Grace Lavery / Joseph Lavery & Daniel M. Lavery / Mallory Ortberg - "Straight with extra steps" couple trooning out to avoid "dwindling into mere heterosexuality"

So, in her latest substack, https://www.thechatner.com/p/some-bugs-ive-noticed-in-sid-meiers,
Mallory does her spritely, self-deprecating schtick, describing her video game addiction as though her problems are actually due to design flaws in the game (Sid Meier's Civilization Six). There are some nice touches. She captures something about how the war-gaming experience feels, but with some social-critical overtones too. Then toward the end, she abruptly drops this in:
  • I neither like nor respect my mother but sometimes I still involuntarily remember all the nice little things she did for me when I was a kid and I don’t like that.
Wow. My interest in Mallory tends more to the tragic than the comedic. I really admired her work, a lot of it anyway. Even now, if this were a fictional narrator, I'd say that surprising turn was brilliant and poignant. In real life, though.... do you think she's assuming that her mother will see these words, or that she won't?

If Mom or Dad Ortberg (or Johnny!) was blogging about the family estrangement, I'd totally be reading that stuff too. But they have more sense. It looks like the pastor-Dad is quietly trying to put his career back together.
https://julieroys.com/opinion-john-ortberg-problem-replatforming-leaders/
It's a sign of some severe immaturity that she can't stand recognizing both the good and the bad about her mom. It's not like her mom was even severely abusive, from what I recall, just "not supportive" or some shit like that. But even a severely abusive parent wasn't 100% evil 100% of your life, odds are decent there was a time she threw a great birthday party or was really nice when you were ill. Adults who are anything resembling sane and balanced can recognize that as part of their grief about the rest.
 
So, in her latest substack, https://www.thechatner.com/p/some-bugs-ive-noticed-in-sid-meiers,
Mallory does her spritely, self-deprecating schtick, describing her video game addiction as though her problems are actually due to design flaws in the game (Sid Meier's Civilization Six). There are some nice touches. She captures something about how the war-gaming experience feels, but with some social-critical overtones too. Then toward the end, she abruptly drops this in:
  • I neither like nor respect my mother but sometimes I still involuntarily remember all the nice little things she did for me when I was a kid and I don’t like that.
Wow. My interest in Mallory tends more to the tragic than the comedic. I really admired her work, a lot of it anyway. Even now, if this were a fictional narrator, I'd say that surprising turn was brilliant and poignant. In real life, though.... do you think she's assuming that her mother will see these words, or that she won't?

If Mom or Dad Ortberg (or Johnny!) was blogging about the family estrangement, I'd totally be reading that stuff too. But they have more sense. It looks like the pastor-Dad is quietly trying to put his career back together.
https://julieroys.com/opinion-john-ortberg-problem-replatforming-leaders/
I listened to a recent episode of the (unlistenable) Dear Prudence podcast in which Mallory describes learning a new way to make tuna salad and really wishing she could call her mom and share that with her, she knew her mom would be genuinely interested and happy to hear this minor little tip about tuna salad. It was extremely odd in the wider context of her many tweets wishing death on her father.
 
I listened to a recent episode of the (unlistenable) Dear Prudence podcast in which Mallory describes learning a new way to make tuna salad and really wishing she could call her mom and share that with her, she knew her mom would be genuinely interested and happy to hear this minor little tip about tuna salad. It was extremely odd in the wider context of her many tweets wishing death on her father.
Mallory, you’re in a cult, go call your mom. There is zero weirdness in a parent being sad someone chooses to amputate part of their body. That is normal for anyone to be sad. The fact they supported you anyway to the point you called your dad a good man *during that time* is telling. You’re mad they didn’t sell your brother out in the hardest time of his life and that actually makes you the bad one.

Grow a pair and act like a normal man who never turns on his mother. A real guy, a real man? They don’t do that stuff unless the mom sold them into sex slavery and even then there’s a fair amount of men who would still not estrange their parents.

This is vindictive female stuff. An epic Karen tantrum. Which makes sense I guess.
 
mallory-ortberg-sitting-hard.PNG
Mallory seems to think this is because she's getting old but it's probably because she's fat
 
A late response but since it hasn't yet been addressed:

From @Trianon's audio excerpt at https://kiwifarms.net/threads/grace...-mallory-ortberg.77242/page-195#post-11601661

LAVERY: Yes, I can understand why people will hold the view that there was a naturally occurring organic type. Ah, after all, that is what patriarchy tells us every day. And it is a very difficult view to get your head out of, and yet...

