Tabletop Roleplaying Games (D&D, Pathfinder, CoC, ETC.)

[Ghostse]

Since we're talking about lethality, anyone here ever run a high-lethality 5e game? I know the system really doesn't want you to do it, but one of the guys in my group has been toying with the idea.

So, how would you do it? Also, when someone inevitably bites the bullet, how do you get them back into the game? Take over a follower? Start with a 1-level below character? My GM likes doing the latter and it works fine for us. The way XP requirements scale, someone below the curve will catch up pretty quickly.

From what I've experienced of 5e, it doesn't really work as a lethal system without a fair bit of retooling on of characters and classes - i.e. what Five Torches Deep did. Player characters are just not expected to die. Player have such a depth of tricks they can access that either you have to cheap-shot them or send them through an unforgiving gauntlet that slowly wears them down and generally makes their death feel forced. Its not like an old school crawl where the dice fuck you once and its over - oh well, could have gone the other way, new character. Death in 5e is only done by either said cheapshot or a long chain of bad decisions that tend to engender frustration that is vented at the rest of the table. Granted that might also be the player base.

Plus, and maybe its just my lack of experience with the system, characters don't build particularly fast.

So if I was doing it I'd want to rewrite the races & characters. Make them faster to play, lower HP, probably add damage.

On getting players back into the game, it depends.
For OSE one-shots, I either have them take over a hireling or if there are no hirelings, the party encounters a "castaway" - someone stuck in the place they are for a while, half-starved, maybe a little mad, but competent. Or maybe a survivor from another party.

For megadungeons, usually there is a town and the town will have a tavern for recruiting hirelings. Stands to reason a new adventurer will wander in.

Haven't gotten to do an OSE campaign yet, but for 3.x if the party didn't want to try to rez them, usually bring in someone about their level but with low quality gear.

For 4e, I would just stare at the party until they remember that its 4e and characters aren't supposed to die to anything less than a supernova and the player decides if he wants to play another character or not.
(specifically for 4e, I always give players a finite pool of D6s as divine rewards that can be spend to: Gain an Action point, immediate heal 1d6 HP, add 1d6 to any d20 roll, add 1d6 to damage, etc. So rolling a new character costs one of these)

5e... I've only run one shots and mini-megadungeons, so when I had someone die it was pretty much over so I let them have tactical control of the monsters.

Sorry, should have clarified. [ .. ] 5e

Pointbuy or array and be done with it.

 

[Judge Dredd]

For DMs in here: do you attempt to crack down on exotic races or strange class combos or just let players do whatever as long as it isn't absurd/overly broken?

No. I do crack down on overly stupid or out of setting characters.

I want to know what sort of settings they're playing in where a party of two genasi and a dragonborn and a bright red tiefling and an aasimar and a furry don't stick out like a sore thumb anywhere they go.

And they should. They're an adventuring party. Usually outcasts of some form. If the characters could easily fit in with a nice 9-5 job, why wouldn't they do that?


I've never seen the "stock party" played ever. If anything it's the opposite problem I have where any attempt to write a character that's grounded, I find myself sitting between to "Adelf Hitler" and "Poo poo Pachoo the goblin artificer that throws poo".

I skimmed the Numenera stuff when it first came out, the setting itself was interesting but the system rubbed me the wrong way.

Same. The 5e port Arcana of Ancients is good, though it's mostly setting info and a bestiary. It's good, but I can't find players willing to try it.

 

[knightlautrec]

Has anyone played numenera before? Someone in our playgroup wants to do a game next week before we play D&D and I’m not sure about it. On one hand it’s a Monty Cook game, on another it’s not super popular from what I’ve seen.

I have and I didn't like it. The idea worked semi-fine as a isometric video game (where its quirky tech as magic works as a plot device) but in tabletop I found it very forgettable as a concept and the system unfun. Like there's room for a lot of weird stuff but I find it too much of a hodgepodge to really find a voice to it and that's ultimately the issue - when you try to be master of all, you are master of none.

If it was very clearly focused setting wise, I could see an interesting 'So far into the future we've rolled around to the dark ages again' take if it just had more of an actual flavour.

