inexcusably ignorant or deliberately duplicitous by distinguished scholars like Yale’s Akhil Amar, who says that every first-year law student learns that the very same thing happened during FDR’s second term as president, when the supreme court in 1937 in West Coast Hotel v Parrish overturned a long line of decisions that had blocked minimum wage and maximum hours and other worker-protection laws in the name of employers’ rights of “private property” and the “liberty of contract”. To be sure, Amar’s argument echoes that of the Alito draft, which cites Parrish and says, in effect, “nothing to see here, we did the same thing before” when we rolled back the liberty of contract line of decisions in 1937.

Justice Alito and Professor Amar are simply wrong: profoundly so. That so-called (and quite misleadingly labeled) “switch in time that saved the nine” was nothing like the switch that Dobbs would represent. The 1937 “switch” was no sudden politically driven turnabout but was in fact the culmination of long-simmering movements in legal and economic thought – movements that were reflected both in scholarship and in judicial opinions from the earliest days of the 20th century in places like Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes’ dissent in Lochner v New York insisting that “the 14th amendment does not enact Mr Herbert Spencer’s social statics,” movements that represented the growing conviction that the “freedom” to work at low wages and in miserable conditions was an illusion lacking both moral and legal foundations and one that simply helped perpetuate economic inequality and the exploitation of relatively powerless, not-yet-unionized workers by wealthy and powerful corporations.

Indeed, it is noteworthy that West Coast Hotel v Parrishthe 29 March 1937 decision that is usually marked as the pivot point in the great constitutional upheaval – was handed down by precisely the same set of nine justices as the nine who had rendered a decision pointing in the opposite direction less than a year earlier, on 1 June 1936, in Morehead v New York ex rel Tipaldo. One justice of the nine, a moderate Republican named Owen J Roberts, who had been rethinking his position on the underlying legal theories, had foreshadowed his shifting views by writing a landmark opinion upholding milk price regulation, Nebbia v New York, by a 5-4 vote in 1934 – less than two months after the court had upheld a state mortgage moratorium law by a 5-4 vote in Home Building & Loan Ass’n v Blaisdell, a decision clearly foreshadowing the 1937 repudiation of Lochner’s legacy by reconceiving the meaning of the constitution’s clause forbidding all state impairments of the obligation of contracts.

That history is important to keep in mind if one is to understand the depth of the error made by those who seek to compare the 2022 tsunami that Dobbs would represent with the gradual shift in current represented by the 1937 movement away from liberty of contract to protection of workers and consumers. The head-spinning and altogether untimely switch in the supreme court’s abortion jurisprudence that Dobbs would represent – if the decision the court announces late this June or early July is in substance what the leaked Alito draft indicated it would be – will reflect not the steady maturation of a long-developing jurisprudential movement but the crude payoff to a partisan political program to take over the federal judiciary, one beginning with Ronald Reagan’s presidency and the rise of the Federalist Society, and advancing with supreme court appointments made by Republican presidents all of whom lost the popular vote (George W Bush, appointing Justice Alito and Chief Justice John Roberts; Donald J Trump, appointing Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett), and made in circumstances of dubious legitimacy.

Professor Amar treats as laughably naïve the observation by ACLU national legal director and Georgetown law professor David Cole that, although “Parrish took away some rights of business owners … its real effect was to expand rights protections for millions of Americans subject to exploitation by powerful corporations.” Amar’s rebuttal? He says, and I’m serious here, that it’d be equally legitimate to say that “Dobbs’ real effect would be to expand rights protection for millions of innocent, unborn Americans … unborn humans, subject to extermination by society.”
It’s hard to know where to begin in unraveling that alleged parallel. Suffice it to note that the status as rights-bearing persons of embryos and fetuses remains a matter of profound sectarian controversy in America and throughout the world while no such controversy attends the status as rights-bearing persons of the array of workers whose rights, at least under laws designed to limit economic exploitation if not directly under the constitution itself, were indisputably expanded by virtue of the Parrish decision and the overturning of the Lochner line of cases.

Perhaps no less important is the indisputable fact that, although there remain a few commentators who continue to think that Lochner was rightly decided and Parrish was wrong, there is a nearly universal consensus, certainly covering the ideological spectrum on the current supreme court, that the “rights” protected by Lochner and the other decisions that Parrish tossed into the dustbin of history were not constitutionally sacrosanct, and that inequalities of bargaining power prevented the common-law baseline that Lochner treated as immune to legislative modification from having any special constitutional status. At the same time, the notions of personal autonomy and bodily integrity that provide the constitutional foundation for the substantive “liberty” at stake in cases like Roe and Casey are almost universally accepted as real, although deep disagreements remain about whether, to what degree, and from what point in fetal development the protection of the unborn fetus can properly trump that liberty.

