War Don’t believe those who say ending Roe v Wade will leave society largely intact - The Guardian reeeeally needs a Xanax prescription (and so does Android Raptor)

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Now that the dust has begun to settle after the inital explosive news that the US supreme court is poised to overrule the right to abortion and that Justice Samuel Alito’s draft opinion in Dobbs v Jackson Women’s Health Organization represents what a majority of the court initially voted to do, among the most revealing ways to understand the devastation the court appears ready to wreak on America’s long march toward “liberty and justice for all” is to examine the kinds of arguments being made in the opinion’s defense.

The argument that such a ruling would simply return a divisive issue to the people had long since been widely dismantled. It certainly wouldn’t be returned to the people most profoundly affected once women were told they may have to remain pregnant despite whatever urgent reasons they might have for seeking a safe and legal abortion. It couldn’t be described as returning the abortion issue to the states, now that the possibility of a nationwide ban that the supreme court might uphold is on the horizon. And to the extent the issue is returned to the states, it would be returned to state legislatures so gerrymandered that they often represent the views of a distinct minority of the people anyway.

The argument that “only” abortion is involved because Alito’s draft assures readers that the supreme court’s opinion won’t be treated as precedent for anything that doesn’t involve killing an unborn human is both profoundly insulting and manifestly misleading. It insults every sentient person by minimizing the significance of commandeering the bodies and lives of half the population – and re-inserting government power into every family. And it misleads every reader of Alito’s words by suggesting that a court has the power to shape how future lawmakers and judges will build on its decisions and the reasoning underlying them. Alito’s hollow promise brings to mind similar assurances in notorious cases like Bush v Gore, is inconsistent with how the judicial process works, and wouldn’t offer any solace to anyone who might become pregnant or whose miscarriage might be treated as a crime scene for police to investigate.

The foolishness of the argument that there’s nothing to see here other than the future of abortion law is underscored by some of what is said in its support. We’re told not to worry about the future of decisions like Loving v Virginia, ensuring the right to marry someone of a different race than your own because, after all, Justice Clarence Thomas is in an interracial marriage. We’re told not to worry about the right to same-sex marriage because, after all, Justice Brett Kavanaugh would never vote to overturn Obergefell v Hodges, the most iconic opinion written by his proud mentor, Anthony Kennedy – the man who left the court only after he had hand-picked Kavanaugh as his successor. We’re told not to worry about contraception (despite the way quite a few people view Plan B or IUDs as forms of abortion) because even supreme court nominees like Amy Coney Barrett, who were cagey about just how “settled” a precedent they deemed Roe v Wade, said they couldn’t imagine anybody today challenging Griswold v Connecticut. All that prognostication is cold comfort to the millions of people whose lives are profoundly affected by these shaky predictions.

The most substantial argument is one that is equally fallacious but more sophisticated and in some ways more devious and dangerous: it is the argument that supreme court reversals of precedent, like the reversal of Plessy v Ferguson by Brown v Board of Education, are often to be welcomed as needed course corrections, and that this “course correction” wouldn’t be the first time the supreme court has rolled back decades-old constitutional rights. The many commentators who persisted in describing Alito’s draft in those terms – as an unprecedented retreat in the arc of ever-expanding rights – have recently been denounced as either inexcusably ignorant or deliberately duplicitous by distinguished scholars like Yale’s Akhil Amar, who says that every first-year law student learns that the very same thing happened during FDR’s second term as president, when the supreme court in 1937 in West Coast Hotel v Parrish overturned a long line of decisions that had blocked minimum wage and maximum hours and other worker-protection laws in the name of employers’ rights of “private property” and the “liberty of contract”. To be sure, Amar’s argument echoes that of the Alito draft, which cites Parrish and says, in effect, “nothing to see here, we did the same thing before” when we rolled back the liberty of contract line of decisions in 1937.