It wasn't for me. It also didn't help that Monte Cook is a bit soy going on about how every PC in the game would be mixed race and brown like light skin people happen in a vacuum or there's no such thing as light skinned biracial people.

 

[The Ugly One]

From what I've experienced of 5e, it doesn't really work as a lethal system without a fair bit of retooling on of characters and classes - i.e. what Five Torches Deep did. Player characters are just not expected to die. Player have such a depth of tricks they can access that either you have to cheap-shot them or send them through an unforgiving gauntlet that slowly wears them down and generally makes their death feel forced. Its not like an old school crawl where the dice fuck you once and its over - oh well, could have gone the other way, new character. Death in 5e is only done by either said cheapshot or a long chain of bad decisions that tend to engender frustration that is vented at the rest of the table. Granted that might also be the player base.

The reason the old school games have a reputation for higher lethality is you spend way more time at low levels, where the characters are paper dolls, and cheap shots are more culturally accepted design tool. I can stick a save-or-die trap into a 5e dungeon, it's just that 5e players will call me an asshole and quit playing if I do. But still, if you take a more old-school approach to dungeon design, even without save-or-die, it's pretty easy to fill a graveyard with characters.

IME, characters in AD&D and B/X are actually a lot more powerful than 5e characters in practical terms by about 8th level or so. But in 5e, 1st level characters will typically not die on the first hit, and 5th level comes at you fast.

 

[Ghostse]

The reason the old school games have a reputation for higher lethality is you spend way more time at low levels, where the characters are paper dolls, and cheap shots are more culturally accepted design tool. I can stick a save-or-die trap into a 5e dungeon, it's just that 5e players will call me an asshole and quit playing if I do. But still, if you take a more old-school approach to dungeon design, even without save-or-die, it's pretty easy to fill a graveyard with characters.

IME, characters in AD&D and B/X are actually a lot more powerful than 5e characters in practical terms by about 8th level or so. But in 5e, 1st level characters will typically not die on the first hit, and 5th level comes at you fast.

I'll agree reputation and expectation play a part, but part of it is design.

D&D pre-3e characters are just assumed to die. the PHB speaks to playing as the character you roll, not the character you design.
Even in 2e that was starting to shift and after 3.5 it was about making your super special novella backstory wizard, hooking up feats and backgrounds to min-mix to the fullest represent your character.

Its also player commitment. There is no character building in B/X, you roll 6 stats and adjust the numbers on the class grid. Fill in a name, and now roll out. 5e even with the reddit guides telling you what your perfectly min-maxed build is, it still takes a while to fill out the sheet.

Combat in 5e is a fairly drawn out affair, an hour or so usually. In OSE its like 15 minutes. Players spend more time interacting with the world (and trying to figure out where the trap that will kill them is hidden) than crossing swords.
5e characters are not as relatively beefy as 4e but they are still hard to kill.

Again, you can - and peopel have - taken the 5e rules and make an expected lethality system with them. but you need to rewrite about half the game to do it.

 

[Fakenamemagoo]

Again, you can - and peopel have - taken the 5e rules and make an expected lethality system with them. but you need to rewrite about half the game to do it.

The easiest way I've found to do so is to remove the PC's CON modifier for HP. And have them roll for HP each level after first. I also reduce enemy HP proportionatly as well. Combat still kinda drags, but my players get nice and low in their health, and I roll openly so it's pretty tense as we all hope that the bandit's next arrow misses our Druid with 2hp left.

 

[Čmarobnjak]

https://oldschoolfrp.tumblr.com/post/680342622587486208/theyre-just-kobolds-why-did-our-torch-flames

 

[Adamska]

Or you guys can just play a different edition or system that doesn't require hours of editing and rebalancing.

I mean, if I want a less powergamey fantasy where I can just plain fucking die casually, it's why I play WarHams Fantasy Roleplay's earlier editions.

 

[White Slaad]

Since we're talking about lethality, anyone here ever run a high-lethality 5e game? I know the system really doesn't want you to do it, but one of the guys in my group has been toying with the idea.

