Western Animation - Discuss American, Canadian, and European cartoons here (or just bitch about wokeshit, I guess)

[Trilby]

Once more they both made Waller thinner than she should be and the bitch to a bunch of supervillains. As opposed to someone they should shit their pants about every time they realise she's within a 5 mile radius.

Also;
Dislikes hidden.
Bots clearly out in force given how many times these are repeated verbatim in the comments.




Very sad. I'm going to watch the opening for CyberSix to sanitise my Youtube after that.

Cybersix was the only good one I cared about.

 

[Super-Chevy454]

It was a such a cruddy time to be a kid with these being flaunted on screen.

I guess this is where Filmation was inspired to do Gilligan's Planet.

 

[Archeops]

They're still repeating these mistakes today. At least Cartoon Network is. They had Sym-Bionic Titan, that Green Lantern 3D cartoon and Thundercats remake all have good ratings and good reviews, only to get cancelled because of "low toy sales" (PPG2016 suffered the same fate though their reviews were awful). Steven Universe despite no kids watching it had no merchendise until way later and it wasn't the best. ((wo)manchildren have money too sometimes). And then there's Disney who repeated the similar mistake 20th Century Fox made with the original Star Wars by not making any merch for Mandalorian, letting indie shops and bootleggers get a head start on profiting off Baby Yoda crap.

The viscious cycle is doomed to repeat because you can never truly know how the tide will turn towards or away from your favor. And whoever tells you otherwise is full of shit.

IIRC SU's first piece of official merch was a line Funko POPs featuring Garnet, Pearl, Amethyst, and Steven and they were often the butt of fandom due to the usual POP design making them (especially Pearl) look a bit creepy. That said, despite the POPs being on the low end of the totem pole they still sold enough to justify making a line of second wave (featuring Lapis, Peridot, Connie, and Lion with Pink Diamond and Stevonnie as bonus store-exclusive releases) with five variations from both line, lines of blind-box figures of varying quality, children's books based off of certain episodes (you know the ones), soundtrack releases, video games that were mostly for tablets, yadda yadda, you get the idea.

Ironically enough, the merch train started to peter out when the Ruby & Sapphire wedding special was released and was fully dead (outside of the art books and some made-to-order varsity jackets based off of the one Steven wore) once Future rolled in.

Oh, and Disney tried a similar strategy with STVOE but that one crapped out with the Funko POPs and hasn't been done for its other shows.

 

[Trilby]

I guess this is where Filmation was inspired to do Gilligan's Planet.

Yeah probably, apparently animating Gilligan's Island once wasn't enough!

 

[starborn427614]

IIRC SU's first piece of official merch was a line Funko POPs featuring Garnet, Pearl, Amethyst, and Steven and they were often the butt of fandom due to the usual POP design making them (especially Pearl) look a bit creepy. That said, despite the POPs being on the low end of the totem pole they still sold enough to justify making a line of second wave (featuring Lapis, Peridot, Connie, and Lion with Pink Diamond and Stevonnie as bonus store-exclusive releases) with five variations from both line, lines of blind-box figures of varying quality, children's books based off of certain episodes (you know the ones), soundtrack releases, video games that were mostly for tablets, yadda yadda, you get the idea.

Ironically enough, the merch train started to peter out when the Ruby & Sapphire wedding special was released and was fully dead (outside of the art books and some made-to-order varsity jackets based off of the one Steven wore) once Future rolled in.

Oh, and Disney tried a similar strategy with STVOE but that one crapped out with the Funko POPs and hasn't been done for its other shows.

There were trading cards too. Kind of hard to get hold of IIRC since you had to order them from the manufacturer's site.

 

[LavenderMenace]

Here’s my thing with Steven Universe. It was popular because it had a lot going for it. The background art was very lovely, the show had an really good composer for the OST and I don’t care what anyone says, the show’s ost is a fucking bop.
Rebecca was a talented artist (But not a director) and she had really expressive drawings. The pilot is why everyone was hyped because it had a neat aesthetic for the time. It was altered ALOT for television and it caused the general style of the show to be limited. Especially character design.

When the first season was complete, people were very split on it until they revealed that it was gay friendly with Ruby and Sapphire. And remember that this was 2012 and gemstone/witch girls, gayness of tumblr, bronies, and social media were at its peak. Teens and man children virtue signaled this show to death.