The upshot is that the radical change in law and society that Dobbs would represent truly has no parallel in the history of the supreme court or in the history of the United States. As David Cole writes, the “proper analogy is not Brown overruling Plessy, but a decision reviving Plessy, reversing Brown, and relegating Black people to enforced segregation after nearly 70 years of equal protection.” For, as Jamelle Bouie rightly observed, “equal standing is undermined and eroded when the state can effectively seize your person for its own ends – that is, when it can force you to give birth.” Whether or not one compares that compulsion and forced labor to literal enslavement, as I did in my 1973 article on Roe v Wade, attempts to minimize the huge retrogression this would represent must be dismissed as little more than shameful efforts to camouflage the carnage the supreme court of the United States is about to unleash both on its own legitimacy and, even more important, on the people in whose name it wields the power of judicial review.
  • Laurence H Tribe is the Carl M Loeb University Professor of Constitutional Law Emeritus at Harvard University, the author of numerous books and articles, a distinguished supreme court advocate, and holder of 11 honorary degrees

Literally half this article has nothing to do with Dobbs or Roe.

"If the law's on your side, argue the law. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If neither are on your side, throw an autistic shitfit".
 
No but you can get pregnant cat spayed, which is effectively an abortion since it kills the kitten fetuses. I've helped do that very thing, by helping get some of the strays at my complex fixed. Better than bringing even more unwanted kittens into the world that are likely just going to suffer.

Having an abortion is a way to take responsibility. Sometimes it's the most responsible choice of all.
I volunteered at an animal shelter in the back building surgery kits for spay/neuter surgeries. Honestly, the vets would cry and leave if they had to abort a full term pregnancy as part of the surgery. They would say they were so sorry as they put the squirming kittens and puppies in the biohazard can to be smothered to death. Note that the attitude of the shelter was 100% different if the kittens or puppies were one day born because this was a NO KILL SHELTER. Unless they were one day from being born. Part of the reason I stopped volunteering.
 
Yet you went out of your way to discuss it. I merely pointed out your idiotic logic when you compared spaying a pregnant cat to aborting human fetuses as equivalent. Even someone like Tribe doesn't go there because its absolutely retarded.
Wait til you hear about how many human embryos IVF clinics destroy on a daily basis
I volunteered at an animal shelter in the back building surgery kits for spay/neuter surgeries. Honestly, the vets would cry and leave if they had to abort a full term pregnancy as part of the surgery. They would say they were so sorry as they put the squirming kittens and puppies in the biohazard can to be smothered to death. Note that the attitude of the shelter was 100% different if the kittens or puppies were one day born because this was a NO KILL SHELTER. Unless they were one day from being born. Part of the reason I stopped volunteering.
Smothered to death? Really? Not euthanized using the drugs they should already have on hand?

X to doubt
 
Are you asking me what I think we should do about tarded hoes who can't stop fucking without bc?
Personally, I was thinking of that scene from Fururama where Farnsworth says to Hermes (who’s about to jump off a balcony) something about other people needing his organs. Not sure the quality of ho organs, but at least there’s no extra BC hormones to worry about…

I want more posts about the insidious dismantling of medical privacy (thanks @Otterly et. al.) instead more abortion sperging. That’s the real storm that will change the lives of every living human being (or every living human clump of cells).
 
Wait til you hear about how many human embryos IVF clinics destroy on a daily basis

Smothered to death? Really? Not euthanized using the drugs they should already have on hand?

X to doubt
Go volunteer for a shelter then and why does it matter to you anyway? It is just a clump of cells.
 
Smothered to death? Really? Not euthanized using the drugs they should already have on hand?

X to doubt
Do you know how expensive those barbiturates can get

Now keep in mind the average animal shelter budget
Personally, I was thinking of that scene from Fururama where Farnsworth says to Hermes (who’s about to jump off a balcony) something about other people needing his organs. Not sure the quality of ho organs, but at least there’s no extra BC hormones to worry about…

I want more posts about the insidious dismantling of medical privacy (thanks @Otterly et. al.) instead more abortion sperging. That’s the real storm that will change the lives of every living human being (or every living human clump of cells).
The medical privacy thing is the elephant in the room nobody's paying attention to because some hysterical cunts are screaming about their weird book coming to life, and this is almost certainly by SOMEONE'S fucking design because accidents don't fucking happen at the confluence of money and power (read: POLITICS)
 
More like let me abort an embryo so I don't have to put a wet wash cloth over the face of a newborn and tell everyone it died from SIDS (which fun fact, as long as you don't apply any pressure is indistinguishable from suffocation on autopsy)
instead of fantasizing ways to murder children you should start killing yourself. thats tommy tooter levels of vile. fuck off
 
Go volunteer for a shelter then and why does it matter to you anyway? It is just a clump of cells.
I already volunteer with a reptile rescue actually. Abortion for most reptiles is simply putting eggs in the freezer before they can develop. Same with birds. Much more convient than mammals.
 