So, how would you do it? Also, when someone inevitably bites the bullet, how do you get them back into the game? Take over a follower? Start with a 1-level below character? My GM likes doing the latter and it works fine for us. The way XP requirements scale, someone below the curve will catch up pretty quickly.

I ran Tomb of Annihilation, a spiritual successor to Tomb of Horrors, which has a pretty high lethality rate. 5e PCs are pretty durable with their death saves and Healing Word— it takes a stacked encounter or an enemy popping off hard (such as a dragon getting multiple consecutive recharges, or a productive ambush) to kill even one. My advice is to run lots of debuffs on the enemies to get the grind going- enemies like Rust Monsters or Death Dogs that inflict disease, madness (fuck you Monsters of the Multiverse), exhaustion, or curses that require resources to get rid of or otherwise make a player more vulnerable. The optional DMG rules for injury, as has been mentioned, work well. Also, don't be afraid to have enemies attack downed PCs- a weapon attack is an automatic crit for two failed saves and any other source of damage is one failed save. I'll also place emphasis on encounters with surprise, since the enemy gets priority on positioning and can attack from unseen if they're ranged/close enough- maybe enough to pop the healer before the Barb can rage.

I try to have a backup GMNPC to keep a player occupied- weaker than a PC and otherwise not involved in combat (also works when attendance is low). I'm pretty quick to roll in new PCs, usually when they manage to get their next long rest, since my players tend to be excited to roll in their new creation. If losing a level and making a new character works for your group, then no need to fix it.

 

[Ghostse]

Or you guys can just play a different edition or system that doesn't require hours of editing and rebalancing.

I mean, if I want a less powergamey fantasy where I can just plain fucking die casually, it's why I play WarHams Fantasy Roleplay's earlier editions.

A) The discusion is from a specific question from @Corn Flakes about making 5e a lethal system. While 5e just isn't intended to be lethal, that's boring. So at least what I'm posting about is just playing along with the hypothethical because its not like we're talking about anything else important.

B) While moving to a system intended for lethality is best solution instead of trying to clue antlers on a dog to make a reindeer... there is a big enough audience for people who are familiar with 5e's rule set and don't want to learn another ruleset (or unlearn 5e) but want faster more brutal combat that creators are putting in the work to re-write the Race/Class chapter and rework the Monster Manual.
So this more than

5e PCs are pretty durable with their death saves and Healing Word— it takes a stacked encounter or an enemy popping off hard (such as a dragon getting multiple consecutive recharges, or a productive ambush) to kill even one. My advice is to run lots of debuffs on the enemies to get the grind going- enemies like Rust Monsters or Death Dogs that inflict disease, madness (fuck you Monsters of the Multiverse), exhaustion, or curses that require resources to get rid of or otherwise make a player more vulnerable. The optional DMG rules for injury, as has been mentioned, work well. Also, don't be afraid to have enemies attack downed PCs- a weapon attack is an automatic crit for two failed saves and any other source of damage is one failed save. I'll also place emphasis on encounters with surprise, since the enemy gets priority on positioning and can attack from unseen if they're ranged/close enough- maybe enough to pop the healer before the Barb can rage.

You aren't wrong if your goal is to just have a PC bodycount, but all those things - at least when I'm on the other side of the screen - feel frustrating and not fun. As you said, you don't kill a 5e PC, you just slowly sand them down.

 

[Adamska]

I get it, but honestly at the end of the day it's just simpler to bust out B/X or an earlier edition tbh. The hours you waste trying to roll the boulder up the hill is better spent plotting the dungeons or adventure setting.

 

[Mr. Manchester]

Basically, if you didn't add your score modifiers together and get at least a +2, and did not have a stat better than 14, fuck that shit, reroll the set.

This is what I do, but a little more generous. I say they need at least a 15 and the total of their bonuses need to equal +3, they're free to hang on to the original stats but if they want to reroll that's their prerogative.

 

[Pentex]

A Filipino tranny has appeared to save tabletop gaming!

