The Holocaust Thread - The Great Debate Between Affirmers, Revisionists and Deniers

[Bonesjones]

Nice forum slide faggots. You are still so bad at arguing your own points you routinely fall into holocaust denial and revision.

 

[Haramburger]

Btw many of my posts have been deleted by mods for double posting. The norm against double posting makes sense and I was rather petty to push back against it. I will abide by it going forward.

None of the content was lost, I simply merged the latter post into the former in most instances. The only thing lost in this action are some of the reaction stickers.

Also taking this opportunity to thank you for consistently engaging on this subject with the other posters. Holocaust denial is an outright crime in Germany, which I think we can all agree antagonizes folks who are questioning and curious. There are very few places for people of opposite opinions on Holocaust facts to openly discuss elements of "Did this happen? Did it happen to the extent of what is common opinion? What else could have happened?". Even though it's the same handful of people posting, there's typically tens of lurkers if not hundreds reading along silently because they for one reason or another don't want to engage, but are deeply curious about the subject. It's really healthy for the subforum and the site in general to have these differing viewpoints meet, clash, and circle back around each other with a minimum of shitflinging. Debate is healthy and normal. Keep it up!

 

[Lemmingwise]

This kabuki play shit is weak as fuck and to distract from:

1. Your continued lack to answer @Bonesjones request for physical evidence of mass gassing at auschwitz, or even sufficient mass graves and/or remains to support the numbers.

2. Your comical assertion that germany could just turn cash into fuel (meaning they would have never had a fuel shortage, just a cash shortage).

3. That you most likely already know each other. Don't try this fake bullshit here and try to be straight and honest like a man.

4. That you say there are a lot of deniers in this thread and have not yet been able to identify four. It should have been an easy task.

---

Being called intelligent or best of the bunch by two guys when 90% of my posts in the last 10 pages has been calling them disingenuous or dishonest is pretty funny, ngl.

Do you think I'm intelligent because I'm seeing right through you?

---

Overall it's the character that biases me against you. There have been people in this thread convinced the official narrative is true, but they acted like normal people instead of shills. They shared personal stories. They admitted fault when mistaken, like the guy who claimed his grandfather liberated auschwitz for the americans (lmao).

Of course there is some back and forth, like stabmaster thinking a typo is some huge own, or historyspeaks reading a message wrong and unwilling to admit his mistake.

But why is it it practically nonexistant to have an affirmist with some personality? Who instead of acting like a religious zealot, is willing to reconsider any specific position? Who when faced with a piece of evidence or person they don't seem to be very familiar with, dismiss and ignore it instead of becoming curious and diving into it?

Instead of making 10 posts, you could have gotten halfway into eli wiesel's book, for example. Rapechu humored chugger and no doubt regretted it, as chugger continued to deflect, redirect, even if the subject itself was a tainted path to begin with as it is a literal begging the question perspective.

At this point I don't think I'll ever run into an affirmist who

1. Acts with intellectual integrity
2. Seems to be just some guy shooting the shit
3. Has some curiosity

The bar is literally just to be some guy that is worth talking to.

And this low bar is never met. My conclusion is that this topic sorts all guys who meet that bar of entry somewhere on the revisionist side.

 

[Bonesjones]

They've both shown their hand and admitted they are doing it to drive podcasts. They are probably hoping they will get rage watchers or something, not realizing no one here actually cares beyond shitposting whenever it suites.

I think most people only get the normal holocaust narrative from school or the media and never look further. I remember being the only one suspicious about the facts when I was a kid, then when I was actually exposed to the facts and arguments put forth I realized it was total bullshit. I think most people are just never exposed to either besides the condescension associated with denial.

There's a reason they all spout the ridiculous mantra "it's the most documented event in history!", they don't want any further examination. They'll happily drag out any footage that shows the terrible conditions of the camps and anything that can be misconstrued to support their point. Then they brick wall any further investigation.

It reminds me of the supposed ground radar testing they did in Canada outside of the Indian school saying they found graves all over the place, which was soon revealed to be entirely bullshit. They want enough evidence that supports what they say, but they don't want to go through the work of actually proving it because it's a web of lies that falls apart.

 

[Lemmingwise]

My own experience is markedly different. I had no reason to doubt it. I just had a period in my life devoted to challenging any taboo and seeing if the official truth was true or not. Then I discovered there are are three big lies about the holocaust. The first is the numbers, the second is the gas chambers and the third is that those who disagree with the official narrative don't even acknowledge that there were camps, that people died and that jews were persecuted.
In reality, the bar for being a denier is so low, that even those who defend it often would be marked a denier. I've been called it repeatedly, including in this thread, despite being more of an agnost on the subject.
Historyspeaks had the candour to define it, but then also tripped up immediately as he tried to bring arguments that didn't work with that definition.

For me personally, I couldn't maintain belief in the official holocaust story. Movies like denial and the life and work of david irving don't make sense otherwise. Same with david cole.

web of lies that falls apart

Mixing metaphores here. It's a house of cards that falls apart.
Webs of lies get tangled.