INTERVIEWER: Are you saying, are you saying, sorry if I may before I go to a bigger point, are you saying that every woman that believes that, is effectively having their mind warped by patriarchy?

LAVERY: Ah, I wouldn't use that phrase. I think that it is difficult to think one's way out of structures that one is informed of frequently. If you believe...

INTERVIEWER: 'cause some, 'cause the irony is some of those people are very much feminists and have thought nothing but about patriarchy and how to think their way out of those structures and still come to the conclusion that is the male body retains an advantage over the female bodies.

LAVERY: [smacks lips] I think it makes sense to refer to sex as real and important and determinative and deserving of respect, when it comes to traits, I do not think it makes sense to refer to an (sic) higher organisms as though they always and inevitably possess the sexual characteristics which single organism (sic). Ah, as to the question of whether or not many of the people arguing on this on behalf of the question of naturally occurring types or woman as a naturally occurring type are feminists, it's beyond doubt at this point that there are some feminists who do take that view but that but (sic) that all I would say that's a profound historical novelty. I do not think you could find a single feminist who would take that view prior to Caitlyn Jenner appearing on the front cover of Vanity Fair. I think historically the notion that woman is a natural type deserving of specific and enumerated sex-based rights is precisely what feminism was created to oppose.

INTERVIEWER: You have written, "I am quite sure that women's rights are not, have never been and must never be sex-based." How can you say that with such surety?

LAVERY: Well again, I say it on the basis of twenty years of active research and teaching in the field. I have been doing this work for a long time. The notion of sex-based rights is a very recent phenomenon that hasn't existed more than a few years, it's a really bad deal for women, and I don't say that as a trans woman, I don't say that as anyone other than a scholar of feminism.

Everything that Lavery stated in this interview is either fallacious or factually false but I'll restrict this post to only the history of sex-based rights.

The notion of sex-based rights has existed at least since the 18th century. The earliest exponent that I am aware of is Olympe de Gouges. Many sex-based rights--or at least the campaigns for them--emerged from modern medical advances, so it would be anachronistic to expect Gouges to argue for access to (safe medical) abortion, for example. That notwithstanding, she does advocate for female-specific rights in other domains of female experience. Gouges' advocacy is distributed over her essays, novels, articles, plays, and pamphlets (see https://www.olympedegouges.eu/index.php). The closest writing to a "manifesto" would be her Declaration of the Rights of Women and the Female Citizen. However, this writing is not concerned with sex-based rights (with perhaps the exception of Article 11 ) and can be regarded as proto-liberal feminism. It is essentially Gouges' proto-feminist response to The Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen.

Some of the sex-based rights that Gouges championed were: state-provided welfare for widows, the legalization and regulation of prostitution, civil rights for unmarried mothers and their illegitimate children, the state-enforced financial obligation of men to their out-of-wedlock progeny and their mothers,
state-sponsored refuges for women (and their children) fleeing domestic violence and hospitals dedicated exclusively to maternity.

Regardless of whether you are persuaded by Gouges' arguments or that what has come to be known as "difference feminism" makes up only a small portion of her written work, Gouges nevertheless recognizes a need for sex-based rights and advocates for them. Thus the idea that sex-based rights are a "historical novelty" and originated in the 21st century is patently false.

Further, the property of an idea being historically novel does not somehow delegitimize that idea. In the history of ideas every idea was at some point sui generis, a new and unique concept. Intellectual history is characterised by a series of new ideas that were at the time of their conception historically novel. Whether an idea is derivative or novel has no bearing on its validity. An intellectually honest person will evaluate an idea based on its merits. Claiming that sex-based rights are a recent invention and asserting that they are somehow vaguely a product of the patriarchy does not amount to an argument against sex-based rights. Lavery has provided no argument against sex-based rights. His naive suppressed premises are that "new ideas are necessarily illegitimate" and "any ideology that doesn't valorize uniform sexual equality is antifeminist". Nowhere has Lavery argued for either of these enthymemes.
 
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Wtf, Mallory is 35! She should have no problem doing anything like sitting down on the fucking floor. What a disturbing thing to admit.
She's fat and also the testosterone and god knows whatever other drugs or hormones she's taking are wrecking her body.

I think we're only at the beginning of understanding the long term effects of cross-sex hormones on the body. Same with blockers, all this unnatural tampering. We only have hints but negative outcomes are strongly suppressed, politically smothered. In fifty years they'll probably look back in horror.
 