The New Face Of The Gaming Influencer​

As is often said, the 2020s is like living through a ‘digital gold rush.’ Prospectors have swapped their shovels for laptops and webcams, and are making serious money through building and monetizing online communities. According to the VC firm SignalFire, as many as 50 million people consider themselves ‘creators’ within the passion economy, and many of these are making six-figure sums just by doing what they love and documenting it.

Breaking through in the creator economy is certainly easier in some sectors than others. But one industry that continues to go from strength to strength, spawning its own creator economy middle class, is gaming, which exploded during the pandemic. And as gaming has grown, so too have its adjacent creator and influencer markets, turbocharged by social media and streaming platforms like Twitch and YouTube.

But isn’t this bad news? Gaming has a controversial reputation at the best of times; it’s famously anonymous, rife with misogyny and hatred, and often caught overlapping with the darker corners of the internet. Maybe the fact more money is flowing into the pockets of gaming influencers isn’t cause for celebration?

Possibly. Though under closer scrutiny, the face of the gaming influencer is evolving, and creators don’t necessarily mirror the stereotypical gamer you might have in mind.

Elle Dwight is the CEO and cofounder of Role, a tech platform that allows people to play TTRPGs (table-top role-playing games) through online, video-centric software. The role-playing vertical within gaming has grown quickly in the last few years, helped in part by the re-popularization of Dungeons and Dragons (D&D).

As this kind of gaming has increased in popularity, so too have the number of creators in the space. Hit podcasts such as Critical Role are the trailblazers here—live recordings of people playing D&D together that people can listen along to. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of other smaller shows doing the same thing—recording themselves role playing together, bringing people along on their adventures, and then monetizing that intellectual property through the promotion of relevant games and products.

Dwight and her team use these creators to market their product. After all, what better way to show how Role works? But what’s especially interesting is that their company only works with creators from marginalized backgrounds, collaborating exclusively with shows made by members of the LGBTQ+ and BIPOC communities.

"Role playing games are unique in the ways they empower players and storytellers to create the worlds and characters that they want to see. For us, that has always meant putting underrepresented voices at the forefront of every game, campaign, and partnership we work on,” Dwight says. “Role playing is all about live content creation with people you trust, and that provides both an implicit safety and a possibility space that many other gaming mediums often lack. Especially for LGBTQ+ and BIPOC communities, this is a medium where every group can live in an adventure that speaks to their lived experience. We think that's really special, and perhaps the most valuable aspect of this form of play."

As a trans woman herself, with a BIMPOC Filipino co-founder and majority-POC & LGBTQ+ team of 10 people, inclusivity is at the core of everything Dwight’s company does. This might be a rarity for the creator economy in gaming, or it might well be the future.

Yay! More techie startup grift!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/gustavlundbergtoresson/2022/06/01/the-new-face-of-the-gaming-influencer/?sh=5dc934887282

https://archive.ph/qobuC

 

[Corn Flakes]

BIMPOC? What, are these people finally embracing their bimbo fetishes in their racial affiliation? What's up with that?

 

[Abella]

A Filipino tranny has appeared to save tabletop gaming!

The New Face Of The Gaming Influencer​

View attachment 3344466

Yay! More techie startup grift!

https://www.forbes.com/sites/gustavlundbergtoresson/2022/06/01/the-new-face-of-the-gaming-influencer/?sh=5dc934887282

https://archive.ph/qobuC

These kinds of faggots have been at this for the last few years. All they do is add some kind of gay grift which a bunch of consoomers will eat up at worst or fade off into obscurity at best. It’s easy to market since most people who play TTRPGs are welcoming of those types.

 

[knightlautrec]

it’s famously anonymous, rife with misogyny and hatred, and often caught overlapping with the darker corners of the internet.

Citation needed. I have been playing TTRP with others for almost 25 years and still have zero clue where these people are getting such stupid impressions of our hobby. They all seem like paper tigers at this point. I am not the usual demographic gender or colour wise and I've had zero issues.

All one need to do is: Shut up, nut up, understand what you're doing (AKA read the fucking rules), being enthusiastic and happy and engaged, be gracious and kind to others who like the hobby, thank people who give you advice, thank people who take the time to play with you and most important: Play. The. Game.