Justice Alito and Professor Amar are simply wrong: profoundly so. That so-called (and quite misleadingly labeled) “switch in time that saved the nine” was nothing like the switch that Dobbs would represent. The 1937 “switch” was no sudden politically driven turnabout but was in fact the culmination of long-simmering movements in legal and economic thought – movements that were reflected both in scholarship and in judicial opinions from the earliest days of the 20th century in places like Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes’ dissent in Lochner v New York insisting that “the 14th amendment does not enact Mr Herbert Spencer’s social statics,” movements that represented the growing conviction that the “freedom” to work at low wages and in miserable conditions was an illusion lacking both moral and legal foundations and one that simply helped perpetuate economic inequality and the exploitation of relatively powerless, not-yet-unionized workers by wealthy and powerful corporations.

Indeed, it is noteworthy that West Coast Hotel v Parrishthe 29 March 1937 decision that is usually marked as the pivot point in the great constitutional upheaval – was handed down by precisely the same set of nine justices as the nine who had rendered a decision pointing in the opposite direction less than a year earlier, on 1 June 1936, in Morehead v New York ex rel Tipaldo. One justice of the nine, a moderate Republican named Owen J Roberts, who had been rethinking his position on the underlying legal theories, had foreshadowed his shifting views by writing a landmark opinion upholding milk price regulation, Nebbia v New York, by a 5-4 vote in 1934 – less than two months after the court had upheld a state mortgage moratorium law by a 5-4 vote in Home Building & Loan Ass’n v Blaisdell, a decision clearly foreshadowing the 1937 repudiation of Lochner’s legacy by reconceiving the meaning of the constitution’s clause forbidding all state impairments of the obligation of contracts.

That history is important to keep in mind if one is to understand the depth of the error made by those who seek to compare the 2022 tsunami that Dobbs would represent with the gradual shift in current represented by the 1937 movement away from liberty of contract to protection of workers and consumers. The head-spinning and altogether untimely switch in the supreme court’s abortion jurisprudence that Dobbs would represent – if the decision the court announces late this June or early July is in substance what the leaked Alito draft indicated it would be – will reflect not the steady maturation of a long-developing jurisprudential movement but the crude payoff to a partisan political program to take over the federal judiciary, one beginning with Ronald Reagan’s presidency and the rise of the Federalist Society, and advancing with supreme court appointments made by Republican presidents all of whom lost the popular vote (George W Bush, appointing Justice Alito and Chief Justice John Roberts; Donald J Trump, appointing Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh, and Amy Coney Barrett), and made in circumstances of dubious legitimacy.

Professor Amar treats as laughably naïve the observation by ACLU national legal director and Georgetown law professor David Cole that, although “Parrish took away some rights of business owners … its real effect was to expand rights protections for millions of Americans subject to exploitation by powerful corporations.” Amar’s rebuttal? He says, and I’m serious here, that it’d be equally legitimate to say that “Dobbs’ real effect would be to expand rights protection for millions of innocent, unborn Americans … unborn humans, subject to extermination by society.”
It’s hard to know where to begin in unraveling that alleged parallel. Suffice it to note that the status as rights-bearing persons of embryos and fetuses remains a matter of profound sectarian controversy in America and throughout the world while no such controversy attends the status as rights-bearing persons of the array of workers whose rights, at least under laws designed to limit economic exploitation if not directly under the constitution itself, were indisputably expanded by virtue of the Parrish decision and the overturning of the Lochner line of cases.

Perhaps no less important is the indisputable fact that, although there remain a few commentators who continue to think that Lochner was rightly decided and Parrish was wrong, there is a nearly universal consensus, certainly covering the ideological spectrum on the current supreme court, that the “rights” protected by Lochner and the other decisions that Parrish tossed into the dustbin of history were not constitutionally sacrosanct, and that inequalities of bargaining power prevented the common-law baseline that Lochner treated as immune to legislative modification from having any special constitutional status. At the same time, the notions of personal autonomy and bodily integrity that provide the constitutional foundation for the substantive “liberty” at stake in cases like Roe and Casey are almost universally accepted as real, although deep disagreements remain about whether, to what degree, and from what point in fetal development the protection of the unborn fetus can properly trump that liberty.