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Mallory seems to think this is because she's getting old but it's probably because she's fat
Tons of 35 year-old women, especially in her social class, are mothers to infants and toddlers. Not only are they constantly getting up and down from sitting on the floor, they often do so while hauling a few dozen pounds of child up and down with them.

The average well-off mommy is more of a Chad than the average FTM even before factoring in Mal's depression and obesity.
 
Ah, as to the question of whether or not many of the people arguing on this on behalf of the question of naturally occurring types or woman as a naturally occurring type are feminists, it's beyond doubt at this point that there are some feminists who do take that view but that but (sic) that all I would say that's a profound historical novelty. I do not think you could find a single feminist who would take that view prior to Caitlyn Jenner appearing on the front cover of Vanity Fair.
Joe's theory is that before Caitlyn Jenner appeared on a magazine cover feminists didn't believe women to be a naturally occurring type? Who were feminists arguing for then? And on what basis?

What does he think the arguments were for and against women's suffrage? And why does he think it took so long? Why does he think states that allowed women's suffrage at the Founding reversed course and eliminated it? All these people on both sides of the debate over centuries didn't recognize women as naturally occurring? They allowed black men to vote but not white women because they observed the former to be performing in the non-submissive role during sex first?
 
So, in her latest substack, https://www.thechatner.com/p/some-bugs-ive-noticed-in-sid-meiers,
Mallory does her spritely, self-deprecating schtick, describing her video game addiction as though her problems are actually due to design flaws in the game (Sid Meier's Civilization Six). There are some nice touches. She captures something about how the war-gaming experience feels, but with some social-critical overtones too. Then toward the end, she abruptly drops this in:
  • I neither like nor respect my mother but sometimes I still involuntarily remember all the nice little things she did for me when I was a kid and I don’t like that.
This is so on-brand for Mallory that it's painful. Recall that the highest-profile thing she's ever done was to sum up Black Mirror as "what if phones but too much," which Charlie Brooker thought was hilarious and he put it into several Black Mirror episodes as Easter eggs, and then Mallory got mad because she didn't like Black Mirror and couldn't stand to see Charlie Brooker scoring off of her. She decides in advance what fuck-you positions she's going to take--fuck you, Mom! Fuck you, Black Mirror! Fuck you, mainstream society!--and then she'll defend them beyond all reason because they're part of her "look" now. It's funny how the ones who claim not to care what people think of them turn out to be the ones who care the most about maintaining their edgy outsider image.
 
Joe's theory is that before Caitlyn Jenner appeared on a magazine cover feminists didn't believe women to be a naturally occurring type? Who were feminists arguing for then? And on what basis?

What does he think the arguments were for and against women's suffrage? And why does he think it took so long? Why does he think states that allowed women's suffrage at the Founding reversed course and eliminated it? All these people on both sides of the debate over centuries didn't recognize women as naturally occurring? They allowed black men to vote but not white women because they observed the former to be performing in the non-submissive role during sex first?
Troons already got used to people believing their own bullshit version of Stonewall, and there are people still alive who were there. What's a little more historical revisionism?

Actually, historical revisionism implies effort. This is straight up "making shit up as you go".
 
I feel like Grace is mainly for abortion because it means less children.
Joe's theory is that before Caitlyn Jenner appeared on a magazine cover feminists didn't believe women to be a naturally occurring type? Who were feminists arguing for then? And on what basis?

And imagine being so high on postmodern word games that you think “woman” is an arbitrary label.
 
His horror over sex based rights is all about the exceptions women have in the Equality Act 2010, which of course men such as him consider to mean him too. Ancient troons like Christine Chipmunk Burns and OCD train spotting legal troon Robin White claim that single sex always meant whatever troons wanted it to mean.

They are having a war of words about blankets with EHRC who are giving the creepy old men the bums rush. About time too.

 
I'd watch a professors symposium where Joe and Rhys try to figure out what gender and sex are.

I went back and forth on whether or not to call it a "debate" but I decided that while I imagine they'd agree in principle they'd have to show their superiority over the other which would manifest in petty disputes over meaningless points.
 
The whole gender ideology thing is people trying to gaslight society into thinking that things that are deeply obvious with very, very few outliers are actually super-complicated and ambiguous. Human beings: random assortments of body parts disconnected from nature.

That reminds me. The whole idea that “queer” relationships are inherently more interesting and complex than straight ones…. isn’t dating someone of the same sex inherently less “diverse”? You see screwing someone who is by definition more similar to you than they could be. Not that Grace has to worry about that, because he is a straight guy married to a straight woman who fucks other women on the side.
 
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