That is it. Are there some social weirdos out there? Yeah sure. Every LGS has that guy. But my overwhelming experience has been good and people have been accomdating and nice. I guess it helps to not take offence at every little thing or when people try to give you lore dumps or info you already know. They're enthused to share something and that is genuinely nice. I just match it and give them lore back. Y'know. Like a normal conversation.

I think a lot of these same screaming about how awful the Hobby is stems from people assuming the absolute worse in others. Seems so utterly cynical. I don't know how they function in society just thinking everyone is awful.

 

[Big Nasty]

Or you guys can just play a different edition or system that doesn't require hours of editing and rebalancing.

I mean, if I want a less powergamey fantasy where I can just plain fucking die casually, it's why I play WarHams Fantasy Roleplay's earlier editions.

WHFRP 1st ed is cool. Down and dirty pigfarming game system that has "Consume Alcohol" as a skill.

 

[Ghostse]

Citation needed.

The last group was sick of my constant attention whoring. The GM refused all my attempts to hijack the session to make it about gay discovery, feminism, and the need for reparations and kept trying to focus on killing orcs instead of the importance of using pronouns as my character's genderfluidity manifested.
Silence is violence, Nazi.

 

[Fag Albert]

Citation needed. I have been playing TTRP with others for almost 25 years and still have zero clue where these people are getting such stupid impressions of our hobby. They all seem like paper tigers at this point. I am not the usual demographic gender or colour wise and I've had zero issues.

Agreed, It's some serious bullshit. I worked at a FLGS a few years back and I saw a pretty wide variety of age/race/sexes among the various groups during pen & paper night. Shit's incredibly welcoming.

 

[EnemyStand]

Citation needed. I have been playing TTRP with others for almost 25 years and still have zero clue where these people are getting such stupid impressions of our hobby. They all seem like paper tigers at this point. I am not the usual demographic gender or colour wise and I've had zero issues.

I can tell you exactly why. It's the same thing when the media was carrying water for idiots like Jack Chick. Signal boosting the relatively rare horror stories and outright lying. It doesn't help the hobby attracts theater/English major faggots who couldn't hack it as an actual actor/writer because they lacked talent. These people are attention whores, and the tranny grift is the best shot they have of being famous. They're not interested in playing the game.

All one need to do is: Shut up, nut up, understand what you're doing (AKA read the fucking rules), being enthusiastic and happy and engaged, be gracious and kind to others who like the hobby, thank people who give you advice, thank people who take the time to play with you and most important: Play. The. Game.

If that was what they were interested in, that's what they'd do. They're interested in becoming famous, so they read the books, maybe do one session then make up a reason why racism or men or whatever the cause du jour is that keeps them from playing. If they actually wanted to play, they'd follow your advice and have a good time with their fellow autists like we do.

That is it. Are there some social weirdos out there? Yeah sure. Every LGS has that guy. But my overwhelming experience has been good and people have been accomdating and nice. I guess it helps to not take offence at every little thing or when people try to give you lore dumps or info you already know. They're enthused to share something and that is genuinely nice. I just match it and give them lore back. Y'know. Like a normal conversation.

Oh, but don't you know? This Guy doesn't exist in media land despite the fact they make up most tabletop hobbyists. The media handwringing went from Satanists to Nazis with barely a breath in between, Gotta get those eyeballs, sister. The media rage machine is eternal and unstoppable.

I think a lot of these same screaming about how awful the Hobby is stems from people assuming the absolute worse in others. Seems so utterly cynical. I don't know how they function in society just thinking everyone is awful.

No, it's from people who aren't interested in the hobby beyond a stepping stone to fame and fortune. Once the mainstream appeal runs its course (if it ever does since sedentary hobbies are the "it" thing right now) you'll see it all go away for a time. Then the fad cycle will pick it back up in some way and it'll start all over. Maybe wargaming beyond 40K will be next to be infested...I already see bio pronouns and Ukranian flags on the Conquest servers. Hell, one of the Vanguards near me is a tranny. It's all so tiresome.