A lot of people did like SU but as it went on, problems arose, fandom became a piranha pit, para-social schitzos caused artists to run off the show, Rebecca’s incompetence as a director and getting a grip on her own show, Cartoon Network losing viewers and streaming becoming more viable for profits, and more.

SU turned to utter shit but it had talent behind it. Unfortunately it collapsed under its own hubris and released the quirky obnoxious CalArts art students into the wild.

 

[Archeops]

So apparently Cartoon Network’s been going through its YouTube channels and its own website to purge ’em of certain IPs. Affected IPs include Final Space, ThunderCats Roar, Elliot from Earth, The Fungies, and Little Ellen.

The current theory seems to be that Discovery’s lawyers are forcing CN to go through its IPs and get rid of some wasteful spending via tax write-offs.

There were trading cards too. Kind of hard to get hold of IIRC since you had to order them from the manufacturer's site.

I remember those, you could actually get 'em from some online card shops but they were really niche. The one thing I do remember you had to order via some convoluted method was their "card battling" game themed around that Beach-a-Palooza concert that pops up in the show, IIRC they orginally advertised it with a traditional store-based release, but once COVID hit and stores started to shut their doors they scratched those plans and dropped it via a Kickstarter campaign was the only way to get it unless you convinced a store to back it and bought it from them. Oh, and they also did because they lost the SU license, but that’s kind of a non-starter due to a bunch of other companies that were cranking out SU merch (Funko included) dropping the IP at around the same time.

And the real kicker? You can STILL buy it off of their main site for $29.99 and they still have SU trading card packs for sale in the form of a 5-pack bundle.

Here’s my thing with Steven Universe. It was popular because it had a lot going for it. The background art was very lovely, the show had an really good composer for the OST and I don’t care what anyone says, the show’s ost is a fucking bop.
Rebecca was a talented artist (But not a director) and she had really expressive drawings. The pilot is why everyone was hyped because it had a neat aesthetic for the time. It was altered ALOT for television and it caused the general style of the show to be limited. Especially character design.

When the first season was complete, people were very split on it until they revealed that it was gay friendly with Ruby and Sapphire. And remember that this was 2012 and gemstone/witch girls, gayness of tumblr, bronies, and social media were at its peak. Teens and man children virtue signaled this show to death.

A lot of people did like SU but as it went on, problems arose, fandom became a piranha pit, para-social schitzos caused artists to run off the show, Rebecca’s incompetence as a director and getting a grip on her own show, Cartoon Network losing viewers and streaming becoming more viable for profits, and more.

SU turned to utter shit but it had talent behind it. Unfortunately it collapsed under its own hubris and released the quirky obnoxious CalArts art students into the wild.

You basically hit the nail on the head as far as SU’s problems go. One thing I noticed about Rebecca is that, if some interviews I vaguely remember reading are correct, is that she really never formed a proper disconnect between her production patterns and real life interactions. Two things that come to mind are the Ruby & Sapphire wedding from the OG series being done due to Ian proposing to her (I vaguely remember reading that she kept pushing Ruby and Sapphire’s wedding back until the above spoiler caused her just say “fuck it, I can’t take it anymore”) and Future’s mental health angle being done due to Sugar being exposed to character “stans” (specifically those who “stanned” Jasper) and really being shaken up by ’em.

 

[starborn427614]

So apparently Cartoon Network’s been going through its YouTube channels and its own website to purge ’em of certain IPs. Affected IPs include Final Space, ThunderCats Roar, Elliot from Earth, The Fungies, and Little Ellen.
View attachment 3441082View attachment 3441083View attachment 3441084
The current theory seems to be that Discovery’s lawyers are forcing CN to go through its IPs and get rid of some wasteful spending via tax write-offs.

I remember those, you could actually get 'em from some online card shops but they were really niche. The one thing I do remember you had to order via some convoluted method was their "card battling" game themed around that Beach-a-Palooza concert that pops up in the show, IIRC they orginally advertised it with a traditional store-based release, but once COVID hit and stores started to shut their doors they scratched those plans and dropped it via a Kickstarter campaign was the only way to get it unless you convinced a store to back it and bought it from them. Oh, and they also did because they lost the SU license, but that’s kind of a non-starter due to a bunch of other companies that were cranking out SU merch (Funko included) dropping the IP at around the same time.