 

[History Speaks]

None of the content was lost, I simply merged the latter post into the former in most instances. The only thing lost in this action are some of the reaction stickers.

Also taking this opportunity to thank you for consistently engaging on this subject with the other posters. Holocaust denial is an outright crime in Germany, which I think we can all agree antagonizes folks who are questioning and curious. There are very few places for people of opposite opinions on Holocaust facts to openly discuss elements of "Did this happen? Did it happen to the extent of what is common opinion? What else could have happened?". Even though it's the same handful of people posting, there's typically tens of lurkers if not hundreds reading along silently because they for one reason or another don't want to engage, but are deeply curious about the subject. It's really healthy for the subforum and the site in general to have these differing viewpoints meet, clash, and circle back around each other with a minimum of shitflinging. Debate is healthy and normal. Keep it up!

I am completely opposed to laws and censorship against Holocaust denial, for a couple reasons.

First, some deniers are genuine, and it is unjust to punish people for honestly held beliefs about what happened in history, even if (as is the case here) those beliefs are dumb, offensive, and ill informed.

Second, if you allow the state and Silicon Valley to suppress Holocaust denial, you are by implication giving them the power to police questions of historical truth. I do not trust them to exercise such a power.

In terms of my effectiveness, I am optimistic in the long run.

In the short term, you are never going to get people to change their mind. 99% of people in internet debates (not just over Holocaust denial) will refuse to concede defeat in real time. In the heat of the moment, people go with their priors and emotional self interest.

But over time, as emotions cool, the points you make can resonate with some people on the other side (not most, but some). I am hoping that happens with some number of deniers, and think it will happen.

 

[Haramburger]

I am completely opposed to laws and censorship against Holocaust denial, for a couple reasons.

First, some deniers are genuine, and it is unjust to punish people for honestly held beliefs about what happened in history, even if (as is the case here) those beliefs are dumb, offensive, and ill informed.

Second, if you allow the state and Silicon Valley to suppress Holocaust denial, you are by implication giving them the power to police questions of historical truth. I do not trust them to exercise such a power.

All truth and good ideas should hold up under scrutiny. If it's repeated scrutiny, then it's like your arguments are training with a sandbag in the gym, getting swole.

 

[Lemmingwise]

I am hoping that happens with some number of deniers

If any even exist among the people that post seriously in this thread.

 

[History Speaks]

All truth and good ideas should hold up under scrutiny. If it's repeated scrutiny, then it's like your arguments are training with a sandbag in the gym, getting swole.

One irony however is that deniers themselves tend to be extremely censorious in the few spaces they control. I got censored from the CODOH website under a completely sham pretext. So have many other "affirmers" and even deniers who asked the wrong questions.

Kiwifarms is a reprehensible website but is half redeemed by its commitment to free speech, which extends to this debate.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Kiwifarms is a reprehensible website

You know where the door is, but we both know you'll never leave.

Found any deniers in the thread yet? Should I keep watch? Keep a light on at night to scare them away?

 

[Bonesjones]

One irony however is that deniers themselves tend to be extremely censorious in the few spaces they control. I got censored from the CODOH website under a completely sham pretext. So have many other "affirmers" and even deniers who asked the wrong questions.

Kiwifarms is a reprehensible website but is half redeemed by its commitment to free speech, which extends to this debate.

Hey look I'm right again. Codoh is interested in historical revision and doesn't have to waste time letting kids like you waste their time with your shitty tactics. That's their prerogative. Don't be mad they refuse to let you behave the way you want to, lucky for you we just call you a stupid nigger instead.

The only way you and chugger could be even dumber is if the reason you are doing this is because you are both communist true believers looking for Soviet redemption during WW2. Which wouldn't surprise me at all.

 

[Chugger]

Rapechu humored chugger and no doubt regretted it, as chugger continued to deflect, redirect, even if the subject itself was a tainted path to begin with as it is a literal begging the question perspective.

Rapechu more than humored me.

He made long posts (far longer than mine) that left him "exhausted" as he scoured the internet for evidence of resettlement. A few days later he "conceded" that millions of Jews must have died of hunger or were shot in the East, a clear break from the hardcore denier position of Codoh/metapedia/Holocaust Handbooks that holds 250k to 750k Jews died in total during the war. A few days after this he left the forum, seemingly forever.

What in your mind is the single most glaring subject (and devastating to the orthodox case) that has been deflected or redirected from? I'll try to address it in detail.

eg, for your side, you've deflected and redirected from the assertion that it would be practically impossible for millions of Jews to be resettled and maintained in German held USSR without leaving a shred of evidence

 

[Bonesjones]

Lol that Adolf Hitler post has Chugger down to a T.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Rapechu more than humored me.

He made long posts (far longer than mine) that left him "exhausted" as he scoured the internet for evidence of resettlement. A few days later he "conceded" that millions of Jews must have died of hunger or were shot in the East, a clear break from the hardcore denier position of Codoh/metapedia/Holocaust Handbooks that holds 250k to 750k Jews died in total during the war. A few days after this he left the forum, seemingly forever.