The upshot is that the radical change in law and society that Dobbs would represent truly has no parallel in the history of the supreme court or in the history of the United States. As David Cole writes, the “proper analogy is not Brown overruling Plessy, but a decision reviving Plessy, reversing Brown, and relegating Black people to enforced segregation after nearly 70 years of equal protection.” For, as Jamelle Bouie rightly observed, “equal standing is undermined and eroded when the state can effectively seize your person for its own ends – that is, when it can force you to give birth.” Whether or not one compares that compulsion and forced labor to literal enslavement, as I did in my 1973 article on Roe v Wade, attempts to minimize the huge retrogression this would represent must be dismissed as little more than shameful efforts to camouflage the carnage the supreme court of the United States is about to unleash both on its own legitimacy and, even more important, on the people in whose name it wields the power of judicial review.
  • Laurence H Tribe is the Carl M Loeb University Professor of Constitutional Law Emeritus at Harvard University, the author of numerous books and articles, a distinguished supreme court advocate, and holder of 11 honorary degrees

Literally half this article has nothing to do with Dobbs or Roe.

"If the law's on your side, argue the law. If the facts are on your side, argue the facts. If neither are on your side, throw an autistic shitfit".
 
Why do you guys always do this?

"Most women who get an abortion are 'insert emotionally resonant cases'!"

Only to immediately follow up with

"...And even if that weren't true...!"

Not a dig at you personally, but i've talked to other people with similar opinions, and this exact framing always comes up
There is a concept called a motte and bailey argument, have you heard of it before?
 
That's nice but it's not going to make public transit any less non-existent in most of the South. Come down here and see for yourself if you don't believe me.
You lazy neet, fuck you and your bullshit claims. One phone call isn’t enough? Or are you too inept from your inbred parents? You can make all these critiques and jabs at the South’s racism, sexism, incest, whatever. The moment you insult the public transportation of the South, you done fucked up and activated my autism. Go pop and break a broom handle in your ass.
 
It'll be a society with a whole lot more dead women
No, it won't. This has not happened in states that passed restrictive abortion laws in the last few years. And that cannot be explained by they all went to other states to murder their baby, the increase in abortion travel was quite small. End result is actually much fewer babies being murdered.
and girls
No it, won't. This has not happened in states that passed restrictive abortion laws in the last few years. And that cannot be explained by they all went to other states to murder their baby, the increase in abortion travel was quite small. End result is actually much fewer babies being murdered.
and an equal (or higher) number of dead fetuses.
No, it won't. Abortion has continued its decline in general, and especially in states that have passed restrictive abortion laws.
More dead babies too probably, both from the old fashioned wet-cloth-to-the-face-of-a-newborn method of dealing with unwanted pregnancies, and from shit like shaken baby syndrome and other ways people who should have never had kids tend to kill them (or get them taken away by CPS at least).
No, it won't. This has not happened in states that have passed restrictive abortion laws in the last few years.

Pure seethin, copin, and dialatin from the proponents of baby murder. It makes them so very angry that baby murder was already on the decline in the United States and will now decline even faster.
 
You lazy neet, fuck you and your bullshit claims. One phone call isn’t enough? Or are you too inept from your inbred parents? You can make all these critiques and jabs at the South’s racism, sexism, incest, whatever. The moment you insult the public transportation of the South, you done fucked up and activated my autism. Go pop and break a broom handle in your ass.
Homie I live here and don't have a car.
Pure seethin, copin, and dialatin from the proponents of baby murder. It makes them so very angry that baby murder was already on the decline in the United States and will now decline even faster.
If you think women who get abortions need to dilate you don't know enough about how female anatomy works to make judgement calls about how women choose to manage it.

Anyway while the wet cloth to the face method is probably the most useful infanticide technique for women and girls of the modern era to avoid detection at autopsy, my possible favorite historical infanticide method is what the Romans did and just chucked them in piles of manure. Like you just go up and chuck a newborn into a pile of giant pile of poop. Great combination of two things that are inherently funny, poop and dead babies.
 
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No it won't. This has not happened in states that passed restrictive abortion laws in the last few years. And that cannot be explained by they all went to other states to murder their baby, the increase in abortion travel was quite small. End result is actually much fewer babies being murdered.

No it won't. This has not happened in states that passed restrictive abortion laws in the last few years. And that cannot be explained by they all went to other states to murder their baby, the increase in abortion travel was quite small. End result is actually much fewer babies being murdered.