And the real kicker? You can STILL buy it off of their main site for $29.99 and they still have SU trading card packs for sale in the form of a 5-pack bundle.

You basically hit the nail on the head as far as SU’s problems go. One thing I noticed about Rebecca is that, if some interviews I vaguely remember reading are correct, is that she really never formed a proper disconnect between her production patterns and real life interactions. Two things that come to mind are the Ruby & Sapphire wedding from the OG series being done due to Ian proposing to her (I vaguely remember reading that she kept pushing Ruby and Sapphire’s wedding back until the above spoiler caused her just say “fuck it, I can’t take it anymore”) and Future’s mental health angle being done due to Sugar being exposed to character “stans” (specifically those who “stanned” Jasper) and really being shaken up by ’em.

To be fair, Jasper stans are autistic even by SUfag standards. On a scale of 1-10, if I'm a 7 then they're a 15.

 

[Private Pyle]

Multiverse is just the 'new thing' at the moment, like every other fad. Since Marvel is able to reap profits from the concept, everyone wants to follow their example since it worked.
It was just like how cartoons had to have some kind of 'cyber-verse' episode in the early 00's, since that was 'the thing' at the time. It's tiring when EVERYONE has to follow the same trend, but animation is pretty expensive, so the studios are gonna want some kind of assurance on their investment.

In the 70's almost everyone went to space for one reason or another, or an alien was worked into the show for no rhyme or reason.

I wonder what would be the next fad after that. How much bigger can you get than a multiverse?

They're still repeating these mistakes today. At least Cartoon Network is. They had Sym-Bionic Titan, that Green Lantern 3D cartoon and Thundercats remake all have good ratings and good reviews, only to get cancelled because of "low toy sales" (PPG2016 suffered the same fate though their reviews were awful). Steven Universe despite no kids watching it had no merchendise until way later and it wasn't the best. ((wo)manchildren have money too sometimes). And then there's Disney who repeated the similar mistake 20th Century Fox made with the original Star Wars by not making any merch for Mandalorian, letting indie shops and bootleggers get a head start on profiting off Baby Yoda crap.

The viscious cycle is doomed to repeat because you can never truly know how the tide will turn towards or away from your favor. And whoever tells you otherwise is full of shit.

Apparently there is some logic behind the toy thing; with action cartoons anyways, which are more expensive than most other cartoon productions. To offset this, they need the revenues from merchandising to fund more episodes.
Granted it can still fuck over shows tied to merchandise and can be used as a weasel excuse by executives.

 

[Yamma Damma]

I wonder what would be the next fad after that. How much bigger can you get than a multiverse?

Maybe if they combine multiverse with time travel somehow? That could be as big as it could get. Though I don't think you can get much bigger without pulling some "Inception" crap.

I said it before but a western would be good right now. Something as grandiose as multiverses cannot be handled properly with the current bad faith players and narrow mindsets we have at the helm (in America anyway, japan or france will make something better as usual). Something like "Long Gone Gulch" would work.

 

[AnOminous]

Something like "Long Gone Gulch" would work.

I liked the pilot for this. Too bad we haven't seen anything since.

 

[ArthuriusMartyrius]

They're still repeating these mistakes today. At least Cartoon Network is. They had Sym-Bionic Titan, that Green Lantern 3D cartoon and Thundercats remake all have good ratings and good reviews, only to get cancelled because of "low toy sales" (PPG2016 suffered the same fate though their reviews were awful). Steven Universe despite no kids watching it had no merchendise until way later and it wasn't the best. ((wo)manchildren have money too sometimes). And then there's Disney who repeated the similar mistake 20th Century Fox made with the original Star Wars by not making any merch for Mandalorian, letting indie shops and bootleggers get a head start on profiting off Baby Yoda crap.

The viscious cycle is doomed to repeat because you can never truly know how the tide will turn towards or away from your favor. And whoever tells you otherwise is full of shit.

Eh, Sym-Bionic Titan wasn't that popular and 2011's Thundercats fell off hard after the first 3 episodes, plus one of the writers had a bizarre vendetta against Lion-O and even got into an argument about it with a bunch of fans on fucking DeviantArt.