What in your mind is the single most glaring subject (and devastating to the orthodox case) that has been deflected or redirected from? I'll try to address it in detail.

eg, for your side, you've deflected and redirected from the assertion that it would be practically impossible for millions of Jews to be resettled and maintained in German held USSR without leaving a shred of evidence

People can literally follow your link, read the posts on that page, and see how significantly you're misrepresenting things. Fore example, he never made the post that millions of jews must have died. If I'm wrong, you could literally quote where he said that. But you can't. This is why it's so exhausting for him or anyone else that tries to take you seriously; it takes time and effort to expose that you continually lie, misrepresent, deceive.

And this is at the same time why you're have little success, because although at first it helps to slow things down, but once a couple of people have taken that effort, they're so sick of your dishonest shit that they can't take seriously anything you say.

 

[Chugger]

If I'm wrong, you could literally quote where he said that. But you can't. This is why it's so exhausting for him or anyone else that tries to take you seriously; it takes time and effort to expose that you continually lie, misrepresent, deceive.

His post is too long to quote so I'll screenshot

Do you have anything to add here? I think it's a pretty clear cut case.

 

[Lemmingwise]

Do you have anything to add here?

Yes. I was wrong and made a mistake in my last post.

Read that sentence a couple of times. It's something you two can learn from.

To be clear, it was the only mistake. I'm so tired of your shit at this point that I didn't do due diligence this once. That's on me. There are still deceptions in your post, but considering I elevated one point in particular and was proven wrong on it, I'll accept that they go uncorrected for the moment.

Read those sentences again. There's a position that holocaust historians and the gatekeepers they hide behind could take a leaf from.

 

[Chugger]

To be clear, it was the only mistake. I'm so tired of your shit at this point that I didn't do due diligence this once.

Well let's put this mistake behind us, it's no big deal. But humor me, can you point to another "significant" misrepresentation on my part? I'm just an amateur engaging in internet bloodsport so I'm bound to make small mistakes here and there, but I think you're talking about something more serious--intentional deception? That I'm lying should be blatant and obvious.

Also I asked you to name a single important topic that has been deflected or redirected from, so it can be addressed in detail.

Unlike you guys, I'll gladly answer any historical question.

 

[Bonesjones]

Yes. I was wrong and made a mistake in my last post.

Read that sentence a couple of times. It's something you two can learn from.

To be clear, it was the only mistake. I'm so tired of your shit at this point that I didn't do due diligence this once. That's on me. There are still deceptions in your post, but considering I elevated one point in particular and was proven wrong on it, I'll accept that they go uncorrected for the moment.

Read those sentences again. There's a position that holocaust historians and the gatekeepers they hide behind could take a leaf from.

You are falling for Chugger's editorializing again. Dying of starvation or as partisan/conscripts is still holocaust denial. Remember, Chugger said they were gassed and cremated in Belzec. We suggested they went east instead. Rapechu might agree they died to German forces. That doesn't make it a part of the Holocaust. It has to be an intentional genocide not just a mass killing. This is the narrative in a nutshell. Make the outlandish claim that the Nazis industrialized the genocide of jews. Be unable to support that position, so add up every bad thing they did to bolster their original point by moving the goal posts.

 

[Lemmingwise]

You are falling for Chugger's editorializing again. Dying of starvation or as partisan/conscripts is still holocaust denial. Remember, Chugger said they were gassed and cremated in Belzec. We suggested they went east instead. Rapechu might agree they died to German forces. That doesn't make it a part of the Holocaust. It has to be an intentional genocide not just a mass killing. This is the narrative in a nutshell. Make the outlandish claim that the Nazis industrialized the genocide of jews. Be unable to support that position, so add up every bad thing they did to bolster their original point by moving the goal posts.

I am well aware, but I made a specific request and that was fulfilled.

That's not really falling for it so much as me putting my foot in my mouth and not wording things precisely. There are still 5 or 6 points I want to follow up on that I haven't had the chance to yet and probably won't for the next day or two considering how busy I'll be.

 

[History Speaks]

I agree with the new approach suggested by Chugger.

Lemming and co - How about you raise a single, specific Holocaust-related issue on which you think I am "dodging." I will answer it.

After I answer it, explain specifically (not with a canned general phrase about how "affirmationists dodge", but with concrete and specific points) how in your view I am dodging or failing to provide a satisfactory answer.

This approach will allow us to zero in on specific issues rather than falling back on vague talking points like "science makes it impossible", "affirmationists lack intellectual curiosity," etc.>

Side note - it appears that, despite being woefully outnumbered by deniers on this thread, Chugger did indeed move the guy about whom you are speaking away from denial to some extent, though not entirely. Rapechu acknowledges that most Jews in Nazi custody died, presumably because of the problem of Where did They Go?, i.e. the problem of the disappeared millions of Jews in the Nazi camp system and the total lack of evidence for the hypothesized transiting of Jews out of the camps into a permanent resettlement.

Obviously, the goal would be to get him to accept the truth about Nazi extermination by gassing and mass shooting, but he is moving in the right direction. And it is also noteworthy that, after admitting that most Jews in Nazi custody must have died, Rapechu vanished from the forum.