No it won't. Abortion has continued its decline in general, and especially in states that have passed restrictive abortion laws.

No it won't. This has not happened in states that have passed restrictive abortion laws in the last few years.

Pure seethin, copin, and dialatin from the proponents of baby murder. It makes them so very angry that baby murder has already been on the decline in the United States and will now decline even faster.
The hilarious thing, is that hysterial baby killers seem to have only two arguments.
1) I won't have sex with you - or rather specifically, banning abortion will kill hookup culture, wouldn't that suck for you!
and
2) I'll kill myself/my baby/others.

In regards to the first: No lol. Women literally cannot stop being whores right now, getting sex from a 5-6 is piss easy as a result. Even if it were the case: Good! Hookup culture is vile, more people should be in stable long term relationships rather than slutting it up.
In regards to the second: Women arguing for the removal of their own rights is hilarious. "We're too bloodthirsty/retarded to not kill ourselves and our children!" Does not a compelling argument make.
 
A non-peer reviewed paper published on a pro abortion website?

The Guttmacher Institute is literally an arm of Planned Parenthood.
I routinely cite Guttmacher because they obliterate the "what about rape and incest you chud" argument. These things are so rare you could write a rape and incest exception into every abortion law, or into the Constitution itself, and the pro-life side would just shrug. There's a few more abortions for health reasons, but it's still very small. Guttmacher demonstrates the dishonesty of the pro-abortion side's emphasis on these rare exceptions to the normal pattern of lifestyle maintenance abortions.

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Homie I live here and don't have a car.

If you think women who get abortions need to dilate you don't know enough about how female anatomy works to make judgement calls about how women choose to manage it.
I live here too and guess what. Guess fucking what. I make by and I don’t spend my car money on the internet to make up bullshit about abortion. God, fucking neets.
 
Homie I live here and don't have a car.
LOL

How big of a fucking loser are you?
Anyway while the wet cloth to the face method is probably the most useful infanticide technique for women and girls of the modern era to avoid detection at autopsy, my possible favorite historical infanticide method is what the Romans did and just chucked them in piles of manure. Like you just go up and chuck a newborn into a pile of giant pile of poop. Great combination of two things that ate inherently funny, poop and dead babies.
Leg-Beard dot tee-ex-tee
 
Yes, in the year of our lord 20XX women are such poverty and oppressed stricken masses that the concept of minor travel in the United States is a fantasy idea that can only be reached by the upper elite.

Even a broke ass 15 year old can catch the greyhound for less then like a big fast food meal. Come on, Android. Lol.
Okay. Now drive that far to get a gun.
 
I live here too and guess what. Guess fucking what. I make by and I don’t spend my car money on the internet to make up bullshit about abortion. God, fucking neets.
And I'm an autist with limited ability to work thanks to sensory issues who can't afford a car, since cars are a expensive af. Even when I had one I couldn't really afford it, I had a job then but was probably putting just about all my paycheck into gas and other car expenses.

Maybe the south should stop making excuses for not having public transit or treating women as people.
 
If you think women who get abortions need to dilate you don't know enough about how female anatomy works to make judgement calls about how women choose to manage it.
Seethin copin and dialatin
Anyway while the wet cloth to the face method is probably the most useful infanticide technique for women and girls of the modern era to avoid detection at autopsy, my possible favorite historical infanticide method is what the Romans did and just chucked them in piles of manure. Like you just go up and chuck a newborn into a pile of giant pile of poop. Great combination of two things that are inherently funny, poop and dead babies.
Ow the edge
 
I love all this shit flinging and fear mongering when nothing has even happened yet. Roe V Wade HAS NOT been overturned yet. In fact the leak was more of a "We're considering it" . That's it. That's all. Nothing has happened and the media panic is overblown as fuck and opinion pieces like this are not helping the cause to keep Roe V Wade. "Women will DIE! experts say!" with no real real evidence as to how or why that would be the case. Stop screeching to appeal to emotion and give some hard goddamn facts!

tl;dr: this is fearmongering for the midterms and will be a huge nothing burger after November.

EDIT: opinion pieces, not ONION pieces. Even though life has turned into a circa 2005 Onion article.
 