Most women who get abortions are normies in committed, monogamous relationships and roughly half were using at least one form of birth control when they got pregnant

Even if that weren't the case, if a woman is too irresponsible to use birth control, how the fuck is she responsible enough to care for a damn kid?
#404 Source Not Found
 
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I already volunteer with a reptile rescue actually. Abortion for most reptiles is simply putting eggs in the freezer before they can develop. Same with birds. Much more convient than mammals.
So you would be ok working for an organization that would put -1 day old puppies in the dumpster because they were not worthy of being born yet?
 
Ride the bus? Nigga there is no public transit outside the most downtown urban areas in the Bible belt. I haven't lived within walking distance of a bus stop until the past 5 or so years. The south hates public transit almost as much as it hates women and minorities.
Alright im calling bullshit and telling you immediately to shut your fish lips. You’re purposefully lying to our fine kiwi users to just prove that women “need abortions”. Making me MATI. So in short, shut your dyke mouth and go finger a bitch you lying prick.
 
The foolishness of the argument that there’s nothing to see here other than the future of abortion law is underscored by some of what is said in its support. We’re told not to worry about the future of decisions like Loving v Virginia, ensuring the right to marry someone of a different race than your own because, after all, Justice Clarence Thomas is in an interracial marriage.
The issue why interracial marriage is safe is because it was the intent and specific language of the 14th Amendment to ensure Blacks are treated equally.

We’re told not to worry about the right to same-sex marriage because, after all, Justice Brett Kavanaugh would never vote to overturn Obergefell v Hodges,
State could try but the support is not there. Below is the 2017 March for (traditional) Marriage:
NOM_rally_insert_1_c_Washington_Blade_by_Michael_Key.jpg
From the director of the pro-Traditional marriage group:
"Last year’s March for Marriage blew people away when approximately 400 people attended,”
At its peak it had about 5,000 people per the National Catholic Reporter:
Addressing a crowd estimated at 5,000 by the National Organization for Marriage, march sponsors, Archbishop Joseph Kurtz of Louisville, Ky., described traditional marriage between one man and one woman as a "beautiful truth," saying its protection is necessary to "protect the children."
Now let's compare the best numbers to the worst numbers recently for anti-abortion marches (perhaps during a blizzard):
download (1) (20).jpeg
How was attendance?
The crowd was considerably smaller than recent years, estimated at nearly 50,000 by Catholic News Service.

If Obergefell was overturned, states could ban gay marriage again but I don't believe the energy is there.

Now, if those concerned are worried about their rights and privileges they can always pass a law or an amendment.


P.S. One of the most infuriating things to me is Brits telling us we are running our country wrong. Perhaps we should remind them what happened the last time to interfered too heavily regarding affairs on this continent.
 
Alright im calling bullshit and telling you immediately to shut your fish lips. You’re purposefully lying to our fine kiwi users to just prove that women “need abortions”. Making me MATI. So in short, shut your dyke mouth and go finger a bitch you lying prick.
That's nice but it's not going to make public transit any less non-existent in most of the South. Come down here and see for yourself if you don't believe me.
 
A non-peer reviewed paper published on a pro abortion website?

The Guttmacher Institute is literally an arm of Planned Parenthood.
And lifenews says literally brainless fetuses are just disabled, yet Thunderdomers still share shit from it acting like it's a reliable source
 
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The 1937 “switch” was no sudden politically driven turnabout but was in fact the culmination of long-simmering movements in legal and economic thought – movements that were reflected both in scholarship and in judicial opinions from the earliest days of the 20th century
Lochner, for those keeping score at home, was decided in 1905, and legal thought presumably continued to "simmer" for 32 years until 1937.

But on the other hand:
if the decision the court announces late this June or early July is in substance what the leaked Alito draft indicated it would be – will reflect not the steady maturation of a long-developing jurisprudential movement but the crude payoff to a partisan political program to take over the federal judiciary, one beginning with Ronald Reagan’s presidency and the rise of the Federalist Society, and advancing with supreme court appointments made by Republican presidents
Ronald Reagan's presidency started 42 years ago and yet it's a "sudden turnabout" when (in his retelling) the chud infiltration finally paid off.
 
At 15 I could afford neither fast food nor a greyhound ride. I got money twice a year, at Xmas and my birthday and that was it.

There's also the fact that driving to a whole ass different state costs time as well, which poor women especially tend to not have in abundance especially if they already have kids (which is a good chunk of women who get abortions, women who already have kids and know they can't afford more).
But they can spare the time to fuck? You know, I have a near 100% effective family planning method. In fact it cost about $.10 cents. Go to a first aid kit and take out an Aspirin then keep it between the knees.

See, no fucking no need for an abortion
 
Most women who get abortions are normies in committed, monogamous relationships and roughly half were using at least one form of birth control when they got pregnant

Even if that weren't the case, if a woman is too irresponsible to use birth control, how the fuck is she responsible enough to care for a damn kid?
Why do you guys always do this?

"Most women who get an abortion are 'insert emotionally resonant cases'!"

Only to immediately follow up with

"...And even if that weren't true...!"

Not a dig at you personally, but i've talked to other people with similar opinions, and this exact framing always comes up
 
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