 

[Fat Tub of Lard]

Backing up to the 90s, lately, I've been reading up on the production shitstorm that was The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest, particularly two interviews on fansite Questfan, one with Lance Falk and another with Peter Lawrence. Each worked on a separate incarnation of the show (Lawrence on Season 1, Falk on Season 2), and each one throws some rather pointed jabs at the other for how they handled their respective episodes. For the record, Lawrence and his partner Takashi Masunaga openly hate the original Jonny Quest from the 60s and took the job to make it "less shit", which to them meant going for what they felt was realism. Falk, on the other hand, is an OG JQ fan and, while Lawrence and Takashi were making their version, pushed for something more along those lines before finally getting his wish when Davis Doi and Larry Houston made what became known as Season 2.

The issues the show went through are probably too numerous to go into here, but for the sake of comparison, I'll just give a TL;DR of what each had to say:

• Lance Falk had wanted to work on the show from the beginning, but quickly realized that his love and passion for the 60s Jonny Quest wasn't welcome under Lawrence and Takashi. After an unsuccessful attempt at pitching a retool to get the show out of the quickly deepening issues, he basically said "fuck this" and moved to Warner Bros. to do prop design until, as he recalls, Lawrence and Takashi were booted for spending two and a half years burning $11 million on what turned out to be product of unacceptable quality to Hanna Barbera. Producers Cos Anziolatti and John Eng were called in to make 26 watchable episodes out of the bits and pieces that their predecessors had managed to finish, while Doi and Houston were given the greenlight to make 26 Jonny Quest episodes out of whole cloth, redesigning the characters, replacing most of the voices, and bringing the stories more in line with classic Quest, and it was these episodes that Falk worked on.
• Peter Lawrence, for his part, denies any wrongdoing in the production issues (even debating a claim that Dick Sebast was hired first, claiming the two were hired together), instead passing the blame to HB's executives, particularly Fred Seibert (who he trashes as "a truly pathetic and self-adoring executive") and Sherry Gunther (who he apparently had such a hard time with that he accused anyone remotely willing to defend her as being paid off or otherwise friendly with her). Like I said, he regards the 60s Quest episodes as a tone-deaf relic, and really goes after Falk for trying to make his episodes more like those.

Basically, Falk and Lawrence both clearly hate each other's work, even seeming to hate each other at times. I think whomever you agree with may depend on which batch of episodes you prefer. Personally, I've never actually seen a full episode of either run, only small clips, so I don't really have a horse in the fight.

 

[Steamboat_Bill]

Backing up to the 90s, lately, I've been reading up on the production shitstorm that was The Real Adventures of Jonny Quest, particularly two interviews on fansite Questfan, one with Lance Falk and another with Peter Lawrence. Each worked on a separate incarnation of the show (Lawrence on Season 1, Falk on Season 2), and each one throws some rather pointed jabs at the other for how they handled their respective episodes. For the record, Lawrence and his partner Takashi Masunaga openly hate the original Jonny Quest from the 60s and took the job to make it "less shit", which to them meant going for what they felt was realism. Falk, on the other hand, is an OG JQ fan and, while Lawrence and Takashi were making their version, pushed for something more along those lines before finally getting his wish when Davis Doi and Larry Houston made what became known as Season 2.

The issues the show went through are probably too numerous to go into here, but for the sake of comparison, I'll just give a TL;DR of what each had to say:

• Lance Falk had wanted to work on the show from the beginning, but quickly realized that his love and passion for the 60s Jonny Quest wasn't welcome under Lawrence and Takashi. After an unsuccessful attempt at pitching a retool to get the show out of the quickly deepening issues, he basically said "fuck this" and moved to Warner Bros. to do prop design until, as he recalls, Lawrence and Takashi were booted for spending two and a half years burning $11 million on what turned out to be product of unacceptable quality to Hanna Barbera. Producers Cos Anziolatti and John Eng were called in to make 26 watchable episodes out of the bits and pieces that their predecessors had managed to finish, while Doi and Houston were given the greenlight to make 26 Jonny Quest episodes out of whole cloth, redesigning the characters, replacing most of the voices, and bringing the stories more in line with classic Quest, and it was these episodes that Falk worked on.
• Peter Lawrence, for his part, denies any wrongdoing in the production issues (even debating a claim that Dick Sebast was hired first, claiming the two were hired together), instead passing the blame to HB's executives, particularly Fred Seibert (who he trashes as "a truly pathetic and self-adoring executive") and Sherry Gunther (who he apparently had such a hard time with that he accused anyone remotely willing to defend her as being paid off or otherwise friendly with her). Like I said, he regards the 60s Quest episodes as a tone-deaf relic, and really goes after Falk for trying to make his episodes more like those.