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I routinely cite Guttmacher because they obliterate the "what about rape and incest you chud" argument. These things are so rare you could write a rape and incest exception into every abortion law, or into the Constitution itself, and the pro-life side would just shrug. There's a few more abortions for health reasons, but it's still very small. Guttmacher demonstrates the dishonesty of the pro-abortion side's emphasis on these rare exceptions to the normal pattern of lifestyle maintenance abortions.

View attachment 3314892
And those are all perfectly good reasons to have an abortion since kids are fucking expensive and hard to take care of properly. Not every woman wants to be like Jill Rodrigues and just pop out kids until she physically can't, only to shove them in an RV and starve them because feeding 13 kids is expensive.
 
To work a summer job you need a ride. My parents would bitch and moan for hours if they had to drive their kids to a doctor appointment, like hell were they gonna drive them to a job multiple days a week.

Would 15 year old me really be someone you'd trust with your kids?

That's the most compelling thing you said. Then again, you shouldn't trust yourself in any way, shape or form either.

If "muh bus ticket" is too onerous of a threshold, then simply demand Tyrone or Trayvon pony up bus fare before you fuck, just in case.

The absolute contempt you have for women (yourself really) in this thread is quite a marvel to watch. And you are so angry about your self hate, you need deal with it my trying to feel complete power over the powerless. You are an incredibly hideous person.
Or, get this, a secular nation should make sure basic medical procedures and medication are available to everyone in all states, regardless of how much aborting embryos supposedly hurts Jesus' feefees or w/e
Everyone of all states? Including the unborn? What about them? Shoulkd they have legal protection in the styate legislatures as well? Right, the response is one clump of cells calling another clump of cells meaningless.
 
And I'm an autist with limited ability to work thanks to sensory issues who can't afford a car, since cars are a expensive af. Even when I had one I couldn't really afford it, I had a job then but was probably putting just about all my paycheck into gas and other car expenses.

Maybe the south should stop making excuses for not having public transit or treating women as people.
Why is it, when women ask to be 'treated as people!' what they mean is 'give me privelige!'?

You are being treated as a person. If I go to the south there isn't a 'man only' bus. You have the exact same opportunities as every other man and woman in America, you're just a failure. Because you didn't act on them. A wetback can scuttle up from Guatemala, run from the dogs, and border agents. Walk like a hundred miles to town, get a job picking fruit and still manage to scrounge up enough for a car, low quality rent and food. I have a shop half a mile away where a literal, actual, retard works. I asked him to get me some booze from the behind the counter spirits, and the fucking potato stood staring at the bottle labeled 'Jameson' for five minutes as I kept directing him to it. He eventually got it. That spud can hold down a job, and he's basically not human.

You're a grown ass woman who can communicate with at least some ability, get a fucking grip. Blaming all of life's problems on everything but your own lack of ability, is a recipe to end up miserable, bitter, and alone by your 40's. There's no bus? Get a car? Can't afford a car? Get a job. Can't find a job? Starve. What you are right now is a pet of the government; kept alive by the hard work of everyone else. Congratulations, you're not a lesbian at all! You're effectively married to every single man that manages to hold down a job, since they're the ones paying for all your stuff.
 
Everyone of all states? Including the unborn? What about them? Shoulkd they have legal protection in the styate legislatures as well? Right, the response is one clump of cells calling another clump of cells meaningless.
Fetuses get no rights because fetuses aren't people. If you think they are, go harass an IVF clinic since they kill way more than abortions do.
 
Or, get this, a secular nation should make sure basic medical procedures and medication are available to everyone in all states, regardless of how much aborting embryos supposedly hurts Jesus' feefees or w/e
Get this: a judge is not a legislator and the bench is not the place to be drafting law. If this error's correction wasn't a forgone conclusion and I had certainty in doing so I would correct it, I would murder every hysterical woman and infant needed with my bare hands to make it happen. There's a way, and a process, to make what you want to happen a legal reality. Stop throwing autistic shitfits that threaten actual important rights that apply to >50% of the population. These quasi-legal half-measures are inevitably disasters and it is damning as a sex that women continue to zealously pursue them.
 
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