Basically, Falk and Lawrence both clearly hate each other's work, even seeming to hate each other at times. I think whomever you agree with may depend on which batch of episodes you prefer. Personally, I've never actually seen a full episode of either run, only small clips, so I don't really have a horse in the fight.

The second season was supposed to be a different show entirely, with a different title, but it was made into another season of the Real Adventures series for some reason.

Who do you believe? I kind of lean toward Lance Falk - Lawrence goes after the executives with what I can only call John K.-style zeal, and that's not a compliment (though I doubt he's as bad); while his partner Takashi was the director of the Sanrio debacle Metamorphoses - as told by Fred Patten here (he misidentifies Masunaga as Takashi Yanase, creator of Anpanman, who I don't think ever made it to America - and it was only Masunaga who used his first name exclusively)... so to me Falk's story seems entirely possible.

Fred Seibert claims the show nearly killed the Turner-Time Warner merger, and that he apparently made a lot of bad judgments on that one.

I do have some tapes of the first season, and I kind of like them. They're fine and entertaining and all that.

But speaking of the WB, John P. McCann posted this drawing done after the WB rejected his and Paul Rugg's pitch for a primetime Daffy Duck show.

 

[Jonah Hill poster]

Cartoon Network getting rid of Thundercats Roar is kind of funny to me since I forgot they made another Thundercats years ago. I kept asking myself why do they want to make more low-grade nostalgic cartoons by trying to copy ideas that were made from previous shows that did it better.

 

[Juan's Sombrero]

Cartoon Network getting rid of Thundercats Roar is kind of funny to me since I forgot they made another Thundercats years ago. I kept asking myself why do they want to make more low-grade nostalgic cartoons by trying to copy ideas that were made from previous shows that did it better.

Stupidity

 

[Trilby]

Stupidity

Pretty much.

Thinking of that other show reminded me how shitty the Questworld sequences got. I could see why Falk did what he did in his episodes.

 

[Vyse Inglebard]

IIRC SU's first piece of official merch was a line Funko POPs featuring Garnet, Pearl, Amethyst, and Steven and they were often the butt of fandom due to the usual POP design making them (especially Pearl) look a bit creepy. That said, despite the POPs being on the low end of the totem pole they still sold enough to justify making a line of second wave (featuring Lapis, Peridot, Connie, and Lion with Pink Diamond and Stevonnie as bonus store-exclusive releases) with five variations from both line, lines of blind-box figures of varying quality, children's books based off of certain episodes (you know the ones), soundtrack releases, video games that were mostly for tablets, yadda yadda, you get the idea.

Ironically enough, the merch train started to peter out when the Ruby & Sapphire wedding special was released and was fully dead (outside of the art books and some made-to-order varsity jackets based off of the one Steven wore) once Future rolled in.

Oh, and Disney tried a similar strategy with STVOE but that one crapped out with the Funko POPs and hasn't been done for its other shows.

There were trading cards too. Kind of hard to get hold of IIRC since you had to order them from the manufacturer's site.
View attachment 3440718

>Funko Pops
>trading cards
Notice how these things are primarily what adults would buy. There are no plush toys, no pillows/blankets, no towels, nothing that kids would like from their favorite cartoon. Almost like Steven Universe wasn't actually made for kids, but instead made for man/womanchildren......

 

[starborn427614]

>Funko Pops
>trading cards
Notice how these things are primarily what adults would buy. There are no plush toys, no pillows/blankets, no towels, nothing that kids would like from their favorite cartoon. Almost like Steven Universe wasn't actually made for kids, but instead made for man/womanchildren......

Most shows dropped off a cliff ratings-wise by the end, kids were just more interested in their dang ipads and the fortnites. SU actually beat TTG multiple times, though I think the top spots were usually taken by Gumball with the former shows in 2nd and 3rd respectively.

 

[Morethanabitfoolish]

Cartoon Network getting rid of Thundercats Roar is kind of funny to me since I forgot they made another Thundercats years ago. I kept asking myself why do they want to make more low-grade nostalgic cartoons by trying to copy ideas that were made from previous shows that did it better.

Teen Titans Go is on I believe Season 7. MLP did ta similar amount I think.

The hope is they manage to get another one of those and that's close to a decade's worth of work for those involved.